[Guest]

HELP !!

I have a 1967 Jeepster S/W that was 'restored' by a friggin' idiot (sorry)

. Suffice to say, I am becoming quite intimate with my rig as I tear apart the 'upgrades' and attempt to make her functional (I'll tell you about the ground down (leaking) aluminum 4 bbl intake with the monster Holley carb, the wrong electronic ignition set up and the brake booster the size of a VW at a later date). I am going to install a painless wiring kit and am attempting to understand the existing wiring - which is a mass of multicolored splices and dead ends (for example, when you step on the brake, the front turn signals light up - if that is any testimonial to the restorers abilities). Here is my question: there are a couple of components mounted on the drivers side fenderwell that appear to be some type of relay or switching unit about 1.5 inches square with about 4 or 5 push on connection points. There are two of these devices. One relay receives output from the voltage regulator connected through the relay to the field on the alternator and also the ground for the alternator is connected through the same relay (?)

. Another connection from the first relay goes to the second relay with a wire (purple) that according to the schematic, is the starter solenoid hot wire from the switch...this is hard to believe because we traced another (red)wire from the switch to the starter solenoid. My point is that the wiring is a total FUBAR (if you don't disconnect the battery, it'll drain down pretty quick)- there appears to be several extra wires on the second relay going to points unknown. My goal is a great red Jeepster to enjoy with my kids, not a molten pile of burned out out americana due to an electrical fire. Can anybody shed some light on these relays - are they even needed for the rewiring project? To those that have rewired - should I just start from scratch with the painless kit, or do I need the existing wiring and components as well?

 

[2711]

There comes a point in life when you just cant take it anymore. Save yourself and your sanity now- get painless, and rewire.
The complete kit "should" have everything you need to banish the incredible Mr Murphy`s wiring to the netherworld, and make a nice, clean, safe ride. Besides, who knows what Mr murphy was actually trying to acomplish?
it could be bad...very bad. Best not give him even an inch.

when it doubt, rip it out.
There just aint much in there- if there is, its too much.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, that's what I was hoping to hear. I was afraid to start from scratch - only to realize I needed to keep some key original components in place... of course, with all the 'work' that's been done to this old girl, I have no idea what original actually looked like!

 

[265]

Don't feel bad, we've all been there. The only electrical components that were stock on the drivers side fenderwell are a small horn relay and a connection block for the front headlights and blinkers. It sounds like your components are some sort of add-on.

With a purple wire, the arrangement is most likely related to the starting circuit. Jeepsters are notorious for the poor wiring and weak starting system. As the wiring ages and overheats, the resistance increases and the starter motor won't turn over with the full current load going through the starter switch...poor design from Kaiser. The solution is a remote starter solenoid such that the current load goes through the solenoid rather than the starter switch. This may be what you have. A lot of people(me included) have solved the problem with a direct push button starter switch that basically just hot-wires the starter motor.

The external solenoid is not required if you re-wire your Jeepster with the proper gage wire, but it would'nt be a bad idea to keep it since it is a superior design to the original Kaiser wiring. It also sounds like you have the original Motorola alternator. Read some past posts about a single wire Delco alternator. You will most likely decide to replace the alternator while you are reworking the wiring.

Good Luck

Chris in Texas

 

[Guest]

thanks for the insight Chris. It still amazes me that the only fuses are a few 'in-lines', with no fuse block. There are wires screwed into everything, from the firewall, to the fenders to the battery cable terminals!

 

[GRQster]

Dude,
Have you been in touch with Jerry (BeachJeeps) in Charleston?
He has some partsers you could maybe take a look at for reference.

 

[Guest]

no, I haven't, I am just getting settled in down here - life's been a whirlwind for the past year. Thanks for the lead - do you know his email address by chance?

 

[SteveInColorado]

Sounds like you bought yours from the same guy I did

I have an SOA that I need to redo from scratch, wiring I need to redo from scratch including HEI, front brake lines that have been crimped over for years, and more crap in the cab than most semis have, including 2 of every gauge, and not one that works.
I know wiring well enough that I plan on ripping it all out and making my own harness (I kinda like doing it that way), but if I was smart I'd probably go painless. There's nothing on it as far as what needs to be wired that's not straightforward.
Joel (Nobucks) has the wiring diagrams you can download for free so you can see the big picture.
1970 wiring
1972 wiring

I posted a string about using Bobcat fuseblocks not too long ago. I haven't done it, but I will. It's a watertight fuse and relay block that I'm pretty sure would be ideal for these things.

Steve.

 

[GRQster]

Sent you an email with Jerry's addy on it.

 

[1591]

Hey Steve,

Good luck with the wiring. I did Ole Yeller basically from scratch and it turned out ok. Next one though will be with a purchased fuse block instead of a junk yard pulled one with new wiring. There is also another company that people have posted about here that sells a generic pre-wired fuse block in 12 or 20 fuse configurations. I think that is what I am going to do on the next one.

Brad.

 

[1591]

I will second the remote solenoid. Put one on Ole Yeller, run the starter wire thru it from the battery and control it with existing ignition switch. Have not had another problem with that circuit. (And believe me, Chris gives it a workout!).

It is correct that if you re-wire with bigger wire that technically you don't need the solenoid, it will work. BUT, the circuit still goes through many connections and the full load of the stock starter solenoid still goes through the ingition switch. Just not a good design in my opinion.

Brad.

 

[SteveInColorado]

Brad-
did you get a look at the Bobcat one?

Steve.

 

[1591]

Yes, I saw that picture and it seems like it would work well. The most work I had was figuring out which fuse to use for which circuit, then soldering on a wire from the junkyard fuse block, etc. Just seemed like a lot of extra work.

If you already knew the diagram of the bobcat unit, it may be worth using and sounds like the price would be right.

Brad.

 

[SteveInColorado]

I guess i need to just wait and show how it goes when I do it. I see too much of them to be able to figure out what I'm not showing

.
Got too much in front of the wiring, though, and I leave it at work since I don't have a garage, so it only gets worked on on weekends that I'm not doing honeydo's.

Steve.

 

[2712]

My jeepster came alot like yours did. Finaly I just closed my eyes and started chopping wires out untill it was too late to turn back. With all that crap in the garbage can I ordered the www.ezwiring.com EZmini20 kit. Its cheaper then the painless kit and has everything you need and more. Do a search here for ez wiring and you will get tons of info on these great harnesses. Good luck, before I got this harness I couldent spell electrician and now I is one.

 

[RRich]

Interesting - a solenoid driving a solenoid.

It takes about 5 amps to operate the stock starter solenoid. You can operate that solenoid with another one, like some do.

Then it only takes about 5 amps to operate that extra solenoid with the ignition switch.

How's that save the ignition switch when you reduce the draw from 5 amps to 5 amps?

But - then the total draw just to operate the two solenoids is about 10 amps, not including what the starter itself draws.

Funny GM, Ford, even Rambler never thought to do that.

Seems like the best way is use adaquate wiring. The ignition switch should be capable of switching up to 30 amps on the start terminals. Use 10 or 12 gauge wiring to and from the ignition switch.

Or you can put a separate pushbutton on the dash that operates the solenoid. Label it "Starter Destruct" so passengers won't wonder what it is and push it while you are on the highway.

 

[2359]

When I brought my 70 home the original wiring had been totally removed but a new painless kit was in the box, on the floorboards (correction - on the rubber mat covering what is left of the floorboards

). It was a lot less confusing for my small brain to start from scratch. If, you research and print all of the data available in this forum, and make upgrades along the way - it goes pretty smoothly. Some suggestions:

1) Purchase good crimping and stripper tools if you don't have them already.

2 Download, print, enlarge and laminate a wiring schematic so that you have something to scribble notes on and follow during your installation.

3) Decide what you want to do with your rig ahead of time so you're not redoing stuff like I am right now. For example: I upgraded my alternator at the same time as my re-wire to a 63 amp. Now I realize that it's not big enough for everything I want to do and that nice neat loom that I ran to the back of the Jeepster needs a few more wires - damnit!

4) Read through all of the wiring posts - there's some great tips and tricks to improving the lights, starting, etc.

When I started this project, I was a total electrical idiot - now I'm a total electrical idiot that's a year older.

 

[1591]

Yeah, I knew that would get a response same as before when it was discussed here. I did not measure the current draws on the two different solenoids so I do not know for sure. BUT I believe the small "remote" solenoid would draw less current than the one on the starter because;
1. The remote one only has to act as a relay,
2. The one on the starter has to act as a relay AND
it also has to have enough power to engage the starter drive.
3. The physical size & power requirements of the two coils seem to support the idea that the one on the starter would draw more current.

No measurements to back this up however, just reasoning (maybe flawed!). And there is no getting around the fact that the stock starter circuit goes through the ignition switch, neutral switch and about 6 spade connectors while the remote circuit (the one that pulls in the starter) only has three bolted connections (two on solenoid and one on starter).

Now I will ahve to figure out how to measure the different current requirements.

Brad.

 

[2711]

That almost sounds like a relay jump trick.

we used those to give headlights full voltage on XJs, instead of running from the battery to the panel to the switch to the....well, the term would be "around the block instead of crossing the street". On the XJs, the wiring would get old, resistance would go up, headlights would be dim..dimmer...dimmest candle available. Instead of running the voltage to the dash and back, we bypass- run the voltage to the relay that controls the lights, and use the switch inside the cab to control the relay.

I can see what your doing in my mind, but why 2 solinoids? why not a heavy duty relay to the solinoid for the starter, run by ignition switch power? bypass the crapola wiring, and keep the high amperage underhood and close to the need.

Think a 100amp relay would hold up to it?

dam-now I gotta figure some stuff out.

 

[RRich]

There probably is a difference, but not by much. The solenoid on the starter probably does draw a bit more, maybe even 1 or 2 amps more.
But - if the wiring and connections has deteriorated so much it won't operate the original one, the other one will stop working soon when it gets worse. At best it's a band-aid.

When I got mine it had both the remote button and a separate Ford relay - you had to fiddle with the button several times before it'd start. The ignition switch was wired so it operated the extra one, then that operated the starter solenoid. Sometimes worked, sometimes not. The remote button operated the extra relay too, again - sometimes. Sometimes I had to push start it too. Or the alternative was jump it at the starter with a short screwdriver.


The easy way to find the power loss - need a voltmeter.
Hook it back up like stock.

Simply use the voltmeter to straddle each segment of wire, each terminal connection along the start circuit path.
Look for a voltage loss above one volt.
The normal path is from the battery to the circuit breaker - the main power feed to everything - there is a crimped splice in the harness against the firewall, right side, inside the wrap - a problem.
The wire from the circuit breaker under dash to the Batt terminal on the ignition switch it too small - and the crimped connectors go bad. Best to replace it with a 10 ga - prevents fires too.
Measure while cranking - or trying - across the ignition switch - Batt to Start terminals. Should be less than .5 volt.
Then from the ign switch Start terminal it should go to the
trans neutral switch - another trouble source. That wire may or may not be too light. I think the later Jeepsters used a better wire, the earlier ones use a too small one.
M<easure from the ign swith to the neutral switch.
If no neutral switch that wire goes directly to the starter solenoid. Measure the drop in it - while cranking. Again, no more than 1 volt.

It takes a few minutes, but it eliminates the problem and a potential fire problem too. If the resistance is on the battery side of the ignition switch it's where the fire WILL start. Not a question of IF, but WHEN.

OK, I know, Jeepster don't burn, but all the oil underneath does.