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What does "Forged" mean? Is it good?

3294 Views 19 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  CJDave
What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Earlier we were discussing the bolt issue again as it related to tow hooks and Team Rush mentioned to be watchful for "fake" forgings. So THAT prompted me to think: "Hmmmm......I wonder if everyone knows WHAT forgings are, and why they are good? At least one guy did ask about them, so for everyone's benefit, here is a sort of thumbnail explanation: A forging is a piece of STEEL...not cast iron.....STEEL which has been poured in ingot form....to GENERALLY resemble some specific item, like a hook for instance. I say generally, because "as poured" it is MUCH bigger in every direction that you could measure, and isn't very well defined. While it is still good and hot, it is grabbed by hand tongs, OR by mechanical tongs if it is big, and placed on a surface which may have sort of a pocket on it, a pocket that vaguely resembles a hook. Above this surface is a HUGE mechanical hammer....really huge...so big and powerful that it shakes the floor when it hits. The workers place the still-hot ingot over the pocket, and the mechanical hammer comes down repeatedly, and smacks the hot ingot. The pressure from the hammer does two things: ONE...it forces the ingot into a more specific shape...in this case a hook....and TWO...it compresses the steel...literally....into a smaller area.....squeezing out any spaces that remain in the structure of the steel itself, and making a DENSER material out of it. As the process goes forward, the workers use a smaller and smaller pocket as they pound the crap out of the now-beginning-to-cool-off ingot, and it starts to take on a recognizable shape. SMALLER.....but one heck of a lot DENSER.
So by using a machine called a DROP HAMMER, the workers have made a forging....something that has both stiffness, AND ductility. It can resist bending, but WHEN it finally does bend, it won't snap. This is a very desireable characteristic for things that matter, like front spindles, and steering arms. AND....tools. Your wrenches probably say: "Drop Forged"....what they mean is DROP HAMMER Forged. Good crankshafts were always made by forging, but in the 80's some auto makers went to cast steel cranks to save a buck. They worked, but a lot of them snapped off. The cast steel was there all right, but the DENSITY wasn't. I've heard that Weatherby Rifle barrels aren't bored to caliber, but are actually "poked" to near caliber.....THEN bored to size. By "Poking" a rod through the hot barrel and oversizing a small pilot hole in that fashion the theory is that the material compacts and the barrel is denser as a result. Sounds like a good idea, but I don't know if it's true./wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

Dave..... when I saw the message title I was gonna answer the question..... just finished the treatise on bolts..... but your description was far more visually interesting than anything I could have come up with...../wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

I question, though, whether the actual mass density of the steel is increased significantly. Certainly the grain structure (grain density) becomes finer and stronger, but I doubt you could tell a casting from a forging by putting them on a scale.

FWIW, though, I'll add that bolt heads are formed by a process called cold heading, which is essentially forging at lower temperatures. Basically a piece of round bar of the bolt's size is smashed on one end into a die which forms the head..... much stronger (and far cheaper, too!) than if it were cut from a piece of material as large as the head.

-Dana

Balance the budget--declare politicians a game species.
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif It occurred to me that if the ingot weight did not change, and the space occupied(volumetrically) was smaller, that it had to have increased in density somehow??/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif COLD HEADING....hmmmm....is that the way that they make the bolt heads more reisitant to "rounding off" without making the bolt too non-ductile(for want of a better word). I have always regarded making forged steel as definitely "Heavy Industry". Those drop hammers are awesome. What a swat!/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

Would a trip hammer be the same as a drop hammer?????
The way I understand it a forged steel would aline the grain of the steel to make it stronger . Same thing as said above .
Colt Single actions and clones all have forge frames. S$W Might be forged frames
I don't know. There is serval barrels that are forged. If you look at a ruger 10/22 factory bull barrel they left the forged marks still on it. kind of purty/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Yep....a trip hammer is just a lightweight drop hammer. And yep.....revolvers have forged frames. And yep....rifle barrels are forged also....then bored to caliber, not "poked" to caliber (usually). that's why it's so darn hard to make guns for high chamber pressures.....takes forgings to handle the hi-pressure from modern smokless powder. Modern? Erk!...What am I saying???? That was LAST century, not this one!!! Oh, well, so I'm 100 years off../wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

Some bolt heads are obviously formed this way, you can see it in those that have a washer formed as
part of the head. Higher grade bolts are mushroomed and then the faces are cut. In my lifetime I have
run across some where they missed cutting a face or two and even one or two where there were no
faces cut, just a round mushroom head. And no, it wasn't supposed to be that way.
G
Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

most barrles are forged and then button rifled. Glock on the other hand takes a red hot barrel
blank slips it over a mandrel and hammer forges the rifling into it, no cut rifling produces superior accuracy.
cjdave great explination of forgings! the "density" doesn't run all the way thru(except on small stuff)
generaly it all within 3/8" of the surface.later

HAWG WILD
ALL THOSE WHO WANDER ARE NOT NECESSARLY LOST /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

OK, since high school shop I've known to go with forged, whatever it is, part or tool. But, not being a metalurgist or anything of the sort, how about an explanation of the different type of castings and their benefits, ie, sand cast as opposed to whatever cast.

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
Get involved or lose it all, the choice is yours!
Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Sand cast items are sand cast because the outside shapes can be made definite enough using sand as the outside mold. If you are making engines, for example, the same pattern can be used to "print" a zillion flasks of sand, whereas if you were going with permanent molds, you would have to have several sets. Also, if you need to make a change, it is easier to change a pattern than change a dozen permanent molds. Permanent molds have to be made of Meehanite, and the machine work necessary to hog out an interior shape is considerable. Aluminum can be sand or permanent mold...or even die cast(no mold, no core). The late model split transfer cases are a natural for a die cast part. Sand cast aluminum is fairly easy, but you do have a problem with porosity since the metal is so lightweight. A lot of aluminum castings appear sort of grey due to heat-treating to increase strength, like a 356 Aluminum can go to about a T-6 heat treat and gain almost 30% more strength. The big thing in casting is not really what is best for the part as much as what CAN be done to make it, without producing an unacceptable scrap rate. High volume usually equals permanent mold if the part isn't too complex. The cores are sand anyway, with either permanent mold or sand cast. You should see them cast a 20' diameter bronze ship's propeller in a pit of sand!/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

Crap, this means its time to find out if my tow hooks are forged or cast. I looked, and didn't see a seam, but then again, it could have been ground flat. I bought them at Northern, so I am think it may be better to replace them.
Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

Man that 20' prop would've been cool! Is there anything you haven't see Dave?
I've got to talk women with you over a beer!/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

"No officer I haven't been drinking , Thats just how my Jeep drives"
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif Ship repair yards are cool. I was at Gunderson Bros in Portland once watching them do a re-work on a 19' wheel, pre-heat....build up....stress relieve. I went there when I was searching for a nice three-groove traveling block for a rig I was building. I found it next door at Snitzer where they were wrecking out a coast guard icebreaker. It weighed about 150 lbs, and we added a huge svivel hook which brought it up to about 200. It takes a lot of weight to come down when you have six lines, even if the drawworks is real free. We had a double-drum Hansen drawworks with 450' of 1/2" wire rope, 27 group wire rope so it was real easy to unspool./wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

A friend and I were just talking about if axels were forged. And if not would they be better if they were. But, I think they are. Any one know.
Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Definitely/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

Dave had to read your post 2 times before I could understand what the heck you were talking about /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif It was makeing a drill rig /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif I HOPE /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif
I understand one of the big break thru of Henry Fords flat head V8 was the sand casting the block. Cutting edge at the time????
Spent 3 Yr in the winter time in Mont. grinding to shape after rewelded 15 to 24 ft turbine water wheels do not care to do it agin. Gives you big arms holding that big air grinder and hose in the air all day. Wife thought it look kind of neet. I thought it kind of hurt and was not worth it./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

CJDave,...

from my days at school I also seem to remember that the heating/cooling/heating/cooling sequences and media had to do soemthing as well with the quality of the steel (not to speak of the metallurgic content of carbon, Ni, Cr which makes it more or less rust resistant). Pounding alone doesn't do the whole trick, or am I mistaken?

BlueJay

BlueJay
93 YJ with upgrades (and it is Blue!)
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

on the subject of barrels,

my best friend's dad owns a custom barrel shop and my friend works there. rifling buttons dont cut any material from the inside of a barrel, they "swedge" thier way through and that leaves the grain of the metal uncut and also more dense, like rolled threads versus die cut or single pointed threads. alot like a forging.

Jesse in Southern OR

description of a BIG rifle: "kills on one end, wounds on the other"
Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Don't confuse hardening with forging now,.....it's not the same thing./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Making high tensile steel or steel with certain properties is like a raw materials thing whereas forging is really more like processing./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
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Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

The only thing that I would correct with Dave's description of the forging process is that the material is not "poured" to a similar shape. They actually take bar stock cut to the appropriate size. It is then heated and then hammered into the shape desired. Then the "flashing" is trimmed. I have family in the business in the Bay area. I too worked for shipyards and a few machine shops.
Re: What does \"Forged\" mean? Is it good?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Hi Bob! /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Greetings from 4500 Ft elev./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif I've been at near sea level for a week and boy did my ears puff out when I climbed "the hill" to Sugar Pine tonight! You're right about the bars....they sort of "bite" them off as I recall??/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
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