I think you could consider the newer Buick V6 engine from a Rear Wheel Drive (RWD) GM car from years 1975 - 1987. The Front Wheel Drive (FWD) GM car Buick V6 (1985 - 2006) has a different bellhousing than the RWD V6, and won't work. The motor mounts on the FWD Buick V6 are different than the RWD V6. The cost to upgrade to a RWD Buick V6 would be less money than a Chevy 350 because the newer Buick V6 uses the same bellhousing and motor mounts as the Jeep / Buick 225. The alternator bracket, water pump, pulleys, and other engine parts interchange from the 225 the newer Buick V6. The Jeep / Buick 225 is an odd fire engine. GM changed the Buick V6 to even fire in mid year production 1977. The manual transmission flywheel from the 225 will ONLY work on the GM RWD Buick V6 odd fire engines from 1975 to mid year production 1977. The manual transmission flywheel for an even fire RWD Buick V6 is not easy to find used in a salvage yard, but new manual transmission flywheels are available from companies like Advance Adapter$. There were several changes to the Buick V6 during it's 40+ years of production...so it's not a simple find a newer Buick V6 and your good to go. The best years to get a RWD Buick V6 from would be either a 1979 or 1980 model year. 1979 started the production of the improved heads for better performance, and 1980 was the last year that the carburetor and distributor were the simple non-computer controlled types.

But for all out fun, you could build yourself a Chevy 350 eating Buick V6 like mine. It has Fuel Injection, it's a project for an advanced cla$$ of Buick V6 engine building.
dave

 

Alright Dave, I thought I was the only one who likes the 231. Confess how you got the fuel injection on there!! I have heard of people using the intake and tb off of newer engines but as you know there isin't much swap info out there on these. I have one in my 68 and it runs sweet. We have built several of them over the years and used to do a little drag racing with a sunbird powered with a 231 and 350 hydro.

Anyway If I remember right you can bolt your tranny to a 350 bell housing. There is a ton o info on advances adapters site. I think it requires some drilling. Check out their site, it has good info on the 350 swap.


I just need to figure out how to make the sm465 bolt to my 231 on the cheap and I can finnish my cj.

 

Anyway If I remember right you can bolt your tranny to a 350 bell housing. There is a ton o info on advances adapters site. I think it requires some drilling. Check out their site, it has good info on the 350 swap.

I just need to figure out how to make the sm465 bolt to my 231 on the cheap and I can finnish my cj.

I'll detail the Fuel Injection conversion later this weekend.

The transmission options for a Buick V6??? Hmmmmmmmmm, the Turbo 350 automatic transmission came in three different bellhousing bolt patterns, Buick / Oldsmobile / Pontiac (BOP), Chevrolet, and Universal which could be bolted to either BOP or Chevrolet. The Turbo 350 is not a good choice (in my humble opinion) for a CJ5 because of the it's length and the length of the transfer case adapters. I once measured a Turbo 350 adapted to a Jeep Dana 300 transfer case at almost 36 inches from the engine mating surface to the center of the output u-joint of the Dana 300. For a CJ7 the Turbo 350 is OK.

The low co$t thought I have for using a SM465 on a BOP manual transmission bellhousing, would be to have the front bearing retainer of the SM465 machined to a smaller diameter to fit the smaller diameter center hole of a BOP manual transmission bellhousing. I don't remember the actual measurements, I seem to remember SM465 bearing retainer is about 0.250 inches larger in diameter than the car version Muncie / Saginaw front bearing retainer? Once the front bearing retainer fits inside the BOP bellhousing, then new bolt holes could be drilled to the SM465 bolt pattern?

dave

 

Dave's right about the looooong 350 trans.
I have an M38a1 - military version of the CJ5.
It has a Chev 350 into a Turbo 350 into a D-18 t-case into locked 5.88 D-44's.

It's so long the driveshaft is only about 8"! Rear suspension can't flex much like that!
I bought it like that. I didn't buy it to use, I wanted all the goodies on it. It's a wheel stander. It impresses kids, not me.

I'm getting to old to use the goodies, so contemplating getting rid of it.

A few things to consider:
Chevy - distributor/firewall clearance is a problem. Buick 350 the dist is in front.

It's longer than the V6 - front lower crossmember interferes. Either the engine has to sit way up over it (causing more problems,) or the crossmember has to be modified - to clear the crank pulley. You can't just eliminate the crossmember - it'll be too weak.

Cooling - the stock cooling system isn't adaquate - you need a bigger radiator - then figure how to mount it - you've already used too much room for the engine.

Strength of the diffs - even a stock 350 has more torque than they can take.

If I keep it, I'd stretch the frame and body about 18". Then I'd have a decent driveshaft and be able to get in and out of it too. I struggle to get my big feet past the cage. Needs a new cage too.

And then there's the smog issues, depending on your State (and state of mind.)

I can provide pics of mine if it will help. Just say what you need to see.

But - those I've seen are lots of fun!

Going to the even fire 231 loses the bottom end "grunt" of the odd fires.
The oddfires can pull a hill at a sub-idle speed. Their bottom end torque is unbelievable. But they aren't race cars.

Did you know a land speed record was set with 225 odd fire at Bonneville? The class record still stands! Bonneville is shorter now, not enough room to beat the record.

Did you know the 231 odd fire ran at Indy? And lost, but it tried.
(He He - I doubt either was still stock.)

Lots of info on the Jeepster board about conversions. There's even some info on putting on fuel injection. But not very many have done it.

Dave, any info about your experience adding FI would be greatly appreciated. Pics too if possible.

 

Here is a link to the post I made on the Jeepster board awhile back. The pictures were taken just minutes after getting the engine running for the first time. I have programed my own custom PROM chip to prevent error codes for emission equipment I have disabled. I don't need an EGR or any of that other stuff! I run closed loop, so none of the fuel / air / spark programming has been changed...well expect to help the WOT operation.:laugh:

http://forums.off-road.com/jeepster...com/jeepster-american-jeepster-club/219332-rwd-buick-3-8-mpfi-making-noise.html

It's a good running engine, for the $$$$ and time invested. A SBC for the same $$$$ and time invested will have better overall performance. The Buick Grand National parts I used are expen$ive!! eBay was my only source for the Buick Grand National parts, and let me say things don't always sell for low dollar on eBay! The Buick Electra parts are difficult to find in a salvage yard. The Buick Electra wiring harness is the most critical part to find....getting 6 out of 7 winning lottery numbers is easier than finding an uncut Electra wiring harness! A custom made wiring harness would be very very expensive!!!!! I think my set up is a one of kind? All the engine fuel injection service parts can still be purchased new or reconditioned at most any auto parts store, but expect to wait a day or two to get what's needed and getting sale prices just won't happen.

The question you have answer...is a SBC an easy affordable fit for the Jeep. The Buick V6, even without EFI is still a KICK A$$ engine for the money.

By the way...I now have a Buick Supercharger in the garage...maybe soon I will have my MPFI running a late model Eaton Supercharger? Custom machine work required.

I always say the GM engineers aren't any smarter than me, the GM Engineers have just crammed their heads with knowledge I don't know yet.oo:

dave

 

Using a late model Chevy with the stock DIS would solve the clearance issues for the distributor - no distributor! And it would be a great set-up.
I'm sure they are pricey at the wrecking yard. Best way would be to buy a crashed one for cheap - if you can find one.

But using a late model engine creates smog issues too, depending on where it's licensed. In Calif it's doable, but lots of paperwork.

Steve never filled out his profile, so we don't know where he hails from.

 

Hello All

This has been great feed back. I am in Oregon and Smog is not a problem because of the age of the my Jeep. But what I think I am hearing is that the 225 and 231 are real good fits for my Jeep and it would be a good overall fit for the way I intend on using this jeep.

Right now my jeep has the Buick 225 with a Edelbrock 450 sitting on a Offenhauser intake. I have converted the Dist to a electronic points already. Behind it I have a T14 with a Dana 18 single lever transfer case.

I have not switch it over to a Saginaw steering system yet but it on my list also on my list is to switch the front drum brake system to a Disc brake.

I have not decided where to add an over drive it but I am thinking about it.

Steve

 

Hi Steve,
I live in Vancouver Washington. Maybe if you get up my way...I can show and tell on my projects?
dave

 

Hi Dave

I would like that. I live in Beaverton but work in San Jose so I am home on the weekends.

Steve

 

Check out DeBiase EFI for many of the technical details for converting to EFI. Ok the DeBiase EFI site is for using the Buick V6 EFI system on a Dodge slant 6.

Well for my EFI conversion, I was able to use GM Buick V6 parts with almost no modifications. In my case I used Buick Grand National, along with Buick Electra and/or Park Avenue parts.

dave

 

I've kept a few notes about the 225 and the Even Fire Buick 3.8 V6 (1979 - 1987).

In the late 70's most editors of Hot Rod Magazine favored the ODD Fire for performance. Then in the mid 80's, the pendulum of opinion swung to the EVEN Fire. Many improvements to the EVEN Fire block oiling system, turbo crank design with radius fillets, the super strong two dot connecting rods, and the deep breathing high port heads, the Even Fire was considered the "Better Engine" by the early 80's. Most of the aftermarket performance parts suppliers all but abandoned the Odd Fire in the 80's. Edelbrock still makes a 4 barrel dual plane intake manifold for the 79 and newer high port Even Fire Heads.

It's my very own personal humble opinion, yes the Odd Fire could win on the Dyno with lots of $$$ thrown at it. I feel the very poor oiling system, weaker crank, weaker rods, and heads that "gasp for air" of the Odd Fire make the Odd Fire a good engine, not a better engine. Of course, hands down, if you want the "best" in Buick V6 performance, the Stage II would be my choice!

The Buick V6 saw just over 40+ years of production, including factory superchargers, factory turbo chargers, using multi-port fuel injection. Some very expert engine builders have surpassed the 1000+ Horsepower with the Buick Grand National Buick V6:shocked:

I really have to wonder would Toyota have ever designed a V6 for the Toyota pickup if it were not for the popular Buick V6 conversion done to the early versions of the 4WD Toyota pickups. I really wonder will Toyota still have it's V6 engine lasting 40+ years of production. I wonder will very experts engine builders be making 1000+ Horsepower with a Toyota V6???

 

Dave I don't disagree the even fires are better all around. The Odd-fires have an internal problem with vibration that makes it more difficult to run at high R's. Balance becomes even more critical.

Selecting/deciding what the intended use is for becomes the question.

For a fast street machine the even fire 231 is a good choice, lots of goodies are still around. Myself, I'd look more toward a later 4.3, stock it has FI, HEI, the stuff that would have to be retrofitted to a 231. Plus there are lots of "goodies" for them too.
I have 2 of them in high mileage Astro vans - lots of power and still reliable. (I prefer the '95 over the '97.) I recently sold another ('89) with untouched 330,000 miles on it - still running strong!

The odd fires lend themselves nicely to off road - because of the low RPM guts.
The T-case Lo range in the D-18 and 20 wasn't very low. The ability to still "pull" hard at speeds below normal idle helped with the fact those T-cases were geared so high. It can still pull hills at a sub idle speed where other engines can't even stay running unloaded.
Yes, I've wheeled with both odd and even. The first time I jiggled up a hill at 200 RPM (sub idle) I was amazed. I still love that feeling.

So - the choice is street/drag machine or crawler. High R's power or low R's guts.

BTW - for the 225 - the stock Rochester 2G and the MC2100 can be made to take the off angles in off roading pretty well. Not quite as good as EFI, but close. It's a poor man's EFI. Fit an HEI on it to really wake them up.

I've seen several, and driven several, with the Chevy 4.3. They too are impressive, plus a fairly easy swap. If I was to swap another, I'd sure lean toward '97 4.3.

 

jeep chevy / buick eng swap

ok yes a chevy 4.3 v6 is a good little motor but with that said does that not bring us back full circle. the chevy v6 is really just a chevy sb v8 with two cyl cut off.. it has the same bolt pattern and even all the bolt on like the pulleys . altn etc will interchange from them to the sb v8. so why not just go to the chevy v8.... does not weigh much more,,, you can find tons of write ups on this motor put into all kinds of jeep... cheap parts... and if you look you can find a bell housing from when amc used the iron duke pont motor that will bolt up to the sb chevy direct to all the ford trans, such as t4 t5 and others to drop into along with a dana 300 you will end up with one of the best combos ever built for the jeep and you dont even have to use any kind of extra plate to make it work.... move the motor mounts about two inches forward and you wont have any problem with the hei either.... plenty of room left at least on my cj8 scramble for the rad ..... so if you are going to all the trouble to do the swap of a gm motor just my two cents why not get the full power without all that extra cost and trying to find parts take a look the the pic, mine is a little 305 out of a 1985 chevy blazer 4 bolt main with a comp cam set up for rv with all the power in the low band thats make a nice 300 hp starts great runs smooth as glass and pulls real strong

 

Hi Rich,
Over the last decade here on ORC we have shared pro / con thoughts on many topics. I think for most, upgrading, converting, and modifying their power train and/or drive train is mostly a decision based on budget and end result desired. I'm sure over the years many ORC readers have benefited from our pro / con debates. I'm sure over the years many ORC readers have benefited from our combined technical assistance to help solve a challenging problem. I've always enjoyed seeing you contribute to the posts I've been involved with.

I like to challenge myself, so when I set out to EFI a RWD Buick V6 I set a budget for myself. I added up how much it would cost me to go "old school" with an aftermarket performance HEI distributor, an aftermarket 4 barrel dual plane intake manifold, and an aftermarket new Quadrajet Carburetor (fuel / air / spark). A modest budget I admit. The final cost of my EFI RWD Buick V6 was just a couple hundred dollars more than using the above described aftermarket parts.oo: Included in my final cost was the software to do the custom programming of the PROM chip. I sent the .BIN files to someone with a PROM burner to do the actual PROM burning. Also included in my final cost was a new MAF sensor and the other EFI related sensors are new also. I have since replaced the original EFI HEI distributor and EFI ECM with remanufactured products from A1 Cardone Electronics, which places the final cost several hundred dollars over my original budget.oo:

The end result is...I completed the project like I wanted at cost of more than my budget...so what else is new about upgrading, converting, and modifying a power train and/or drive train? I could have have done the Chevy 4.3 V6 "old school" or Chevy 4.3 V6 EFI, (maybe even for less money) but that to me wasn't going to be much of a challenge. I personally like the "WOW" factor of doing something different, and having some people say...why didn't I think of that.

dave

 

I agree on the WOW factor. I too like to do things unconventionally.

You put the V8 in a CJ-8?
I think there's the difference. The CJ8 has a longer engine compartment than a CJ5, like the original poster said he has.
The bullnose Jeepsters and CJ8's were built to take the length of the I6, and didn't some come with the AMC V8's? I think it's only about 5" longer up front, but that little bit sure makes it easier. (He He - I've been told all my life another 5" would make a difference.)

My good '69 Jeepster had the 225, I was going to fit the 350 from my military in it - the longer 350 trans probably would not hurt much, since the Jeepster is longer. My wife talked me into selling it.
I still have another Jeepster right now, but I don't think it's worth fooling with.

I'll take some pics of my M38a1 - the same as a CJ5, to show how tight that 350 fits. It's doable, just lots of work. Both front and rear ends of the longer V8 block create issues. That's why I suggested a Buick engine, at least the distributor would be more accessible.

The trans needs to be something much shorter than the GM 350 - it'd be nice to have a driveshaft that can move up and down a little.

No doubt about it - the extra 2 cylinders does make a difference in power.

My next project might be either breathing some life into the M38a1 by lengthening it, modifying the suspension, making a new cage, and getting a more acceptable trans in it - I'd love to have something with brute power for a change.

Or I might first make my Tracker into a variable length wheelbase. I already have most of the parts to do it, I just need to get started on it.

Yes, the 4.3 is a V8 with 2 cylinders missing, but one of the things that make it easier too is it's a 60 degree block, as opposed to the 225 and 231's and V8's 90 degree blocks. Narrower helps too, especially for the exhaust around the steering.

He He - when you look at the 4.3 engine undressed, it's so small it looks like it should be out of a rice burner!

I remember your posting on the Jeepster board many times too. We've mildly disagreed on some things, but agreed most of the time. It's all a case of sharing one's knowledge, experience, and dreams.

Often there's not just one way of doing things, sometimes one way may be easier or work better. That's where sharing ideas comes in. It can also stop one from making a mistake that we've already experienced! (He He - I have lots of experience with what doesn't work or how to do it the hard way.)

I'll post the pics later today - gotta take them first.

 

Chevy 350 into where a 225 was. Tight, but doable.

Here's what it's in.

The distributor can come out - just remove everything, including the weights, hold your mouth right, say the right swear words, and sneak it out.
The firewall has not been modified to accommodate it.
I think the mounts are on the stock 225 mounts, can't really tell.

 

Here's the front - note the fan/radiator clearance.

The PO said it overheated even with the big electric fan.

So much for the top side.

 

Underneath - note that the front driveshaft has been hitting something by the scarring.

And now for the rear shaft - the yokes are almost back to back.

The PO said he ran it in the sand dunes - he had a big set of paddles at his place when I bought it. He said he ran those, but wouldn't sell them to me - he said they were a friends.

I didn't care, I wanted the shortened D44's w lunchbox 3'88's, the fresh 350 engine and trans, the seats, the winch, Mico lock etc.

Steering and brakes were really Micky Moused too.
The cage welds are scary, plus it's a head banger.
He used Imron paint - with a brush!

He said he did very little of the work himself, he had a "great shop" that created it.

You can see it's quite possible to fit a V8 in but it brings up many issues.

 

motor swap

yep i see what you are saying about the short wheelbase making a big difference..... i think the use of the auto instead of a 4 speed also takes more room.... as you can see on the cj8 scrambler the angle of the drive shaft is in a perfect stright line.... as for the room and the overheating, in think no shroud around the fan is the problem. you have to have one or all the air does not pull and work right with the rad. the cj8 is my first and only jeep project so everything i know is built around how it worked so i have to keep that in mind , i am just so happy with the balance and how everything has worked out on the scrambler... hope other jeep guys can use some of the ideas on their jeeps

 

Nice job! And you have a driveshaft!
Yes the "no shroud" contributes to the overheating, but I think the "too small" radiator is the biggest contributor to overheating. That whole front rad/cooler/grill/shroud/electric fan needs reworking.

Not sure, but isn't the CJ8 a longer wheelbase too? And the engine compartment is longer. It all adds up.

That trans has got to go too!

To get it to where I'd want it, almost everything would have to be re-done or modified. Now you can see why it just sits!