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I turned off the ignore I had on TAZ a moment to see the banter - as usual, just his nonsense.

He He - can you guys picture Taz's Jeep? (If he really has one instead of just rode in one once.) By his comments he seems to use house type electrical components.

But just two questions:

TAZ - Do you use Romex or Aluminum Conduit for all your wiring?
Are your lights hooked to just one, or separate dimmers? It's obvious what's dim, but I mean your Jeeps headlights.
 

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Read your original posts. You can pull up and print someone elses drawings but that still tells me you just don't understand electric. I call the white wire the neutral, force of habit, the NEC does allow different colored wiring to be whatever you want it to be thats why we have marking tape in the electric supply house. By the way where is the drawing I asked you to post to help this gentleman out? Now all of a sudden you changed the thread to wiring air compressors, whats up with that? If a 3 way IS what you say, then why are there sooooooo many different switches to perform different functions? Why are you soooo afraid to admit you are wrong, when you are? Bad home life got you down, wife beating you tooooo many times a day so you have to come on line and bother others with your dribble. What happens with a 2 wire switchleg when the neutral is a hot? All code approved. Taz or should I say Spaz, your posts are more suited for humor and nothing more. I would never follow any advise from you on a bet.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"
 

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I call the white wire the neutral, force of habit, ...
That can cause you trouble.

And there it did.
What happens with a 2 wire switchleg when the neutral is a hot?
The neutral is not hot, the WHITE WIRE IS HOT. It is not a neutral.

If a 3 way IS what you say, then why are there sooooooo many different switches to perform different functions?
I don't know what a 3-way being what I say it is has to do with different switches to perform different functions. The latter answers itself.

If a 3-way isn't what I say it is, are there not different switches to perform different functions? Are you drunk already this morning or still? You're not making sense.
 

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Nope, don't drink, yep proves what I've said alllllll along, YOU just don't understand/get it, or comprehend electricity. IF, YOU knew anything about electricity, all of what I've said does make sense and a "REAL" electrician would understand. Sooooooooooo how bout that drawing to help this fella out, or is that to much for you.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"
 

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Nope, don't drink, yep proves what I've said alllllll along, YOU just don't understand/get it, or comprehend electricity.
You should have realized that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I assumed a temporary alcohol induced deficiency. The other choice is a permanent deficiency caused by a feeble mind.

For your last comment regarding "when the neutral is a hot", this is how the National Electrical Code 2008 Edition defines neutral conductor and neutral point in ARTICLE 100-DEFINITIONS.

Neutral Conductor. The conductor connected to the neutral
point of a system that is intended to carry current under
normal conditions.

Neutral Point. The common point on a wye-connection in
a polyphase system or midpoint on a single-phase, 3-wire
system, or midpoint of a single-phase portion of a 3-phase
delta system, or a midpoint of a 3-wire, direct-current
system.

FPN: At the neutral point of the system, the vectorial sum
of the nominal voltages from all other phases within the
system that utilize the neutral, with respect to the neutral
point, is zero potential.
Section 200.7C addresses the use of the white wire in a cable assembly as other than a grounded conductor.
200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or
with Three Continuous White Stripes.

(A) General. The following shall be used only for the
grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in
200.7(B) and (C):

(1) A conductor with continuous white or gray covering

(2) A conductor with three continuous white stripes on
other than green insulation

(3) A marking of white or gray color at the termination

(B) Circuits of Less Than 50 Volts. A conductor with
white or gray color insulation or three continuous white
stripes or having a marking of white or gray at the termination
for circuits of less than 50 volts shall be required to
be grounded only as required by 250.20(A).

(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or more. The use of insulation
that is white or gray or that has three continuous white
stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits
of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1)
through (3).

(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is
permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded
conductor, by painting or other effective
means at its termination, and at each location where the
conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall
encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than
white, gray, or green.

(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor
for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and
the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking
of three continuous white stripes is used for the
supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications,
the conductor with white or gray insulation or with
three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified
to indicate its use by painting or other effective
means at its terminations and at each location
where the conductor is visible and accessible.

(3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified
by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous
white stripes or by any other means permitted by
400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment
permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible
cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is
supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.

FPN: The color gray may have been used in the past as an
ungrounded conductor. Care should be taken when working
on existing systems.
For all of your unjustified and unsubstantiated person attacks, we've found you don't know diddly-squat. You don't know the terminology and you don't know code. You are not now nor have you ever been and electrician. I have come to believe, with the ability to be anything you want to be on the internet, you decided to pose as one here, although the act may have gone on for some time before that.

NO, it would not be difficult for me to supply him a wiring diagram but that is not what he requested.
Now I am no wiring genius, but I can follow instructions pretty accurately.
He described what he wanted as;
Now what I would like to do is have a three position toggle on the dash as well as have an adjustable thermostat:
position 1 - overide on(incase the the fan doesn't kick on for some reason)
position 2 - overide off(for any reason i would want to turn it off, say water crossing or something)
position 3 - auto(controlled by thermostat)
I gave my answer in instruction form, as he requested, to provide the functions he requested. I did not give it as a schematic drawing not knowing if he could read one.

He has now decided that he would like a more sophisticated system with a multi speed fan and that is his option. It IS his Jeep and it IS his fan. We need some information about the wiring of the fan as to what the 3 connections do. At this point we don't know of any other way to determine that other than by experimentation and that will be up to him unless we can find that information by other means.

Now I am here to help him get what HE wants for HIS Jeep and HIS fan. It is high time that people on this board change their dictatorial attitudes and help people get what THEY want. Your way may satisfy you but others may want something different. Your way is seldom the only way.

I am also here to give that help in the format he wants and can understand. I don't need to intimidate him with a schematic drawing just because that would be the easiest way for me to explain it. Recently the word "articulate" has become popular. We need to communicate, for no mater how clear our pronunciation it may not get the point across if the listener is unfamiliar with the language.

Furthermore, it is time people like you quit showing their ignorance with meaningless verbal assaults especially when they have nothing constructive to add to the discussion. The only non-inflammatory remark you made related to the subject was;
The other day when I was in the electric supply they had a whole wall full of SP/DT, SP/ST, DP/DT and just palin old SP toggle and pushbutton switches.
Still you couldn't resist your primal urges and added an inflammatory statement:
They are not hard to find, IF, you know what you're looking at and if you listen to taz better have the fire dept standing by.
Are you not yet tired of showing your ignorance or are you so obtuse, you somehow think you are showing your intelligence? It would seem that the NEC and other sources disagree with the beliefs you have been harboring being anything near intelligent.
 

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The same goes for you, all the dribble you spout about your intelligence. I am more of an electrician than you will ever be or know. At least know I know where you get all the "intelligence" you claim to have, you hoard books, papers, whatever and then pour over them to try and find fault with others. The world is not perfect, especially the dream world you live in. In electricity, you can't have the correct colored wiring in every piece of romex/bx/mi cable, etc, and you can't put piping in all the time to pull wires thru so the wiring colors will be correct. One thing I have learned is you can't reason or converse with ignorant people like yourself, and, I stick to my original statement, you don't know/won't ever get it and are ignorant. Its funny how you make feeble attempts at trying to discredit others on this board. Just keep up the good work as the resident/interactive spell checker, thats about all you're good at.

Booger

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"
 

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Just taz trashing another thread with cut & paste crap he doesn't really understand...

Since I've got him on 'Ignore', and I KNOW he has no idea of what he's talking about from the beginning of this thread, I'm probably letting the cat out of the bag since I know you guys like to torture him and he can't help spouting off what he *THINKS* (if you call that 'Thinking') or posting up anything he can 'Cut & Paste' to confuse the situation...
------------------------------



Anyway, For the rest of you viewing,
And stated in Layman's terms...

The term 'THROW' comes from the big, old time blade switches like you see in 'Frankenstein' movies and when they 'Throw The Switch' on the electric chair in old movies.
.........................

THROWS are the positions of the switch, If the switch goes 'UP' for 'On', and 'DOWN' if 'OFF', then it's a SINGLE 'Throw'.
Means the switch is only making an internal connection in ONE direction, or SINGLE direction.

The other direction of travel OPENS the circuit, and there is NO INTERNAL CONNECTION being made anymore.
---------------------

If 'Down' is also an 'ON', then it's a DOUBLE THROW.
Two 'ON' positions means it's a 'DOUBLE THROW'.

If you have a center 'OFF', then it's a 'DOUBLE THROW' with 'CENTER OFF', and the switch isn't making ANY internal connections.
-----------------------

If it were a TRIPLE THROW,
The center position would be a connection also, with 'Up' and 'Down' being connections as well.
 

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Back again?

The same goes for you, ...
Snappy reply, been hanging around kindergartners have you?

At least know I know where you get all the "intelligence" you claim to have, you hoard books, papers, whatever ...
Intelligence, in that context, is not something you get from books. Intelligence is the ability to learn. You either have it or you don't. You seem to be short on it. You get knowledge from books. Try opening one sometime.

In electricity, you can't have the correct colored wiring in every piece of romex/bx/mi cable, etc, ...
Well, the black, red (or even orange, purple, blue, etc.), is not a problem. The green or bare in cable has only one use. That leaves only the white. Are you now say that the white is not always the neutral? Isn't that inconsistent with the statement you made 25 hours before?

I call the white wire the neutral, force of habit, ...
The white wire does not signify neutral. The white wire signifies the "grounded conductor". In single phase/three wire, the grounded conductor is the neutral. In other systems there may not be a neural but white wire still signifies the grounded conductor.

I didn't learn this stuff out of books. I learned it by experience.

I have no reason to discredit you. You are the one trying to discredit me with your feeble, unjustified and unsubstantiated personal attacks. My concern is with the spreading of lies and misinformation continuing the dumbing of America. You might want to promote it. You may have resented the other kids in the class where tests were graded on the curve because they pushed the curve too high for you.

You can believe anything you want to. You can pretend to be an electrician at social functions. You can dress up as one for Halloween. Spread you misinformation here and I will correct it. I have no need to make it personal. YOU chose to make it personal because you lacked the knowledge and experience to keep to the subject matter. It's a trick you tried to used to confuse the issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
WOW....remind not to post electrical questions again HEHEHE.

Anyway, it's probably a good idea for me to test the fan first to figure out what the 3 wire setup is...I can't seem to find much documentation on the Grand Cherokee fan, so it'll have to be trial and error(and hopefully not blow the damn thing up). I would assume the 3 wire setup would mean it's a 2 speed fan though. Also I don't know what the amp draw is for this fan, so I will need to determine that as well.

And TazCJ7 was partially right in his pointing out what I stated, so I should have worded it differently:

Originally Posted by Warthog
Now I am no wiring genius, but I can follow instructions pretty accurately.
What I meant by this is if I was a wiring genius, I wouldn't have to come here and ask this question. But I was looking for a schematic....I realize that is probably asking a lot of someone. But I figured someone else had probably done a simliar, if not the same setup on here. Which is why I figured it wouldn't have been a big deal to post the question.

Once I figure out the wiring on that Grand Cherokee fan and the amp pull, I'll come back for further details.

My apoligize to the moderators for strating a post that caused so much flak.

But thanks again guys, will post back in a couple weeks when I'm home to test the fan.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Well after reading up some two speed fans I came to this conclusion. This is assuming the Grand Cherokee fan is a two speed fan. What do you think of a setup like this:

Three position toggle(on/off/on). Use one 'on' postion to turn on the low speed with a thermostat setup like this:

Summit SUM-890016 - Summit® Electric Fan Thermostat Kits

Use the 'off' position to shut the fan off completely. Then use the other 'on' position to run the high speed. Then wire in the buzzer/warning light with the thermostat if the temp goes over the high end of it.

Something I mentioned before in a previous post was a question on the stock 4.0l temp sensor. Is it essentially the same as the sensor that comes in the above linked kit, or do they act completely different. If they are the same could I not just take the reading from the stock sensor?

Thanks....and hopefully this doesn't start another slaggin war :D
 

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My apoligize to the moderators for strating a post that caused so much flak.
No apology necessary - that's why we earn the big bux. I would have locked this days ago but wanted you to get the info you needed. It's in there somewhere. :)

And I'd answer your new questions, but would rather observe the match from the sidelines. Contrary to what you may think, those guys all know some :censored:. I think they just like clanging heads together from time to time. :rolleyes:
 

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I assume your Jeep did not come with an electric fan and the temperature sensor you have is for the gauge. With some electronics, that sensor could be used to turn on the fan but probably wouldn't be worth the cost.

The problem with the fan is we don't know what the connections do. One could be the armature and one could be the field but doubtful. I would expect the fan to be series wound, armature in series with the fields. There could be two sets of fields. There could be just a resistor between the different leads to provide the low speed.

Without knowing more about the fan, we don't know if we can connect both leads at the same time of if we need to only connect one at a time. For automatic operation, that would require that the relay that energizes the high speed to de-energize the low speed and vice versa.

Do you know what year Grand Cherokee the fan came from? Do you have the pigtail (plug with some leads on it). I did a search on Grand Cherokee fan and found one with 3 wires that was controlled by the ECU. I could read that the black was ground but it was just a small, almost thumbnail size, picture and when I clicked on it, I got "File not found".

Personally, I wouldn't touch the Summit kit without knowing what parts it uses. We can use parts you can readily get replacements for at about any auto supply or salvage yard.

Thanks....and hopefully this doesn't start another slaggin war :D
At least it's kept your thread near the top where you can find it easily.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
The YJs never came with an electric fan(except maybe a small one on any that had A/C, although I have yet to see a YJ with A/C).

We'll from what I've been able to gather on the Grands, is that they only put the 5.9l engine in the 1998 limited models....so it's out of a '98. I tried to find a wiring diagram for that year but haven't been able to turn up anything yet. And yes the pigtail is still on the fan.

Again this may have to wait till I can get home and test the fan.
 

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Again this may have to wait till I can get home and test the fan.
We'll be here. We may be arguing (… er I mean debating) on this same thread but hopefully not.

In the meantime I'll see if I can find a factory wiring diagram but I'm sure the fan is controlled buy the ECU and it's not gonna help a lot.
 

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How bling do you wanna go? I've found these while searching for a temperature switch. That 2000 hour low end on the life expectancy bothers me. The price ain't bad.

Found a dual temp switch for a BMW that would give you two speed if that fan you have is two speed.

I think one of the problems you are going to have is finding places for temperature sensors. You already have one for the gauge. You need another to control the fan and another for the idiot light/buzzer. I don't like the ones that insert into the end of the hose. I've seen some that just hang behind the radiator but I'm not fond of those either.

It's beyond the scope of the assignment so maybe you would rather us leave part selection to you.
 

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A thermostat housing from a later model 4.0 - like a 2000 or newer, has a temp sender hole that the earlier ones don't. It's on the top, so it's getting the hot water from the head, not the pump. The housings are the same mounting. Might be a good place for the fan thermo switch.

I just replaced a fan in a 90 Cherokee - only 2 wires - black is ground, white is hot. If they are reversed, the fan runs backwards. The fan cost me $5 at a wrecking yard. May be the simplest solution.

On house wiring and things like that, white signifies neutral - black is hot - I heard it started that way because black is the burnt color you'll be if you reverse them.

In Automotive, black usually signifies ground. Same for most electronics devices. Decent parts houses carry all the variations of switches you'd need for a fan installation, and they don't have to be mounted in J boxes. No, JC Penny does not carry them, neither does 7-11.

Most of the argument here was based on house/building wiring - unrelated to hooking up a fan. Fortunately after the fan is installed on the YJ (that's a Jeep Taz,) you don't have to call the building department to to get it inspected to make sure you had a permit and did it to code.
 

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I just replaced a fan in a 90 Cherokee - only 2 wires - black is ground, white is hot. If they are reversed, the fan runs backwards. The fan cost me $5 at a wrecking yard. May be the simplest solution.
If it only has two leads and reversing them makes it run backwards, that would indicate a permanent magnet field.

On house wiring and things like that, white signifies neutral ...
As I stated, WHITE signifies the grounded conductor. For single phase/three wire, as commonly used in house wiring, the grounded conductor is the neutral but not so on all systems.

In Automotive, black usually signifies ground. Same for most electronics devices.
Make that battery powered electronic devices.

Decent parts houses carry all the variations of switches you'd need for a fan installation, ...
So does Radio Shack and most hardware stores.

... and they don't have to be mounted in J boxes. No, JC Penny does not carry them, neither does 7-11.
Now was that necessary?

Fortunately after the fan is installed on the YJ (that's a Jeep Taz,) you don't have to call the building department to to get it inspected to make sure you had a permit and did it to code.
Or was that?

Still, fires are so inconvenient.
 

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Jim - An old electrician told me about the black being hot when I was a kid. Yes, we did have electricity back then.

Taz, yes that was necessary since you were quoting electrical codes, obviously YOU had Jeeps and buildings mixed up. If you knew the difference between a Jeep and a building, why did you bother to show building codes?
The poster has a Jeep to put the fan in, not a building. Look at post #1.

Black as ground - Not just battery operated devices, TVs, radios, computers, aircraft, spacecraft, industrial machines, etc. often use black to signify a ground or return.
Using a battery does not change Ohms Law for the rest of the world.

Permanent magnets? Maybe so, I didn't look to see how old they were. You'd rather have something more complicated? (on a Jeep!)
KISS!
 

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Taz, yes that was necessary since you were quoting electrical codes, obviously YOU had Jeeps and buildings mixed up. If you knew the difference between a Jeep and a building, why did you bother to show building codes?
Somebody came along and made some claims about knowing and not knowing electricity and being an electrician or not.

Permanent magnets? Maybe so, I didn't look to see how old they were. You'd rather have something more complicated? (on a Jeep!)
KISS!
More powerful. Series wound like your starter and my Warn winch. Never had a reason to take a wiper or blower motor apart so I won't make any predictions there. Not really more complicated, they just wrap the wire to the armature around the field pieces.
 
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