[Miket]

What\'s too Tight?

Front end specialists needed...

I replaced my front springs with new stock springs last week. It steers and stops straight. But...on a left hand turn the steering wheel stays about 45 degrees to the left instead of centering again. A right hand turn and the wheel centers correctly. This happened once before and the bearings in the steering knuckles were bad. I replaced all four of them about 4 years ago, shouldn't be bad again so soon. The knuckles are lubricated and seem tight.

Ross steering, recently replaced the bellcrank and the drag link is adjsuted properly. I did have one screw up though while replacing the springs. Trying to do them one at a time I had the left one installed and then with a jackstand under the lefthand side of the axel removed the u-bolts from the right side which caused it to shoot up in the air (smacking my jaw in the process, duh). I think that I may have bent the left spring. Would this cause the problem? I'm probaly going to take the whole (*&^( thing apart again this weekend (my daily driver). Should I look for anything in particular.

Thanks in advaance for your inputs.

 

[1756]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

I'm not a front end specialist by any stretch, but take a look at your steering stabilizer. One of my partsters wouldn't turn one way for nothing, then I noticed that the stabilizer was bent and rubbing. Hopefully it is something simple like that. Jack it up and steer it side to side and make sure nothing binds.

 

[RRich]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Yes what Aldo said - it should swing side to side the same no matter which way it's turned. Jack it up by the axle - both sides equally.

If you have a Panhard Rod, neutralize it. Disconnect one end of the Panhard. Roll the Jeepster on a flat level surface straight ahead for a few feet to neutralize the wheels, springs, axle etc.. Adjust the Panhard so it slips right in without and pulling or grunting - done.

Does it not self center on flat roads, or just crowned ones?
Does it feel stable at speed, or does it wander? It may need just a tad more positive castor.

Take measurements between front to rear axles. If they are not parallel within about 1/4", that could be the culprit.
First make sure one isn't sticking out more than the other - mainly visual - sight along the wheels, not the body to make sure they are equal. If need be, use two long sticks aside the wheels - prop them on oil cans or something - put it flat against the front wheel, see how much it sticks out away from the rear wheel - do that on both sides. I say front because the front axles usually wider. Be sure the steering is centered.

Then measure front to rear on both sides - should be the same.
Then measure in an "X" - left front to right rear, right front to right rear. Pick a joint or weld on each axle to measure from.
Helpful if you use a long bar or stick - put a flat end on one end, and make an adjustable pointer, Clamp, Vise-Grips etc. - sort of like a huge caliper. Helps too if you have a helper.

That kind of inspection would cost probably at least $100 at a good alignment shop.

Axles that are skewed to the side, or not parallel really make a detrimental difference.

Oh, almost forgot, He He - I doubt your jaw bent the spring.

 

[Miket]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

I don't have an aftermarket steering stabilizer if that's what Aldo means.

The Panhard rod may have gotten bent it did go up fast. I know the bushings are shot in it, but where to get replacements?

Does it not self center on flat roads, or just crowned ones?

The truck centers itself well both during left and right turns, but the steering wheel doesn't center after the left turn, make a right turn and the steering wheel is centered. Goofy isn't it?

Does it feel stable at speed, or does it wander? It may need just a tad more positive castor.

Did 70 on the way home on the freeway and there is no wander. I also don't notice any difference in the steering then when before I replaced the springs.

I measured the distance from the axel housing to the top shackel bolts after installation (vehicle flat on the ground). The right side is 1/16" closer than the left side. Too much difference? It's hard to measure them before it gets tightened because the weight of the differential weighs down the right side spring more.

I'm really thinking that I twisted the spring or one of the mounts when I removed the old right side. The left spring didn't really line up correctly after I unbolted it from the axel again, as at the shackel mount it was pointing off to the left about 2-3 inches from the mount. I'll probably wind up pulling the springs off again this weekend or next swap them around to see if the problem moves. Also if the current right spring lines up with the mount and shackel on the left side.

Thanks for the inputs

 

[1832]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

It sounds to me like the axle is shifting when turning to left. so do the panhard bar adjustment. I take it that your spring raised your jeep to stock or a little higher.
The bushing are the same as used on shocks with two peice bushings, check tire shops. Or cut some of the hour glass poly shock bushings in half.

John P.

 

[RRich]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Not totally sure what you meant - I think you said you unbolted the shackle on the left side - right side was still attached. It didn't "want" to line up with the shackle? I guess the body must have been supported when you did that?

Sounds like the Panhard was pulling it over - or the perches are not spaced right. I'd bet if you did it the other way, this one connected and the other one disconnected it would do the same thing with that spring end?
I wonder if it would do it with the Panhard disconnected?
Shot bushing shouldn't make a difference, just make it work less than it should. It shouldn't pull it.

I also wonder if it's just the U-bolts pulling strange - You might try with both springs ends attached, Panhard loose - loosen the U-bolts so the spring can shift a little on the perch if needed, then tighten them all slowly and equally. Get them loose, then whack the springs at the perch with a hammer to normalize them. If you spray the springs and perch with white paint before loosening them, you should be able to see if they moved. The movement probably won't be much, but important.

It's pretty hard to warp a spring - first signs I'd guess is the pack wouldn't want to stay together - they'd want to splay apart.
Maybe you could see that by looking at it close, maybe even loosen the clamps a little.

I don't know of a good source on the Panhard bushings, but I would think they'd be standard "somethings." Maybe take them into a real parts house, not a Kragen or the like - You can measure the holes where they came from (Panhard eye, bolt hole, depth etc, then check the Moog book's dimensions.

Measuring from the front axle to the shackle bolts is a start, - it shows the axle is probably perpendicular to the frame, but not necessarily to the other axle.
Even if you do a similar measurement - rear axle to shackle bolt, nothing insures the frame is equal length on both sides between shackle bolts.
Best way is measure between the axles themselves, front to rear. That's what the road "sees."

 

[FATBOB]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

I had the very same problem after I put
new springs on my chevy p/u.
Turned out to be loose ubolts.
I guess that's why they recommeneded
retorquing them after 500 miles.
It must be a common problem, and at
least its a cheap fix
good luck
Bob

 

[Miket]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Okay, finally got to do some more work on the problme today.

Removed the axel again from the springs and it wounldn't line up with the spring center pin/bolt about 1/2" - 3/4" off to the left of the spring. Tried to pull and push the axel into place but it would only twist the springs when the axel mount was lined up with the spring pin. Then I looked at the panhard rod, disconnected it and everything lined up. Replaced the bushing in the panhard rod with a spare from the front shackles and adjusted it to fit. Tightened up everything equally again and took for a drive, came back and checked the pan hardrod for adjustment according to Rich, perfect. The problem is still there, but at least it's put together right now. The vehicle centers, but the steering wheel doesn't after a right turn. Tacks good and stops straight.

It looks like the right outer tie rods end is going. I can turn the steering wheel then feel a clunk as the tierod end finally starts to move. Now where to find a replacement? I remember looking for one about 10 years ago with no luck so just replaced the left side and both ends on the bellcrank rod. I guess that 34 years is too much to ask from one little tie rod end.

So who has a lead on where to get this part. It is for the right side of a ross steering setup and has the hole in it so the belcrank rod can connect to it.
HELP!!!!!!

 

[jeepster4bob]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Talk to Ryan at www.the-jeep-guy.com he can set you up w/tie rod ends.

 

[GRQster]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Of course, repair ANY steering problems but if you just want your steering wheel to center, pull it and put it back at center when you find it.

 

[Miket]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

I guess you missed this from the previous post..

"The truck centers itself well both during left and right turns, but the steering wheel doesn't center after the left turn, make a right turn and the steering wheel is centered. Goofy isn't it?"

Changing the position of the steering wheel will only make it be off-center to the other side. Also a non-centered steering wheel is indicative of other problems in the front end and should only be done afer all other adjustments are made to the vehicle. Next time you pull your horn button off look at the steering shaft and the wheel, there are marks on them that are lined up at the factory. Ever wonder why?

 

[RRich]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

The vehicle does center, just the steering wheel doesn't? Sounds like the steering geometry itself is OK, - because the truck returns to center. But sounds like your rag joint, or column bushings are shot, in addition to that tie rod end.
Check that rag joint for sure - you don't want it breaking!

The Ross box, you have adjusted it tight? Not hard to do.

You should be able to match the tie rod end up at a GOOD parts house. Have the guys look it up in their Moog Catalog, it shows dimensions and pictures.

If that doesn't work try a good wheel alignment specialty shop. Not Firestone or Pep Boys butchers - yellow pages - someone that only does wheel alignments, maybe even frame straightening. They'll know where to get them.

Many many cars and trucks used a "2 holer" tie rod end. As I remember, it was used on Fords for many years - circa '56?
I think I remember them on GM's too. Been a looooong time, memory's fading.

 

[Miket]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Rich,

I replaced the rag joint and lower bushing about two months ago. So I'm really leaning towards the tie rod end. The is a parts place here in town the deals almost strickly with Jeeps so I'll see if he has the part. Quite a bit of old stock laying around. I bought the new 1 3/4" shackles from him and the new U-bolts for the dana 27 when I replaced the springs.

I'll let you all know what happens after the replacement.

 

[Miket]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Well, I replaced the tie rod end today after work. 30 years of rusted together parts gave me some trouble at first trying to unscrew the tie rod end, but with some penetrating oil and a bfpw (24" pipe wrench) I got it to turn in a bit then it was easy to loosen the rest of the way out. I've always found that if you can tighten a rusted bolt first it will usually loosen.

I should have replaced that 10 years ago when I did all the other tie rod ends. I can't believe how tight my steering is now after a short test ride a few times around the block turning left and right. No slop left in the steering wheel and it almost centers. At least it end up in the same position no matter what way I turn. I was thinking of changing over to saginaw steering, but I think I'll keep the ross setup now that it's the best its been in years.

Thanks for all the comments on the problem.

 

[1591]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Excellent. Glad you found the problem and fixed it with "regular parts" replacement. You say you did other parts 10 years ago, did that include anything in the Ross steering box? What about the drag link? Or did all new tie rod ends take care of it.

Brad.

 

[Miket]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

I wrote up a page on adjusting the drag link a while back you may be able to find it on the search engine, if not post back and I'll put it on here again. It's pretty easy to follow. The worst part is cleaning off all the old grease and crud the first time.

I replaced the other three tie rod ends 10 years ago, but couldn't find the outer right with the hole in it. The only problem I had with my steering box was being loose when I bought the truck. I tightened it up and it hasn't given me any problems since. If you have a factory service manual it gives some instructions for adjusting the box itself.

I also rebuilt the bellcrank assembly simple also, but you have to make sure you get the right size. One is 7/8" and the other is like 1 1/8" JC whitney has them in their catalog under the old jeep parts section for about $20 plus change.

Other than that I just make sure I keep everything grease up (including the drag link one fitting at each end) when I change the oil every 2000 miles which is like two months with this daily driver.

The more you drive them the better they work, the less you drive them the more they break.

 

[1591]

Re: What\'s too Tight?

Great. I have the service manual and I have adjusted the Ross box on the 69, but never replaced any of the parts except stabilizer.

The steering is loose and if I hit a bump at speed over 45 mph or so going straight, the front end will start to shimmy really bad. Only way to stop it is to turn one way or the other and slow down until it quits. Hit the same bump while turning, front end is fine. More weight in the back (lighter front end) makes the problem worse.

Good information on the bellcrank kit. Once I get the engine back in, I will have to address this problem as well.

Thanks for the advice.
Brad,