Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

Jeeze,

you would think that at the current gas prices most folks ( let me say most SMART folks) would be happy someone is pushing something other than an internal combustion engine.

you and I, and we and the rest of us ALL know that no one is planning to take your Jeep, or your truck, or your damned PWC ( id sink everyone if it were me personally)they wake me up at the lake!.

its very obvious, to MOST folks, that we need a longterm plan for daily transport that does not rely on overseas oil, or any other non controllable/depletable resource.

we can and will have our gas guzzlers for a long time, the question is how long will WE be able to afford to run them?

OzarkJeep

"I cant wait on a compromise, Id rather loose on my own."

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

Ozarkjeep, I'm glad you brought that up (can always count on a contrary pov!) Anyway, the technology is WAY off in the future for anything AFFORDABLE that will put out any sort of useable power for longer than a half hour. If the algore has his way you'll be walkin long before there is an alternative to internal combustion (don't believe what you saw in the beginning of "Mission to Mars"! Its farther away than 2020). And please don't tell me you missed the overall point, the guy is a MENACE to our very way of life.

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
http://www.off-road.com/land

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

Ozark I can tell you how long we can afford to run them,Ten minutes after an Al Gore election victory he wants us here in the U.S. to pay four to five bucks a gallon for gas like they do in europe when we have plenty of oil all we have to do is drill for it.I'm not saying don't develope something else just do it now while we have plenty of oil.And yes no one is going to take your jeep or your truck they're just going to make it to expensive to use for recreation, so in effect they have limited your use of it which accomplishes thier goals.

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

I dont want to get into this stuff again, But how is any president gonna raise the cost of gas. Tha extra taxes and such all have to be apropriated through the House and Senate, which is,and should remain Republican controlled, as it has been for the last 6 years.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

Well H8, the president himself might not be able to do it, but the goon he appoints to the EPA certainly can exponentially increase the cost of gas, by hyperregulating the industry, requiring wacky reformulations that haven't been proven, decreasing things like sulfur content in the fuel to nearly non existent levels, all of which will serve to only boot the price of gasoline up to the sky and leave everyone without the ability to afford it. /wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif Most of those things effect the supply by the way... They make the supply go way down since it's harder to refine or reformulate it that much, and it takes more time, plus you are left with less overall product anyhow since the other stuff wouldn't meet the legal requirements... /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif And I'd bet you about anything that if Gore gets elected he puts a greenie wacko goon in the EPA and the USDA, and all those other agencies... /wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif So yes he'll (perhaps indirectly) still be responsible for kicking the price of gasoline and other allegedly "environmentally unfriendly" things through the roof...

Have you guys heard about that Honda thing that is a gas/electric hybrid where they use that tiny gas engine to turn a generator (i assume) to power the electric motor(s) to make it go? It allegedly gets in the 60mpg range easily... I think that'll be the next step for a while before other electric technologies come way down in price and go way up in efficiency/usefulness (i.e. being able to be used for longer than 30 minutes or so before needing an all day recharge).

Sorry to butt in on you guys' forum...

Tim
ORC Land Use columnist
My August article on ORC

http://www.off-road.com/land

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

H8 see what 454 has to say plus the republican congress has not stood up to clinton why would they suddenly have the hutspa to stand up to Gore.

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

My excact point.
The republicans have had the power to get so much more done, than they have. They have spent to much time pointing fingers and trying to idscredit our moraly challenged president, that they have forgotten how to role up their sleeves and get to work. But if you think that putting in a president that will just roll over for their every whim, so that they have to fight for nothing is gonna help the economy, just remember that the republicans ran up the deficit to 3.7 trillion dollars when they had controll last time, and more small buisnesses failed(% wise) than any other time in history. Interest rates and housing also skyrocketed. Im not sure what you are expecting from having a republican in office, but dont count on all of the sudden having new trails opened, or some sort of off roading shangrala in the near future. Although the republicans will not grab land they also will do nothing to have the private sectors open up for us. Take central Oregon for example, there are countless roadways and wilderness areas, but they are entirely corporate owned and they are all locked up tight as a drum, with no tresspassing signs everywhere. Im just not sure what kind of improvements we will see if the republicans are left to make all the decisions, in the Oval office, The hOuse , Senate and Supreme Court.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

We have to pick the leeser of two evils in my opinion.

Hank
88 YJ (sort of)

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

Hank is correct .....it is a lesser of two evils thingie. Each direction is a double edged sword. If you think Gore is such a demon with his environmental posture (and yes, he will be a demon) you should check out the flip side of the coin. Bush's own state Texas is a haven for polluting industry.....in some areas to the point where an air quality check is required before school kids are let outside for recess. They both blow smoke up your a$$ to get in office.....they confuse you with a bunch of idealistic bull$hit to distract you from the real boning that they are giving you. Most of you haven't got a clue of how we are all being suckered into giving the reigns to someone who, in one form or another, is going to shove it up your a$$.

There is one, and only one, reason why we depend on foreign oil. It's cheaper. Believe me.......if it was cheaper to refine the domestically produced product......we would.

Most technologies are sponed out of need. When, and only when, electric/hybrid/fuel cell/ steam cars become the cost effective alternative to the internal combustion engine will they be put to use "en mass". ALL the current enviro cars are subsidized. That is, either they are developed via federal grants.....or are a REQUIRED % of production (which is then subsidized via our regular internal combustion engined vehicles. There are many products that can do the same job and consume far less energy (toasters, refridgerators, etc.) but since we get energy fairly cheap (I know it doesn't seem cheap) the competitive market produces cheap products that consume too much energy......as the price of energy goes up these products will become more energy efficient. There is just no way around it.......economics dictates these things. I don't want a "Gore" environmental policy governing my consumption.....but I'm adult enough to realize that sooner or later.......environmental issues are going to turn into a "push comes to shove" situation. When push comes to shove it gets very expensive......so.......do you pay now??? (Gore).......or pay more later (Bush). Tax and spend......or bump the bill to next generation???

It is truly a case of choose your poison - you'll only get the worst of either. Check my signature......it just about says it all.

GeeAea

Figures don't lie ....... but liars sure do figure.

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

there are plenty of electric cars out there that run well over 30 miles before needing a recharge.

Ive got a few sirtes for anyone interested. I looked into this a a while back as gas prices were climbing.

I found several cars under $5000 that would do what I needed to do every week with a one day charge, and possibly replace the batteries every few years.

depending on application it is VERY possible, even probable that an electric car can do your daily commute, and at current gas prices is CHEAPER over a certain period of time.

I still want an electric Samurai

OzarkJeep

"I cant wait on a compromise, Id rather loose on my own."

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

In reply to:

The republicans have had the power to get so much more done, than they have. They have spent to much time pointing fingers and trying to idscredit our moraly challenged president, that they have forgotten how to role up their sleeves and get to work.

In my humble opinion we have more laws than we need now, we don't need a Congress constantly spewing out more... And incidentally the only thing I've known about Klintun that didn't deserve discrediting was Alan Greenspan, the one appointment Klinton made that I at least somewhat agree with. Gore is even worse than that with his hypocritical (is that proper use of that word?) attitude towards the environment... If owning stock in a mine and an oil company and then turning around and babbling on about how those industries really are bad isn't being a hypocrite, then I'm not exactly sure what is. Another thing Gore did was for publicity shots, he went canoing on at least 2 seperate occasions, for a scenic photo shoot. Just to be sure his canoe wouldn't get stuck, they opened up the dams, thus increasing the turbidity of the river and effecting the entire river ecosystem just for some pictures of the VP so his canoe wouldn't get stuck... /wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif He wasted millions of dollars worth of water on those by the way. That guy isn't good for anything except being a hypocrite. Perhaps tighter regulations in some instances are in order, but all should be based on a combination of economics and real proven research not what the environmentalists seem to toss to the government now. I mean of course don't mandate the area be immediately cleaned up, gradually do it, so the companies have time to prepare and aren't just forced to shut down which causes loss of jobs. Also to be mentioned is the mismanagement of forests under the Klintun/Gore term and the likely mismanagement over Gore's term as president if he were to be elected also. Wildfires have a far harder time spreading when forests are selectively thinned. Exactly opposite of what Klintun/Gore support. With the forests we need a balance of economic needs, recreation needs and environmental needs, those things all have to be looked at, but Gore won't do that you can be assured.

About Bush and the environment in Texas, if the State EPA (not sure what it's called in TX) fails to take action and it's really that bad, then the Federal EPA will (read: is supposed to) step in and do something. But if it is that bad and FedEPA didn't step in maybe it tells us they're trying to do too many things at once and are lousy at picking their priorities. Incidentally CA, the state with the toughest environmental regs is also what would seem to be the worst state for pollution, and they don't have Mr. Bush leading them, how do you account for that?

In reply to:

Im not sure what you are expecting from having a republican in office, but dont count on all of the sudden having new trails opened, or some sort of off roading shangrala in the near future. Although the republicans will not grab land they also will do nothing to have the private sectors open up for us.

If the Democrat in this election (Gore) gets elected we are 100% guaranteed of land grabs and more land closures. At least if we have Bush elected president, we at least get to keep our access to public lands. I don't see where having the private sector opening up for us really matters, I just want a president that we at least get somewhat of a chance of keeping our access to public land and to all currently established trails. After all some chance is better than no chance at all...

In reply to:

Take central Oregon for example, there are countless roadways and wilderness areas, but they are entirely corporate owned and they are all locked up tight as a drum, with no tresspassing signs everywhere.

Does that mean you're against privately owned land? Or just against businesses having the same right to own land as you or I have? Are you saying you think the Republicans if they got the house, senate and presidency would sell off the public land?

In reply to:

as the price of energy goes up these products will become more energy efficient. There is just no way around it.......economics dictates these things. I don't want a "Gore" environmental policy governing my consumption.....but I'm adult enough to realize that sooner or later.......environmental issues are going to turn into a "push comes to shove" situation. When push comes to shove it gets very expensive......so.......do you pay now??? (Gore).......or pay more later (Bush). Tax and spend......or bump the bill to next generation???

There are companies that produce things such as low emission vehicles are here already, I believe Honda, Toyota, and likely some aftermarket companies make them. I'm pondering one of them sometime... 60plus MPG would be pretty nice when it comes time to put the gas in it... The prices (of most options) are about competitive with the price of other new vehicles I might add, from what I've heard. In CA GM leases the EV1 their totally electric vehicle, although it still doesn't have the range to make it a viable option for a lot of people since charging stations aren't set up in many places, so one charge has to get you there and back... I guess where I'm going with this is if you want one, go ahead and buy it, it'll end up paying for itself due to increased gas mileage and decreased spending on gas pretty quickly anyhow... I certainly like the idea that all the cash saved in gas is surplus to be able to do with as you like, that'd pay for at least one or two major mods to the rig each year all by itself most likely...

Sorry guys I'm rambling now, so I'll shut up... Also, incidentally I got this post sort of mixed around in my replies to the various people.... /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif Have a good one guys... /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

Incidentally ozark, I'd like to see the sites about the electric cars, if it wouldn't be too much trouble...

Tim
ORC Land Use columnist
My August article on ORC

http://www.off-road.com/land

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

Ozarkjeep:

Get real. Yes, there are some vehicles that will go 100 miles between charges, BUT, don't expect to use a windshield wiper, heater, defroster, stereo, lights, or any other modern convenience found in a new car. HVAC in electric transport is non-existent. Don't get me wrong, if and when a suitable alternative is developed, I will more than gladly make the switch. I am for energy efficiency, but not at the sake of safety, or productivity. I am willing to sacrifice some, but not all conveinence or comfort. You still need to live without if you buy a hybrid vehicle.

The point of cost, Let us in on who what when and where a $5K electric is being sold. I am very interested. The battery pack will by half that! Be specific!

Now, you are going to replace the gas car with a vehicle that needs batteries every two years or sooner. What about the envorinmental impact of mining, smelting, shipping, manufacturing, charging. All you do is move the greenhouse gas producer from your city street to your industrial facility. We havn't even touched on the issue of waste or the impact of battery issues.

Looking forward to the $5k electric though.

Enjoying Montana's Big Sky & Big Game

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

Jralph,

I found several under $5000, of course they were USED comversions, a late 80s fiero in Tulsa I was really tempted to buy was one.
some as cheap as $1200, that were driveable but with shortened range from aging batteries.

they all have working lights, windsheld wipers and stereos.
your right they dont have heat and air ( well the cheaper conversions dont)

but many do have heat and AC, they just arent in the $5000 range!
electric is in its very early stages granted, but it needs funding and demand to grow more!
the market is actually pretty advanced! when I was browsing these sites I was amazed a the kits and controllers and stuff that is availble now.

the batteries generally last longer that 2 years from what ive read, but that also depends on the quality of the controller/charger and your charge/discharge , and usage cycle.

check these out for some neat info.
http://www.electroauto.com/
http://www.mcn.org/a/innEVations/
http://www.evparts.com/BuyingAnEV.htm

I was actually looking at the elec car to break my reliance on oil prices, not to decrease my personal environmental impact. So your theory of moving greenhouse gases from roads to industry is very possible, but completely moot in this scenario.

OzarkJeep

"I cant wait on a compromise, Id rather loose on my own."

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

I take exception to the statement that alternative fuel source vehicles are more than 20 years out. Many fleet vehicles, UPS and even some of the local electric in Alabama as well as others, are running on natural gas, while a hydrocarbon based fuel they produce fewer emissions. If I am not mistaken, there are busses in Chicago running hybrid fuel cells. In fact, if you had a house in the boonies, or feared the government enough, you could buy a fuel cell to power your house. These are zero emissions electrical power sources. All three of the American, well two American and one German, car companies have alliances and research into incorporating the fuel cell into the modern automobile.

I believe that one of the major stumbling blocks to integrating alternative energy source vehicles into society is the existing infrastructure of gasoline retailers and big oil companies.

I am somewhat familiar with the PEM fuel cell as some of my friends and I were doing research into them and their control 6 years ago. We were even able to power a light and small fan indefinitely, so it seamed, with an energy source the size of a cassette tape. One of the stumbling blocks back then was developing a fuel distribution network.

Mike84cj7

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

I am of that unenviable state in which I find myself supporting Gore for many of his better qualities while still being a defender of my hobby. My wife (a republican) and I have talked this topic to death.

First: True Gore may precipitate more land grabs, but under Bush, our beautiful lands will be damaged beyond recognition. I would rather have the lands that could be opened in a restricted sense (liscences, events, etc.) saved as they are than to risk their destruction. Besides, oil companies, in their searching for oil on public land, would stop us from using the land quicker. They finance the government, more so for Bush than Gore, and they hate having people around who could "get hurt".

Second: I have seen an electric Jeep Wrangler that ran quite well. It is very heavy (better traction) but the idea has some merit. Viable alternative energy resources shouldn't be meant to reduce pollution. Any electric vehicle, excepting exotic solar cars, would have to get its energy from somewhere. Coal, Nuclear, even water (dams destroy ecosystems too), and windmills (wonderful view...poor birds...) cause damage. Any alternative fuel still combusts and short of Hydrogen and oxygen, most form some toxic compound. The only advantage to different resources is that they make us less dependent on anyone else. Imagine what competing energy systems that had the same performance could do to their own cost. Capitalism is about competition, yet we all use the same gas...funny eh?

Third: The military Hummer. We, the taxpayers pay for these amazing beasts. Once they have reached the end of their service life, they are returned to AMG for refurbishing, and then sold back to the military or to the public at huge cost (those that are beyond refurbishing are destroyed). The administration that was in power when this deal was constructed and signed was republican. I don't want a government that uses our money to buy items that are returned to their manufacturers for free, yet not offered to us. Check the DOD listings, you can buy a spent ballistic rocket, but not a Hummer!!!

Fourth: Why do we worry so? We still live in a democracy with checks and balances. Do as Off-Road.com advises, write your congressmen. Without them, Gore can't take the land. Also, why don't we as a group have better relations with Gore? We profess to love the environment, why doesn't some club invite him to a trail ride. Get him hooked. I'm sure that once he was exposed to our hobby, he too would become addicted.

Lastly, Why don't we as a group try to work with the government? Offer our services (like so many western clubs have begun doing), get involved in local government (they have some power), and prove to the government that we are the responsible ones, the ones who deserve (by our being Americans and by our PROVEN ability to maintain and not destroy our lands) to use our lands for our hobby.

Peace fellow Jeepers, our love depends on having a bipartisan government...no one power has it all.

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

One little problem here:
"Do as Off-Road.com advises, write your congressmen. Without them, Gore can't take the land."
He sure as heck can, Clinton has taken mucho acres by abusing the Antiquities Act, no need to ask Congress, so what makes you think the Gore won't, he's really the one that is owned lock, stock and barrel by the GAGs.

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
http://www.off-road.com/land

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

Then get to know the guy. Win him over..OWN HIM. If he's so easily bought, then why hasn't he been bought for us? Surely the aftermarket has the money...

Just thinking out loud now...

I must say that I read TR's post about the content on these posts. I have to agree even though I am equally guilty and as such will resist the urge in the future to discuss this on this board...land use maybe, but not here.

I would also like to commend you guys for you passion on this subject, i just want to suggest that all the Anti-Gore (and Anti-Bush) shouting does no good for anybody. If you don't know where you stand by now, then you had better not base your descision on the words of these posts, get out and read what they are saying, look back at their histories, consider their other stances as well. Who cares if we keep our land but can't afford our hobbies because of misappropiated funds. Oh well, I love Jeepin and that's all that counts. Jeeps can get over anything, even this.

Peace

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

remember the gas crisis of the 70's. same plot. we have plenty of gas, al gore got the oil companies to raise the price of gas to create a crisis. couple week before election it will fall and gore will win by landslide. people will think hes god. al gore created this himself. if we have just a problem, how come gas in ca is pushing $2.00 and here in Al it is running $1.30

brownbagg

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

First of all, I must apologize to TR et. al. who don't like political posts, but some of the stuff here needs a comment... After this, we can move it to the Land Use, General board and continue it if replies are going to happen...

In your first point, Extinct, you mention that "our beautiful lands will be damaged beyond recognition" under Bush. How exactly is that? There are regulations in place to protect areas, the USFS can still protect the areas, even with Bush. Algore is eating directly out of the hands of major environmental groups who have sworn that they will not rest until all OHV activity is illegal. Is that what you'd like? Gore is a hypocrite who has in more than one instance done environmentally unfriendly or things downright hostile to the environment. I listed a few items in my previous post about that.

In reply to:

Besides, oil companies, in their searching for oil on public land, would stop us from using the land quicker.

Chances are if they haven't found any oil reserves on public land yet they probably won't. And even if they do find oil reserves on public land and want to use them, fine let them it might help reduce the price of gas and our dependency on foreign oil. Reducing the taxes on gasoline would be great also however.

In reply to:

Why do we worry so? We still live in a democracy with checks and balances.

For the past 2 presidential terms, we have had a President who has bypassed Congress by executive orders. He has been locking up the land by the use of the Antiquities Act of 1906 illegally. The areas to be made into monuments under the Antiquities Act are required to be of the smallest area possible, and be of scientific or historic significance. Scenic beauty or whatever else Klintun has based those monuments on aren't approved reasons to invoke the Antiquities Act, and are as such bypassing the checks and balances.

In reply to:

Offer our services (like so many western clubs have begun doing), get involved in local government (they have some power), and prove to the government that we are the responsible ones, the ones who deserve (by our being Americans and by our PROVEN ability to maintain and not destroy our lands) to use our lands for our hobby.

Local and state level government is the only level of government are the only ones that will listen to us OHV enthusiasts currently. The Federal Government USFS, etc, are ran by mainly environmentalists appointed by Klintun. Since Algore will appoint the same type of people to these positions, we will still not have much of a say in what happens. Klintun and Gore listen only to environmental groups, not us.

In reply to:

Then get to know the guy. Win him over..OWN HIM. If he's so easily bought, then why hasn't he been bought for us? Surely the aftermarket has the money...

The aftermarket doesn't have nearly the amount of money that the environmentalist groups that Klinton and Gore are siding with has. They have a large portion of their income from donations. We don't typically have donations going for us. People are more likely to donate to what they think will help the environment. However, in many cases environmental groups do what is bad for the environment...

In reply to:

Who cares if we keep our land but can't afford our hobbies because of misappropiated funds.

Funny that you should mention misappropriated funds... Mr. Clinton's USDA has misappropriated $5 billion of the taxpayers' money. The following is a quote from a news article:

In reply to:

Scripps Howard News Service<
WASHINGTON _ The Agriculture Department has lost track of $5 billion of
taxpayer funds, and investigators can't tell if the missing cash is the
result of theft or sloppy bookkeeping, the agency's inspector general said
this week.<
Now the department wants Congress to give it another $100 million to find
the missing revenue.<
``The bottom line is that we don't know'' where the money is, Inspector
General Roger Viadero told a congressional hearing Wednesday.<
He said the department's accounting procedures are so sloppy that he will
not give it a clean bill of health for properly spending its $60 billion
budget this year. Aside from the $5 billion, there are other irregularities,
including:<
* More than $20 million was diverted from soil conservation funds to
paint buildings and garages in Southern California, including buildings
privately owned.<
* A vehicle listed on Agriculture's inventory as being worth $97
million, and a microscope with a price tag of $11 million.<
* U.S. Forest Service highway construction contracts hidden under
expenditures as ``stream enhancements.''

So it's not like Democrats don't misappropriate money as well.

There are many other issues here as well that I won't get into here...

If anyone wishes to discuss this further, let's move it to the Land Use, General board, this is a good discussion, I'd like to see it continue, but somewhere it won't bother TR et. al...

Tim
ORC Land Use columnist
My August article on ORC

http://www.off-road.com/land

 

Re: Welcome to Al Gore\'s \"Environment Decade\"

In reply to:

True Gore may precipitate more land grabs, but under Bush, our beautiful lands will be damaged beyond recognition. I would rather have the lands that could be opened in a restricted sense (liscences, events, etc.) saved as they are than to risk their destruction.

Yes, there is a ton of oil in Alaska - about 90 billion barrels worth, according to most geologist estimates. It is under a federally protected 9 MILLION acres. Bush as proposed using a couple thousand acres to drill for this oil (sweet crude - the good stuff). The pipeline is already in place, and drilling techniques have supposedly come a long way. A couple thousand acres of 9,000,000 is about 0.001% of the land. Think about how much forest was destroyed by the Clinton-Gore administrations poor fire planning this year, and even if a couple thousand acres got completely wiped out, I say BFD. We're the greatest coutry on earth, we should at least have the capability of being self-reliant.

In reply to:

Third: The military Hummer. We, the taxpayers pay for these amazing beasts. Once they have reached the end of their service life, they are returned to AMG for refurbishing, and then sold back to the military or to the public at huge cost (those that are beyond refurbishing are destroyed). The administration that was in power when this deal was constructed and signed was republican. I don't want a government that uses our money to buy items that are returned to their manufacturers for free, yet not offered to us. Check the DOD listings, you can buy a spent ballistic rocket, but not a Hummer!!!

Military hummers are also quite often scrubbed spotless inside and out, including mechanical components, and pushed off the deck of Naval ships in order to form artificial reefs for the little fishies. That was also a Republican plan, if I remember correctly. Whoa! Republicans caring about the little fishies! Couldn't be! I sure know that I enjoy a good grilled Spotted Owl breast or Baby Seal sandwich every now and then. Just kidding.

In reply to:

why don't we as a group have better relations with Gore? We profess to love the environment, why doesn't some club invite him to a trail ride. Get him hooked. I'm sure that once he was exposed to our hobby, he too would become addicted.

Yeah, Gore would tell us that he loved it, had a great time, he'd protect it, and vote for me, then would turn around and say that he watched us run over a mommy desert tortise and her baby tortises while setting a forest fire, shooting Bambi's mom (darn guns!), polluting the environment with our evil internal combustion engines, and chopping down a 2000 year old redwood for firewood to barbeque some endangered Spotted Red-Bellied Warbling Puffer Squirrel. But that's just a little harmless exaggeration.

Marc
Webmaster, Contagious Off-road
http://contagious-racing.8m.com