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When will people learn???

1370 Views 45 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  TEX
I was heading up to the field this morning, when I came upon a semi that had tried to turn around on the shoulder of the road and had gotten itself mired. I went over to talk to the driver, and he asked (as I expected) if I would pull him out (as I was in a tractor). As I started unhooking the implement, a mid 70s Chevy pickup came on scene, with what appeared to be about 40" tires and no muffler. He realized what was happening, and promptly said he was going to pull the semi out. I responded that he was nuts. He asked if the tractor was 4wd. I said yes. He asked how many horsepower it was. I said 250. He said, "sh%$, my pickup has 400 hp." He proceeded to produce a chain, and hook to the semi. First, he tried to gently pull the semi out...took the slack out of the chain, and let the clutch out slowly. He was sitting on pavement, and all that happened was the clutch started to produce this strange, rum soaked cigar smell...No tire movement at all. He then started backing up (and I realized what he was about to do and ran the other way) and then popped the clutch, ran forward, slammed the chain tight, and when the slack was all gone, the p/u stopped dead in its tracks, spinning the tires on the dry pavement. He started to back up again and the trucker ran out of the truck to stop him...Amazingly, he hadn't ripped the clevis off of either the p/u or the semi...I hooked on, didn't even turn the 4wd on, and slowly pulled the semi out as the p/u man gawked. Trucker thanked me, gave the chain back to the p/u man, and we were on our way. I didn't honestly think that anyone would believe that their p/u would outpull a MFWD diesel tractor with 6' tall tires and duals in the rear. I was wrong /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif.

Evolution of tools: stone, hammer, wrench, socket, impact, really big hammer, blue wrench.
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I saw the same sort of thing a few years ago. A semi looped around a business because he couldn't back out onto the street and got stuck in the mud. Guy comes over in his nice, shiny 4x4 TOYOTA of all things and hooks on. Now I'm trying to find a comfortable spot to watch this display of stupidity. He tries for about 10 minutes, spinning on the pavement, jerking what for all practical purposes was a bridge, (probably smoked the auto trans; it had to be running hot) until a straight delivery truck, about a 30 footer, backs up. They hooked the strap (not quite dumb enough for chain) to the straight truck and he drove right out with the semi. There's something to be said for torque and weight. That little toyota looked like a bug that was trying to get out of the semi's way!

today's generation!!! i tell you.. i see similar crap all the time.. but with cars.. my students.. all think adding a k&n air filter and that super "Type R" muffler makes their imports super fast..
This one kid thought because his motor said mazda, and it was in a ford gt, that he had the same motor as my rx-7.. kids these days..
but i guess its our fault.. not teaching them the proper aspects of vehicles..

survival is instinct, but living takes guts
It isn't the previous generations fault for not teaching this generation about cars. It is that today's generation cares too much about computers than cars. They would rather program a computer than tune a carb. I know I'm from today's generation; I just took a detour to working on cars instead computers. Anyways I stay away from computers b/c I don't like them b/c they don't like me.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
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(Preface: This is off topic-Sorry)
First of all I am NOT upset. I totally disagree with that remark about computers vs cars. I think the root of the issue is if you are intelligent enough to know when you don't know something. If you let your ego get the best of you, especially in the above situation where someone can really get hurt, you are an idiot period.

I learned computers early, and today that is how I afford my Jeep parts. At work, I put together pieces and parts to come up with solutions that allow relaibility, flexibility and scalibility never seen, and I do the same with the Cj7. Anyway, I bought my Jeep 6 years ago to have a vehicle I can 1. Learn from. 2. Have fun with. 3. Diagnose, and pull a broken part out vs looking at broken code on the screen (Broken, greasy, problems are great!). I have learned the ability to think and apply different methods to seperate problems. Kids today do not do this, they want to buy it, they want to have it painted different to distinguish it, they want to use the cell phone to have someone fix it.
You add on, that todays schools have emptied the wood, metal, auto and foundary shop classes, and filled them with computers.

I am sorry for venting, but the way I see it as in H.G. Wells' "The Time Machine" you can either be a Morloch, or an Eli (Sp?) or as I strive for, the best of both!

'85 CJ7______T.H.O.R.
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif"To Her, OutRageous"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif"To Have Off Road"
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In some ways it has always been the same.
When I was 21 in 1974 a friend of mine had a new small early bronco .
74 with a 3 sp auto C4? 302 . He bet his boss that he could out pull his
about 70 3/4 ton 4x4 powerwagon full of tools as a service truck. The guy with the ford thought his 60 series BFG street tires gave him the advanage./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

They chained them together the powerwagon on graval the ford on blacktop .
That how short the drive way was to the station. Well the ford started to
pull that dodge back and then the guy in the dodge slowly let the clutch out.
and with out slipping a wheel started pulling that ford backwards with the
ford jumping about foot in the air each time a tire hit the ground this went
on till the ford broke a front axle shaft.
OBTW That poor old powerwagon only had 7:50X16 on it for shoes.
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i can go somewhat along with the computer thing.. but i also think its todays society as well.. with all this technology.. it breeds laziness... everyone wants it fast and easy... no one wants to work for anything.. they just want it force fed to them.. be it the internet.. drive thru.. what have you.. just make it fast.. and easy..

survival is instinct, but living takes guts
Scott no problem. It is good to vent anger sometimes (especially if you happen to be working on a Jeep). The key work in my previous post was rather. Congrats on knowing computers and making a good living from it. Computers allow some amazing designs to be planned out and tested without building the actual component. As I see it alot of people today are either lazy or in too big of a hurry. That is why so many people are buying fully built rigs. It is the RUB (Rich Urban Biker) syndrome just with 4wds. If you feel like venting some more go right ahead.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
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I had an experience one time that is somewhat similar...
We had the display rig hung up in a semi wild area of a state fair ground trying to turn around after a state trooper assigned to the event forced us to turn the wrong direction...

One of the guys there, ripped jeans, worn out sneakers, an old Hooters shirt came up and said he had a truck that would pull us out...
We all sniggered, but told him to bring it on if he thought he could do it...

A few minutes later, Bob Chandler's driver brought "BIGFOOT" around the building, and he pulled the rig straight out...
Turns out they had to unload 'Big Foot' and put the big tires on it to pull their truck out, and they had been pulling the display trucks out all morning...

We spent most of the weekend riding around in the back of Bigfoot in the rain and drinking sale beer...

I never laugh until I see the truck now!!

Later folks, Aaron...

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"
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In my high school(district 207 in IL)it was decreed that computers and math(some kinda advanced rocket science or something) are more important than auto shop and wood shop. So the year after I graduated(3 years ago) they elimanated them both. Now no one gets an automotive education at all unless the commute an hour before school starts to the other side of the district to the one school that still offers it. Three schools,one auto shop. Makes perfect sense dosen't it? Oh yeah the only welding shop is there too. Same rules apply. Thats what I get for living in the "WONDERFUL" northern suburbs of Chicago. Thats progress. A zillion people who can work a puter and but can't even change there own oil. Thanks for an excuse to rant ya'll. This is one big generalization. I hope I haven't offended anyone as that was not my intent. Later.

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I have pulled some pretty big well stuck rigs out of the mud and sand with my 91 F250, it has a 450/500HP 650ft/lbs torque(plus)Kenne Belle Supercharged 460 with Detroit locked front and rear and 4.56 gears 36" or 38.5" tires,(Depending on conditions and what Im using it for). I pulled a school bus out of some red clay mud stuck up to the frame, I used a 6" warn snatch strap, aired the tires down to 10psi and gently crawled it out in 4 low. Also pulled a 30' UPS truck, up and out of a snow bank from an icy road above. The funnest though was a brand new(98) Chevy 2 ton plumbing truck with all the side boxes and tools, stuck in the sand up to the doors, on the beach at Rosarita Mexico. When I got there 3 Toyota Pick ups from a club, (sporting more chrome shocks than I could count) were all hooked up to this guy with a combo of chains and straps, just beating the piss out of the Chevy and the Toyotas. I watched for about 30 minutes and then offered to help, the Toyota guys were seriousely outraged and said they could get it done. I told them it would never happen, and again offered the plumber if he would like me to tug him up to Terra Firma,(the asphalt parking lot). He told me the Toyota guys were only charging him $150 and would I do it for the same. I was shocked, I asked them how they could charge a fellow American stuck on a beach in Mexico any amount of money, when all he needed was a helping hand. It also explained why they were so angry at my offer to assist. I aired down to 8 psi used the 6 " snatch cable and instructed the plumber when to help out by hitting the gas. It took to moderate yanks to get him out of the hole he had dug, and then an easy pull up to the black top. He insisted on paying something for the help, so we settled on topping off my ice chest with ice. The Toyota guys carried on spraying sand on my truck and just being a group of idiots for about an hour, untill one of the drunker one came over to our camp, started pissing on my rear tire and insulting my girlfreind. I put him to sleep, just after his wiz, and his Toyota buddies wouldnt even come over and drag his drunk, unconciouse ass back to camp. It was a very interesting day to say the least.
But to make a point, a full size truck geared and set up propperly can create enough traction and torque to haul out a lot more than what seems to be the general consensus here. Ive attached a picture of the Ford, from a Mud Bogg last year in Hanford, Ca. I took (5) 1st place trophies, (2) 2nds and a DNF in 8 races last year. Now its just the Tow rig for the Jeep.

89 Wrangler
If at first you dont succeed, your replacement will try and try again.


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blah blah blah "kids these days are lazy" blah blah blah "no one wants to work for anything anymore" blah blah freaking BLAH! I am so sick of having the woes of the world foisted upon the shoulders of my generation. Like all others before us have been men of iron and granite and we are the generation of silly putty. I don't know about you, but I work my ass off for what I have, even if I did come from the affluent north suburbs of Chicago. Nobody bought me a car, I hauled it out of some guys backyard and brought it back from the dead. Nobody pays my way, I work for a living and work hard at that! Yes there are lazy people in my generation, do you think there are no lazy 40/50/60 year olds out there? How about the busloads of older than 35 people on welfare? As for having autoshop, woodshop and other industrial classes cancelled in favor of computer classes...yes its a tragedy. I got my first taste of engines in my auto I class, I even learned how to make little electronic radios in Elec II. Schools are being faced with tough decisions now though, and in a very real sense, computers are becoming more important than industrial classes WHEN IT COMES TO FINDING A JOB. With more and more kids coming into the halls without a subsequent increase in funding schools are having to make do with what they have. As a future teacher, I have thought a great deal about this, and there is no real good way out of it. If you give a kid some basic computer instructions however, he or she has a better chance of getting a job right out of highschool. I don't advocate it, but you have to recognize the tough decisions that are being made. most schools don't think of industrial classes as unimportant (except for mine, but thats a different story) but they have no choice.

MudFlap 87 YJ POS!!
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Years ago when i first started wheel'n we saw a scout stuck up to it's doors in mud. A guy in a chevy luv tried to yank him out, using a a series of chain. Mw and my buddy decided to stick around. Even as a rookie i knew scouts were heavy as hell, and luvs just the opposite. Try #1 about 5' of slack, no good. #2 15' of slack, no good and chains still intact. #3 he backs up and uses all the chains lenght, about 50' in all. Oh, did i mention where he attached the chains on his luv, get this the shackle. Yep busted the shackle right off.

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif This thread has been an interesting one to read, and I couldn't resist putting in another two cents worth. Someone said it right when they said that this wasn't a "generational" thing. It isn't. When I was in Hi Skool in the fifties, we had guys who thought that adding a second carb to their Ford flathead doubled the horsepower....after all, it JUST STANDS TO carb=100 HP...two carbs=200 HP. We used to call it "Okie Reasoning" (not to offend the guys out there from the OK state)and it was typical of kids and how they thought, so that kind of thinking has been around since MAN has been around. I learned a long time ago, that it isn't the size of the engine, but getting the crankshaft horsepower to the GROUND. Gears, tires, and weight distribution.....that's the key to it, and how is a kid growing up on pavement supposed to know, whether it is 1957 or 1997? If I worry at all about our present generation, it is that people are a bit TOO SPECIALIZED. The notion that you can become a "computer guy" and not have to know anything else.....including how to change your own fantasy, and if the crap comes down in this country......if we have some kind of internal altercation where it's every man for himself......even for a short period of's going to be a real problem for folks who think making a telephone call will fix whatever goes wrong. I am dismayed at how "helpless" people can actually be. Not only do they not change their own oil, heck, I've seen grown men sitting alongside the road with a flat waiting for a tow truck while they blabbed away on the cell phone. Of course I can't really be pointing fingers, since I don't really understand exactly how to BAKE BREAD....the elementary staff of life....much less make steel; so in a way I'm too specialized too./wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.
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You guys have some good points.

I also don't think it's a generation thing, but a matter of upbringing in general and education. In this state the Governor has a hokey plan of giving ALL 7th graders laptops, yep, giving, so they'll be more "in tune" with the new age. Never mind they're graduating morons who can't add without a calculator. They'll be able to surf the web and find the answer though. How about Teaching them how to add, write, read, analyze, and actually use their brain. As to the shop mention, I have also seen people take nothing but shop and graduate without being able to add as well, so the door swings both ways. The problem with today's society in general is there are no well rounded individuals anymore. It's rare a kid graduates knowing how to formulate an argument, add numbers unaided, weld metal, do anything simple on an automobile, grow flowers, build a birdhouse, and write a letter. They're morons, not due to their own volition, but because they have to take classes like meditation, art appreciation, and inflatable sculptures (no joke). It has always been my opinon, well, at least within the last 20 years or so, that education has been slipping from the mainstream "Readin', Riting', Rithmatic" to areas that have little real world value. How many times has being able to pick a Picasso out of a lineup helped you? So why should it be taught in school?

My applause goes to those younger well rounded individuals out there. Yes, computer skills are almost a requirement on a resume', but it's not the only item looked for. The way the trend is leaning, the required skills in the next generation will be welders and fabricators because there'll no one left that knows the trade. An education is what you make of it, but if not given the opportunity to learn a specific task, you never get the education you want.

As to the computers in general, my older brother is working on a way to hook up his '79 CJ-5 via PLC's (Programmable Logic Controllers), to monitor and operate everything (on a screen and datalog drive) and perform various functions. He's even found the 12VDC PLC's to use. Of course his motor's blown, radiator's shot, tranny's tweaked and he needs a body lift, but he'll get to it sometime. He's applying his skills as a computer consultant to his hobby, God help us all...

People are always talking about how the schools have no funding and they have to bring their own paper from home. Fine, if it's that bad, cut out the extra curricular activities like sports and drama until things get better. That will never happen though, makes too much sense, then people would really complain.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

'81 CJ-8 Scrambled!
GM151/SM465/NP205 twinstick/7"Lift/33"TSL's/IHC D44's 4.10's Lock'd
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I would deffinitely not catagorize you into the over specialized group.
The most important thing that anyone can learn is how to be self sufficient. in order to be self sufficient a few character traits are mandatory. Probably the most important is the ability to search for the answers and solve, whatever questions or problems arrise. I left home when I was 16, and have relied on the character to my father taught me ever since. Ive learned a lot in the proceeding 24 years, but none more important than my character, and concience. My point is that, if you or your loved ones needed bread tommorrow, you would become a baker, and most likely a very good baker(no sense in doing anything half baked),(coulnt resist the pun). You can be anything you need to be once self reliance is instilled into your nature. Ill bet you could even learn to use that cell phone to call for a tire repair, if you had to make a meeting looking sharp in your suit.
As long as the next generations have sound character and consience, we and they will fare well.

89 Wrangler
If at first you dont succeed, your replacement will try and try again.
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well.. This is a generation thing!!! Why is it? because we are talking about a moment in time.. and since we are specifically talking people.. well that is why we call it a generation.. to narrow it down to the people from a certain time..
second.. i am not saying "everyone" because there are exceptions to everything..
But.. technology does breed laziness.. how many ladies are out there now from todays generation that dont know how to cook.. vs an older generation.. why.. technology.. we now have drive thrus, full meals in boxes or bags, microwaves, what have you.. how many men dont know how to change a tire.. why.. cell phones, 8 year warranties.. hidden baby spares.. what have you..
things change with time.. some views consider it good.. others not so good.. and some know the truth that it is alittle of both.. computers are a wonderful thing.. look at this board i get to read each day.. but im sorry... they are also bad.. since they are making it easier for a controlling agency to have overview of its people..
it is no ones fault.. except societies.. and within that society are the people that let it happen.. so you can place blame among them.. so if you are a person..and since you are reading this i do take you own a jeep.. and also try to fix your jeep.. then you do not sound like the type that is letting this happen.. you are doing something about this.. you are braking the norm... and expanding yourself as an individual.. that is what i take pride in.. being able to bake a loaf of bread, and making a fine italian pasta meal from scratch just after rebuilding my carb..

survival is instinct, but living takes guts
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As far as stories about the stories of the tractors pulling out Semi's and getting a strap from Big Foot, you guys rule. Stories like that are great.

As far as the other stuff, since the beginning of time, one thing has always been true, thing were always better, "back in my day". That's just how it is. Just like I think high schooler's with cell phones and laptops are rich little punks, my parents thought that about me with my desktop computer. That's just how it is. People have this thing about always trying to be better at stuff. Well to be any better at something then the guy before you, you pretty much have to be more specialized in it, ie spend more time at it. The more time you spend at one thing, the less you have for another, which is why you see guys who can't change a tire, but that's also why I have this computer to use. I would have loved to have enough time to take welding and automotive classes at votech, when I was in high school. Those skills sure would help me today. If I had though, I wouldn't have had the time to learn all the other stuff that I needed to get into college and become a missile designer. So since all parents want their kids to make money and have the good life, and the perception is that this mystical place is on the other side of college, and since computers mean alot to colleges and shop classes and general knowledge means nothing, we're losing useful skills that are gained in those areas. It does kinda suck, but to be honest I don't mind it since it allows a person who works hard and takes time to make themself well rounded in knowledge to do well since you can make you money at the thing you do well, but don't have to pay for things like mechanics to do simple things on your car, outdoor guides or something to take you out on a family vacation, or restaurant bills 'cuase you can't even cook a hot dog. I'll deal I guess. I'm sure I'll make fun of kids and how they're not going to make it with their cell phones and whimpy pokemon toys, but I sure won't be complaining about how he can't even mow his own lawn, when he turns into a doctor and finds a cure for cancer.

Tucson, Arizona
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CJ Dave and H8monday make some pretty good points...
TEX had it correct a while back when he said not one in one thousand 4X4 guys know their actual final drive ratio...
There are a whole bunch that know what the transmission and differential gear ratios are, and a few have actually gone so far as to figure tire size into the equation, but that actual final drive ratio seems to escape them...

I don't blame the ills of the world on the newer generations...
They just haven't been here long enough or been in any positions to make command decisions that will impact entire eco systems....
Besides, they seem too uneducated/ undereducated to do much damage to me.

They also seem to lack any kind of focus...
Probably because their parents let the TV raise them instead of actually raising their own children....
That constant stream of changing images and sound bites had to have an effect...

My generation is lost somewhere in the middle.
We had parents too old for the 'Free Love' movement (IE, not 'Baby Boomers') and were pissed-off about it.
We had, at best, indifferent school teachers, pathetic schools, textbooks that didn't tell the truth for fear of offending somebody, presidents that ordered burglaries, secret bombings and political assassinations, but the rest of the 'Good 'Ole Boy' network allowed him to sneak off and not be tried for his crimes...
Or heroes went from John Wayne and the Astronauts that walked on the moon, to 'The Fonze' and Farrah Faucet...
All because of that little boob tube, and parents that wouldn't let us out of it's grasp...

(I went to school in the 70's, so most of my teachers were off on the "Me Generation" crap, or so drugged out that they didn't make sense)

They ask why there was no one like Hunter Thompson, Jack London, Ernest Hemingway, Pablo Picasso, Ect come out of the post Baby Boom generation...

The older guys aren't going to like this, but...
I blame the ills of the world on the four previous generations.
Start with the so called, 'Baby Boomers', and work backwards four generations...
They raped, ripped and pillaged the earth, and now it's my generation and descendants that will have to clean the mess up.

The made command decisions to dump EVERYTHING.
Most people will say they didn't know any better back then... Bullsh*t!
If you read about any one of million court transcripts where corporations were sued, they knew about the contamination factors long before, and made conscious decisions to dump hazardous wastes, pollutants, contaminants and what ever...

Ever here, "WASTE NOT, WANT NOT"?
I'm sure thats older than four generations...
Four generations back is where the 'Throw Everything Away' got it's start...
Before that, everyone used everything over and over again.
(A lot of the depression era people still do that... God bless them.)

If you throw away anything that can be recycled,
If you don't buy products made from recycled materials,
If you don't buy shoes that are quality, and can be resoled,
If you buy great big gas guzzlers (Uv's) and drive to work or wherever alone,
If you dump and paint, thinner or chemicals down the drain,
If you dump used oil or antifreeze,
If you don't see that your old tires are put to some kind of use,
If you don't have energy saving bulbs in your home,
If you don't have water restrictors in your home,
If you don't keep your vehicle tuned up,
If you don't buy and order farm raised seafood,
ECT, ECT, ECT,.....
If you don't do these things, you are still part of the problem...

The Oceans look like a landfill, ... just add water.
Everyone here b*tches about leaving trash on the trails....
So you feel so good about yourselves, and you pat you selves on the back when you pack your trash out and throw it in those big dumpster....
.....Then that trash is taken out to sea, and dumped, and you don't care because some anti 4X4 group isn't throwing a fit...

You are worried about a few trees, when the oceans are in critical condition.
Fish stocks are down 85% from the turn of the century, but you just keep ordering Swordfish and red snapper, ect...

Entire eco systems are extinct. They will never be back, and the missing link in that food chain is headed directly towards you all, but you are asleep at the wheel...

Coral reefs are the breeding grounds for about 90% of animal marine life.
Coral reefs are reduced by 80% cense the turn of the century, and sill in a spiraling decline.

Some scientific studies say that up to 75 or 80% of our oxygen comes from ocean plant life.
That sea plant life is in a rapid decline, and so is your oxygen supply.

Even the guys from Maine admitted that the bays and water ways look like junk yards and sewers.
Heavy metals, PCB's, pesticides, herbicides, raw sewage and a million other things pollute our waterways and oceans.

The Food chain is breaking down, your oxygen supply is becoming extinct, new mutated diseases are popping up every day, and all the generations that caused it can do is b*tch about how lazy and worthless the later generations are...
You know, the generations that are going to have to clean up the messes, or we all die...

Like I said before...
I hope the human race becomes extinct before we kill the planet.


If you want to point fingers, start in the mirror...
There are bigger problems out there than education in automotive maintenance...
Not a damn thing gets done before YOU start...

(political commentary takes tact, something I don't possess.)

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"
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Horsepower?! /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif That dude in the pickup sure got a lesson. When it comes to pulling, it's TRACTION dude. Had an interesting tug-of-war take place at one of the local taverns on the gravel parking lot. F350 Powerstroke with 33" Yokohama's against 2500 6.5TD with 245/75 stockers. Guess who won? Guess again! Yup, 6.5 & it wasn't even close (well, in the end the F350 won because once the Chevy drug the Ford out onto the pavement & let the tranny shift into 2nd, the T-case grenaded & the Ford yanked him back/wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif). Why? Well, the solid-front on the Ford was hoppin' up & down while the IFS Chevy just dug in & pulled. Plus, the Chevy had the longer wheelbase (longbed X-cab vs. longbed reg-cab). Now, there's no doubt the Ford made better power, but it couldn't get it to the ground as well as the Chevy - at least not under those particular circumstances. Now, I'm not trying to start a solid vs. IFS (or 6.5 vs. 7.3) debate, just using this example to show that having traction is what makes you go, not power.


/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing
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