There's no replacement for displacement

as some old timers would say.

 

your stock 304 can run with a stock 360?

I wonder why in teh heck they bothered with the larger CI engines then?

please explain?

welcome to the BBS!

 

I am not new to the board. I have been here awhile. Like I said I am not talking crap about bigger motors. I am just tired of seeing all the [censored] talked on here about 304's and 258's. Same thing goes with suspension lifts. If you don't have a Skyjacker or a spring over you are the little guy? Not even.

 

And the reason they offered bigger cubic inches was to be able to get more torque. Suited for the needs of towing, etc. Ever wonder why they didn't put a 360 in a CJ. Because they knew it wasn't needed, they knew someone wasn't going to be towing a yacht with a CJ. Why? Because CJ's werent designed for towing anything that a little 4 cyl mill couldn't pull around. I like cubic inches just as much as the next guy, however, I don't need them to make up for what I have downstairs like a lot of people here seem to do.

 

I agree. I like my 304 and wouldnt trade it for a 360 or a Chevy 350. Of course mine's been bored to .030 over and I've done a bunch of other mods for more power, but its got plenty of power for my CJ-5.

 

Not every body. I like my 304 too. Am putting it together after a rebuild. It works great for me. But true, there is no substitute for displacement. If you need more power, you are better to go to a larger engine than crank up compression ratios or valve trains etc. Smaller engines still have weak points in them and unless you beef them all up (very expensive) then you still are taking a risk. People talk highly of the 360 because it is a bolt in swap (cheap) and you can buy them cheap-double good.

My stock 304 couldn't run with a 360 however. Again CIs nearly always win unless there is a problem with that engine.

I am not SOA either. Just Old Man Emu. Different strokes. It all depends on what you you wheel in and how you drive.

A winch beats them all!!

 

Let me see if I can throw two minutes at this question...

HEAVY for the displacement.
Not a very good bore to stroke ratio. (better with the 360)
Two bolt main caps.
Cast iron main caps.
Shifted sand casting problems. (poor manufacturing quality control)
Poor quality control on the cast iron block material it's self...
Poor machine work.
Cast iron crank shaft.
Cast iron rods.
Poor quality rod bolts.
Utterly junk cast aluminum pistons.
Poor quality common iron piston rings.
Poor piston pins.
Pressed in piston pins.
Unworkable oil gallery system.
Unworkable lower end oiling. (especially #7 & #8 rods)
No oil to the timing set, distributor gears or fuel pump eccentric.
Heads very hard to modify or upgrade...
Poorly designed, flat runner intake manifold,
Flex plates, flywheels and harmonic balancers don't interchange.
External oil pump that doesn't work well, and is in harms way.

To be fair...
Fair valve train geometry,
Common lifters,
Good valve size,
Good intake runner size,
Same external mating dimensions from 290 to 401

Time is up!

 

I dont know or care about 304,360, 401 argument,...but to answer the rest of quandry,..its simple. Fuel injected V8's and SOA suspensions(set up properly)work awsome. Sure you still need to have the propper gears and lockers along with low a C of G, good tire selection, propper air pressure, and of course good driving skills. No its not the only way to go, but it is a very good way to go, if you are wheeling at the extreme level.
If you are happy with what you have,..good. I feel that no one is wrong, if its their rig and thats what they choose,.... But I could show you obstacles that you would wish for improvements over your current set up, if you were forced to attempt them. In other wards, if you dont want people knocking your choice of drivetrain, dont go knocking theirs,..especialy if you havent been in their shoes,(err seat). One baddly timed gasp from a carbuerator when your completely vertical on a throttled climb, can easily put you violently on your lid. Instant on, instant off on any angle is something you can not consistently maintain with a carb.
Again though, enjoy what you have if your happy with it, but those are the reasons why V8 FI swaps are popular. Until you have had some time driving a rig with that type of set up, in a condition that they are really built for, you shouldnt knock it though,...you might like it.

 

TR, you accurately described all AMC engines with slight exception to the 401 which has a steel crank.
I started with a 258, went to a 304, and finally have a 360 and I wouldn't trade my 360 for anything, except maybe an EFI HO 302w.
All AMC engines have their drawbacks but if they are built right they are perfectly good for a jeep, 304 included.
My wheeling buddy has a 258 with Holley multi port efi in his scrambler and it works real good.
I chose the 360 for ease of installation, more cubes, and HP. Ease of installation is a biggie. There are probably bunches of better engines out there but nuttin but an AMC will bolt up. My 304 had over 90,000 very abused miles on it and it was time to rebuild. For the same money, I got a 360, more HP, more torque, and the whole sh!terie bolted right in.
I have never seen anyone really bag on the 304 or 258 unless they were bagging on AMC engines in general, which I can sorta understand.

 

I've had very few problems with my 304, and it is adequate for my purposes. I'm looking at swapping in a 401 becuase there is one available, and this is a toy, but I dont't NEED it. If I wanted to drop the money on all the adapters, I'd swap in a 350 just because of parts (price, availability and options). Do I feel bad that I have a 304? Not a chance. Do I wish to change it out just because it is a 304? No. If it blows up and it's cheaper to buy an adapter and a junkyard EFI 350 than rebuild the 304, will I swap it out? In a heartbeat. I live in a cold climate, and EFI is the only way to go.

 

TR, as far as the "poor block" i have to say youre wrong. due to the high nickle content AMC v8's are fairly strong blocks. also, the oil flow is "workable." drill and tap two holes into the rear lifter valley and plumb from the front for better oil flow to the often starved rear mains.

 

My sentiments exactly TR. When we got our SNOJEEP it had a recently "built" 304 in it. The engine had been treated to some good quality "stuff" and was like new. Our 304 is an "OK" engine, but it does have......as was listed.....a ton of little un-overcome-able design flaws, and it IS heavy for the cubic inches. Our intake manifold weighs a TON!

I wouldn't go out seeking a 304 to build and install in our Jeep, but since it's already in there and fresh, that's fine. In my opinion, there are a lot of engines out there which swap in with just a few problems to solve; engines which would bring more up-to-date technology to a Jeep. If you look close, you'll see that the AMC 304 is not much different in technology than most engines from the late fifties and early sixties except that it doesn't oil worth a crap.

We are STILL working on the inter-gallery oil crossover for our 304 and have some new ideas to try. We haven't given up yet!

Just so you don't get the impression that I'm knocking the AMC family, I'll add that one of the most DISAPPOINTING engines I have ever had was a GM 454. Despite all we did to that rat, it was still a boat anchor and was not impressive when compared to the GM 350's we had in similar trucks.

I hate to admit it because I'm actually a Mopar man historically, but the GM 350 is a pretty darn good bread-and-butter engine. We took a Goodwrech 350 over three mountain passes last summer in front of 20,000 pounds and that meant holding 4200 RPM for dangerously long periods of time and well,.......the engine WAS impressive.

 

hold on now...
first off, I built the strongest 304 I've ever seen, and it's still around. that said there are some differences not yet mentioned.
the 360 and 401 have way better heads than the 304. you say your stock 304 keeps up with a stock 360.. well.. if your 4.10 geared cj keeps up with a 2.72 geared waggoneer, thats not much of a comparison. and to say a 401 isnt much peppier is saying flat out you have never driven any vehicle with a 401 in it. its the exact same price to build a 360 as it is to build a 304... so why not a 360?

 

I think the reason people say go with a 360 over a 304 is just plain out they are easier to find. Just about every waggie has one still under the hood. When you say your 304 will run with any stock 360 you must not have a 80 304 cause mine sure is a pig. Do i care what is under the hood. Nope it still starts everytime i want it too. When it dies it will be either a 401 going under the hood (I have a low mileage 401, so why rebuild) or a 4.6 or 5.0. I dont think i can fight it for many more years. Fuel ingection is where it is at. But as long as i can still fight it alittle bit i will keep my carb.

 

**TR, you accurately described all AMC engines with slight exception to the 401 which has a steel crank.**

The question was what was wrong with the 304, not what was right with the 401.
-----------------

**I wouldn't trade my 360 for anything, except maybe an EFI HO 302w.**

Why not go to a 351W?
50 more cubic inches in the same size and weight package.
----------------

**There are probably bunches of better engines out there but nuttin but an AMC will bolt up.**

True. Very true.
If I don't use some sort of exotic (Exotic defined as anything but small block chevy, small block Ford) I'm probably going to use the 360 I have in the garage I can't get rid of....
Everything bolts up if I use it.
----------------

** TR, as far as the "poor block" i have to say youre wrong. due to the high nickle content AMC v8's are fairly strong blocks. also, the oil flow is "workable." drill and tap two holes into the rear lifter valley and plumb from the front for better oil flow to the often starved rear mains.**

High nickel content wasn't used in anything but the 390 & 401 'Hi-Po' castings, and wasn't used at all before 1969 and not after 1974. (You can thank the AMX for that)
A nickel content higher than Chevy or Ford was used because of the pitiful water flow direction and shifted castings.
With out the extra nickel (a long way from High nickel content) the block would fall apart when heated and cooled.
(Check out Joe Mondello's book on AMC engines that just came out, it's REAL interesting! He gives up all the secrets of the factory AMC racing team.)
Also, I was speaking more of the air bubbles in the material, over casting and flash casting, blocked internal passages, missing water flow guide baffles, shifted sand casting leaving thin odd shaped cylinder walls and internal webbing not connected to anything...

As for the oil system...
It sucks totally.
The oil galleries never line up correctly, the drilled galleries are always misaligned, the crank is starved, the cam is starved, the entire front end is DRY!
I'd call those problems...
The question was, "Why do we rag on the 304", not, "How easy is it to clear up AMC poor design"
---------------

Chevy has the best internal oiling in the business.
Good cast passages and galleries, and very good alignment of the drilled passages.
Oil where you need it, and no oil where you don't.

The SBC need a better head design with canted valve angles and that &%*#@ HEI distributor is junk.
The Vortech heads do help the top end breathing problem quite a bit, and a just what the doctor ordered for Jeepers! (Under $400 for a complete, ready to bolt on brand new set!)

You can get a 4 bolt main block, forged steel crank, forged steel connecting rods, good heads, a dozen types of fuel injection, good heads and a transmission to satisfy anyone, ALL FROM THE JUNK YARD!

Small block Ford has serious top end oiling problems.
Anyone that has had to do a top end on a 50K engine knows the entire top end is shot from lack of oil.
Use sealed roller rockets to get around that problem, and the little Ford does a good job.
Fair ignition (Meaning it's easy to tune and add a MSD module to) Good flowing heads, strong blocks, heavy nodular iron cranks and steel rods, along with Hot Diggty! fuel injection for cheap out of the junk yards.
The draw back is Ford transmissions can be finicky when you try and bolt them up to some transfer cases.
The little fords are everywhere, cheap and strong runners. The only draw back is they are more expensive to build than SBC.

AMC engines are heavy, clunky, outdated technology that has no factory updated parts since '78.
Internal oiling is crap, external oil pump is crap, no available forged steel parts, ect...
See above.

 

I have driven a 401 before. To be honest I couldn't see that much pf a difference. If you look at the numbers a 401 all the years produced only had 65 more hp than the 72-78 304 powered Jeeps. Like I said before I am not hashing anyones engine choice. Im just tired of seeing people hash the 304. I don't think that just because I have a v-8 powered Jeep that I should talk down about someone that is running a 151. And as far as carburated Jeeps go against fuel injected Jeeps I think it all depends on what kind and how your carb is tuned. Injection is nice, but it's not worth it to me. As far as the sprung over vs sprung over debate I don't think it really matters too much unless you are trying to go the most cost efficient route for flex (SO). Anyone that knows suspension components can build a nice flexy sprung under ride without all the welding and steering headache.

 

I will defend the 304.

I ran a 304 in a 74 CJ5 for 8 years. Not that I did a ton of extream rock crawling or anything. (Michigan has very few if any rocks.)

The 304 was a good engine for what I did with it.

It never let me down and I was only ever stuck once. I had all the power and torque that I needed when I needed it.
I broke 2 drive shafts in this Jeep. Each time I replaced it I had a thicker wall tube put in it...until the spiders of the D44 let loose. Not to mention a couple of u-joints.

I think that 304 is a good engine... There are better out there I would not snub a Jeep just because it has a 304 in it.

 

I wish I had a buck for everytime Ive heard someone say that they could get the same performance out of their well tuned carb, only to find it sputtering, idleing rough, and stalling, in front of thousands of observers.
Maybe for your use you are happy with a carbbed engine, but Ill tell you from experience that I would take a fuel injected 4 cylinder over a 350hp carbbed V8.
As far as the SOA vs SUA argument, there are no steering or welding headaches, they are just simple fabrications, that have to done propperly. If done propperly you would have to prove it to me that, you can put together a bolt on SUA that can compete with an SOA, on extreme terrain.I know that the AGR rig with SUA took 1st last year at one of the events, but that is a highly modified SUA( and has some evry sweet flexing spring packs).

 

Well, from my only experience, my mildly built 304 kept up with my buddies 360 and I actually started gaining ground on him. But I will add this to the equation, He's ruining it in a Metal bodied, CJ7 with T-176, D300, and 3.54 gears, while I mine is Fiberglass CJ5 T-150, D20, and 3.54's. My gearing is a little better for a drag than his, and I am lighter. So how much of a difference Couldn't tell you, but I can say he wasn't getting away from me.

to add one more to the list of downsides for the AMC V8's, Distributor is in front behind the water propeller some call a fan

But I wouldn't trade an AMC V8 for a CHevy 350 ever! KEEP IT A JEEP!

Brent

 

Hmmmm, Drag racing, on flat ground to determine which engine is better in a Jeep, hmmm why didnt I think of that.[rolleyes]

 

Come on, I did say "My only experience" Hell, It's not like these things were mad to haul [censored]! Note all the factors I had in my favor, not to mention He's running full emmissions and stock exhaust, I'm running bare bones emission and dual straight pipes. 360 is more powerfull is what I'm getting at, but 304 can keep up with it.

Brent

 

H8monday wrote,
**As far as the SOA vs SUA argument, there are no steering or welding headaches, they are just simple fabrications, that have to done propperly.**

This coming from a guy that eats pizza with welding rods

, sneezes hydraulic steering assists

, and farts lengthened wheelbases!

I'm thinking he knows what he's talking about!!! (still needs that spiel choker though!

)

Carbs on mild terrain or flat land are just fine.
I'd do injection on rocks or competition.
(or if I had an extra $1,500)

**My gearing is a little better for a drag than his, and I am lighter.**

Oh! Now we're talking drag racing! In a Jeep no less!
This is going to be entertaining!

**to add one more to the list of downsides for the AMC V8's, Distributor is in front behind the water propeller some call a fan**

To add to the good side, the distributor is up front, so you have fire wall clearance, you can get to the tune up parts, and you can keep your secondary ignition wires shorter and separated....

 

In reply to:

to add one more to the list of downsides for the AMC V8's, Distributor is in front behind the water propeller some call a fan

I guess you have never seen a chevy get watered out before. Well go to www.overmost4wd.com and look under the trail rides somewhere in there is a burbon that got watered out and due to that sucked water in through the exhaust. Anyway my point is it doesnt matter where the cap is. Plus if i water out. I just lift up the hood pop to clips off spray some dw-40 and pop two caps back on. If i had a chevy it be climbing up on my bumper reaching way back. Getting pissed off cause i am lying on a oven. Find the screws. Fight the cap off since it barely clears the firewall. Spray so dw-40. Then reverse the process. Cussing the whole time cause i am laying on a oven. Ok just my $0.02

Oh yeh just one more tip. I have only watered out once and most of my wheeling has been done in the pines. Check out the website for the pine runs. I quick coat of clearcoat before each mud run and i havent stalled out since i started doing that.

 

if a 304 powered vehicle with similar weight, and similar gears was keeping up with a 360 powered same, the 360 was weak or the 304 extraordinarily strong, or a combination of both.

Ive driven both, there isnt much of a comparison in stock form.

its like the differnce in a 305, and a 350

 

Well whatever it is you or the next guy are running. Good for you. It is your choice and that is the great thing about Jeeps. There are so many choices of what you can do that it opens up endless opportunities to make your Jeep your own. I just hate seeing different Jeep things getting flamed. Speaking for myself and I am sure a few others on this board that our wallets are not that of Trucks or a Petersons publication. Granted if I had the money I may do a couple of the nice little doo dads like injection and so forth. I know what my Jeep will do in the condition it is in now and not once has it ever let me down, be it on a hill climb, mud hole, or whatever.