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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry but I just can't take this sh!% anymore. Does anymore here give 2 sh!%s about ELIAN GONZALES. Send the little SOB back and ALL his relatives for all I care. I'm so sick of hearing about this I can't watch the news. Is this the only thing worth reporting? I've got an answer for all the rafts, barges, etc. of refugees but I'll save that for another thread. Am I the only one who feels this way? I usually don't get too fired up about things but I just flipped through five different channels that had that story. Janet Reno needs to borrow a set and kick the kid back to Cuba. Sorry but I had to vent somewhere.

Can you fix it?
I got a welder and a grinder. Heck yeah I can fix it./wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
No, you're not alone. Everyday there's more of these people coming from everywhere. I don't have a problem if they positively contribute to our country but most don't. As far as CNN (Commie News Network), they usually don't have the talent or writers to do anything but beat a worthless story over the head until viewers go comatose.
later
(just wish our country was what it used to be....before the lawyers/politicians destroyed it)

 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I can't believe this. If I were holding my son from his mother they would have come into my house take him and then put me in jail for a long time.

The news networks are over doing it. I just hope that Miami is still standing when this is over.

Lunatic
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yes in deed lunatic.. i say.. send the kid home to his dad.. what right does the good ole usa have to keep a child from his father.. none.. nuff said
and dont give me any of the save him from castro commie crap.. im sorry if that is where he was born.. but that is where the dad is.. and we shouldnt even consider keeping a child from his only living parent.

survival is instinct, but living takes guts
 

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I have no problem with immigrants as long as: 1) They get here legally; and 2) They do something positive, and not just sit around on welfare or sell/consume drugs, do crime and that kind of stuff...

Last time I knew, floating over from somewhere with no paperwork what so ever and no legal right to enter this country, wasn't the legal way to get here. Or did Klintoon write an Executive Order on that one too?

Tim
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One of the radio stations here sums it up pretty well--they start out the news in the morning with something about "Illegal Alien Gonzales", read the story and then rip on it for the situation going on so long. Send him back. That's what happens when they catch people swimming the Rio Grande from Mexico.

 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I just think it's sad that this has become such a political issue. It's not politics, it's custody. His mom is dead, his dad isn't. Custody awarded to the father days after the kid washes up on shore here. Case closed. Say what you want about Cuba, about what a good life he'd have here, about relatives he has here now. If any of our wives or exwives took off for Cuba with our kid months ago & died on the way there, would there be any doubt that the kid would be home by now? Hell no. This poor kid is a victim. He's a victim of our politicians, Cuba's politicians, and his own family. And the longer we keep him here, the harder it will be for him to go home. And make no mistake about it, he should be with his father.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My girlfriend is Cuban-American... you know what she says?

Send his illegal a$$ back to abana-kuba. (see, she really is cuban)

But this kid went to disney, and washington, and the space coast, and now some fedral judge has given him 3 more days with his grandparents... Do we have the option of shooting Elian to put us out of our misery????!

Btw - I think this is something a welder and grinder can't fix... /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

Florida Mud CJ-5
'77 RB304, t-150 D20 4" 35" swampers
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
OK mybe not the welder and grinder but my other vehicle is an army helicopter
Take your pick .50 cal, 2.75 rockets, Hellfire laser guided or Stinger heat seeking missiles. THAT WILL fix it.

Can you fix it?
I got a welder and a grinder. Heck yeah I can fix it./wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Better not use the stingers, they might find some reporter spewing on in their exclusive, live to the minute broadcasts... You know the ones, where they say, and now to Bob. Bob? - silence - he's staring at the camera and doesn't say anything - then says five words and cuts to previously recorded footage...

Better yet, why not just put a few stingers in the air, and let'em pick the targets, much like the HARM anti-radar missles... they just lock in on the biggest hot air, be it reporter politician, etc... WE'd be better off... ;)



Florida Mud CJ-5
'77 RB304, t-150 D20 4" 35" swampers
 

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You guys may believe anything you wish. However, you should take note that this Miami Cuban American family is showing that Clinton Administration are truly a bunch of two faced morons.

IMHO, what person in his/her right mind would want to live in Cuba voluntarily?????/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
There's actually several things going on with this situation. I am strongly against illegal immigration, but there are other things in play here.

First, there is a special law regarding the citizens of Cuba. Applies only to Cuba. If a Cuban sets foot on U.S. soil, regardless of age, he has a right to stay here for up to a year while all the immigration stuff is taken care of. This law isn't being obeyed in Elien's case.

Second: The Klinton admin is doing everything it can to normalize relations with Cuba. They would like nothing better than to help their commie buddies. Problem is, many of the Cuban's in Miami had land, houses, valuables and whatever else stolen from them by the Castro govt. They are entitled to own the stuff they owned before the govt took everything from them. Many of these people were able to escape with just the cloths on their back, but they still owned property. Part of Cuba's acceptance into the rest of the world is to somehow clear up this large scale theft by the govt. If the people in Miami can be discredited by showing that they are radical, dishonest law breakers, then the Cuban govt may have an easier time dismissing any claim to lands they may have.

A general question. Knowing nothing else, doesn't it concern you that the Klinton govt has taken a particular stance in this issure? Based on my knowledge of the Klinton's the fact that they want a particular thing done makes me suspicious by that fact alone.

Janet Reno and the Cuban community have never gotten along. The Cuban community is generally pretty conservitive and in past situations when Reno was in Florida, and their paths crossed, they were generally on different sides of the street.

Two more things to ponder. The Elien G. thing is taking up all the news. What else is going on that isn't being reported? And try this on - What is Klinton's biggest concern right now? Would it be getting Algore elected? Pardons, maybe? Algore is advocating keeping Elien in the U.S. - going against Klinton. What happens to Algores chances if Klinton all of a sudden comes up with something like, "Gee folks. All this time I thought Elien should go back to his commie homeland, but guess what. Algore, bless his patrotic, wonderful, bleeding heart has shown me how wrong I am. It took a real man with a real back bone to stand up to me and show me where I was wrong. Elien should stay in the U.S." Algore can say that he will do all the good things Klinton did to keep the economy going, but he is a real man and is big enough to make even Kiinton change his mind. How bout that for a campaign strategy? Klinton wins either way.

I don't know the answers, nor do I have a solid position. Only have questions. I understand the no more aliens position, the reunite father and son position and the don't throw the kid back over the Berlin Wall position. There is more going on here, IMO, and I am watching, listening and thinking. If you know, please say so. Even heard today the devine position - God protected this kid from the sharks, weather, and water for a purpose. Lots of different theories, but something is building. I am almost sure of that.

Doug '97 TJ
Creator of the CBrack
CBrack.com
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I see it this way. The kid needs to be with his dad. Clinton, Gore, Reno and that group are totally without balls or they'd have had the kid on his way weeks ago. The Miami folks who want him to stay are just using him for their own purposes. They've been here thirty years and longer and they STILL haven't gotten over it and learned to appreciate what they have. They need to adapt or go back, one way or the other.

Bone stock rigs: '81 CJ7, '96 ZJ. Moab every summer!
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Doug, I pretty sure those laws keeping Cuban imigrants in America for up to a year are based upon a claim of "policital asylum". That's not the case here, so those rules wouldn't apply.

If you ask me, this is an International Kidnapping Case. The dad wants the kid back with him in Cuba, that's his right. If the family in the US decides otherwise, they are kidnapping the child. End of story. If the US helps the family in America kidnap the kid, then the goverment is a accessory to the crime.

I grew up in Miami, graduated high school there. Let me tell you something about alot of the new breed of Cuban Americans. (First, a disclaimer, I have many, many Cuban American friends, this is NOT an attack or racial slur.) There are two types of Cubans. #1 is the old school guys. The ones that came over on the Mariel Boatlift and fled Cuba because of oppression. These guys are first generation American Naturalized Citizens. And most of them speak English, love America and would gladly go to war for this country to defend it if necessary. #2 are their kids and grandkids. These are the guys (and this is true) that are going around saying "Viva Fidel", "Let's go back to the Motherland", and other such nonsense. They've never been to Cuba, never seen it and have only distant relatives over there. Yet they go around saying how much America sucks and how much they'd like to return to a communist country they know nothing about.

What I don't understand is that the group of people trying to keep Elian in America is Group #1. The real American citizens. They want the kid here in the US because they know first hand what Cuba is like. The odd part is that Group #1 is now the minority in Miami. Group #2 is obviously much larger now and I would imagine most of them would like to accompany Elian back to Cuba. Why don't I see them on the news protesting Group #1? It's very odd.

I heard a report on some religious channel as I was surfing the other day. The religious whacko groups are saying Elian is the "Anti-Christ". What's up with that?

There's a standing rule in the US. If you are picked up in the water, you go back to Cuba. If you make it to dry land, you can stay while you are being processed, ONLY if you are seeking political asylum, but you'll eventually go back there. Elian never made it to land on his own. He was picked up in the Keys. The only reason they brought him back here is because he was a kid on his own. How'd they find his family? I doubt if this kid knew who his family was here, where they lived, etc. etc. Did our government call the Cuban government? How did we locate this kids family and why wasn't he detained like the rest of the "floaters"?

I'm with Doug on this one. Something strange is going on behind the scenes here. Could it be a conflict brewing? What if we keep this kid for another 6 months of so? Fidel Castro is already rallying his people in Havana to protest against the US in this matter. What happens if he gets fired up enough to threaten us? Another missle crisis? Is the US government doing this on purpose to incite a regional conflict to finally get rid of Castro and give communism the killing blow?

I don't know the answers either. But I do know that the people in Miami who have formed the "human chain" will not back down. They WILL NOT break that chain. I've seen this sort of thing first hand down there. There will be riots eventually. Maybe even blood shed if the Marshals come in to extract the child. Would we kill our own citizens over this young boy? The US government may have to face the fact that they can either forceable take over the house or they can leave the kid here. Again, if they leave the kid here, what does Cuba do?

It's all very, very odd.

Carl, Tampa, FL, 74 CJ-5
If a Jeep can't take you there, Think twice about going..
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Speaking of strange, does anyone else find it odd that the protesters who claim to want to keep him here are all chanting in Spanish while waving Cuban flags? I didn't get that at all.

TEX

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yes, I wondered about the flag deal myself. I'm still watching and listening. If it was a simple matter to begin with, it certainly isn't simple now. As far as getting to dry ground for asylum, I think that if the govt picks him up prior to landing one set of rules apply, but if the govt wasn't involved in his rescue, even though he did not actually get here on his own, since the govt didn't rescue him, a private individual did, he comes under the, "he got his feet on dry land rule."
Something else amazing are the totally different stories that are circulating. Have no idea what to believe.
Examples:
1) Lived most of the time with his father in Cuba
2) Father hadn't even seen him in 3 years
3) Mother and father were divorced 2 years before Elien was born
4) Juan may not even be Elien's father
5) I find this one really strange. Juan has not thanked anyone for saving his son and absolutely refuses to meet with U.S. relatives. That doesn't make sense. Does he really feel this way, or was this a condition of his coming to the U.S.
6) Juan's lawyer - another strange one. Of all the attorneys in the world he winds up with Clinton's own private attorney???
7) The flip flops from the attorney general. First she said it should go to family court, and now refuses to go that route.
8) stories of Juan's family members being under house arrest in Cuba
9) the Cuban mob that surrounds Juan and the fact that he is under virtual house arrest here in the U.S.
10) The Council of Churchs or some such name, mostly Methodist, I think, is paying for Juan's/Clinton's lawyer.
11) Another amazing change of character - The Clinton administration hollering about following the "Rule of Law."

It really seems like someone or several someones are going to great effort to keep this thing churning and keep it convoluted. This aspect of it - to me anyway - is more of a cause for concern than the final disposition. It appears that city and county govt in the Miami area are coming down on a side opposite the feds which in itself is cause for concern. It's one thing for a portion of the govt to be at odds with people in the street, but quite another for two portions of govt to be at odds with each other ON THE STREET and not in court or accross a conference table.

One thing is definite, however. This is another perfect example of the Clinton administration being all talk and no DO. Their idea of solving problems is to make rules, laws, suggest, talk, conclude, threaten, accuse, investigate and hold meetings. They then refuse to enforce any conclusions or laws.

Doug '97 TJ
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I was indiferent ont he subject... but now agree with the following commentary.

BreakPoint Commentary #000410 - 4/10/2000

A "Possession of Cuba"? : Why Elián Must Stay by Charles Colson

Since last November, America has torn itself apart over the case of Elián Gonzales, the bright-eyed six-year-old who was found bobbing in the ocean off the Florida coast.

Like many Americans, I've been ambivalent. On the one hand my commitment to family values made me believe that Elián's place was with his dad. But Castro is a ruthless tyrant, and nobody ought to be sent to Cuba.

Last Thursday, my ambivalence ended. I believe Elián should not be turned over to his father, and I believe his father agrees with that.

In last Thursday's Wall Street Journal, we learned that on November 22, Elián's father, Juan Gonzales, called Miami relatives to tell them Elián and his mother were on their way to America. A collect telephone bill proves the call was made. Three days later, fisherman rescued Elián off the Fort Lauderdale coast.

The boy was taken to a hospital, where his Uncle Lazaro confirmed his identity, and he called Elián's father to let him know that his child was safe. A relieved Mr. Gonzales asked his uncle to care for the boy.

At no time did Elián's father demand his return--that is, not until the Cuban government got involved. On November 27, Cuban authorities demanded the child be returned to Cuba. As the Wall Street Journal put it, "Not until that Monday did we hear from the boy's father, who was quoted as having had second thoughts about Elián and now concluded that he had been kidnapped."

Now, I agree with my friend Rep. Steve Largent, and others, who argue that the sovereignty of the family should be respected. I agree: parents, not the state, should decide what's best for children. And I agree with those who say that if the boy had come from, let's say, Caracas, we wouldn't hesitate to send him back.

But that's exactly the point. Elián does NOT come from Caracas. He comes from Cuba, which means his father is not a free agent. With Cuban authorities watching and listening, Mr. Gonzales cannot speak freely. It is Castro who is speaking.

And there isn't an issue of the sovereignty of the family involved in any event: In Cuba, the child belongs to the state.

Even if we didn't have the telephone call from Elián's father, asking Miami relatives to hang onto his son, we have the dramatic testimony of Janet Reno's friend, Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, whom Reno appointed to mediate the negotiations between the boy's grandparents and the Cuban relatives in Miami. Sister Jeanne originally believed the boy should be sent back to Cuba. But she changed her mind after meeting Elián's grandmothers--and their Cuban handlers. She may have seen something very unstable about the grandmothers. Or perhaps she received a signal from them--and realized Elián would be better off in America.

So now, the issue is clear: Does the United States give asylum to this boy, allowing him to stay where he wants to stay, in the country his mother died bringing him to? Or do we hand him back, not to his father, but to Fidel Castro? Remember, Cuban authorities claim that Elián is a possession, not of his father, but of the Cuban government.

And for me, that makes the decision easy. Elián should stay.

Copyright (c) 2000 Prison Fellowship Ministries

"BreakPoint with Chuck Colson" ("BreakPoint") is a daily commentary on news and trends from a Christian perspective. Heard on more than 425 radio stations nationwide, BreakPoint transcripts are also available on the Internet. If you know of others who would enjoy receiving BreakPoint in their E-mail box each day, tell them they can sign up on our Web site at www.breakpoint.org.

Copyright notice: BreakPoint may be copied and re-transmitted by electronic mail.

Jeeper2
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
XJY,
As I watched CNN last night, it was the "from the right" camp that was politicizing the issue. I thought you guys were about "family values", and "the rights of the individual" , and "less government." It would appear that the boy's father has the right to live anywhere he pleases, despite what you, Gloria Estefan, or Andy Garcia thinks. Should the father be held to a different standard than an American?

I am the son of two immigrants, borne and raised in Queens, New York, with the perspective to realize that this country is not the end all & be all of the world.

It would appear to me, a politically neutral observer, that Reno is trying to avoid a showdown (a show of force) in the streets, and to let the families amicably resolve this conundrum, rather than to provoke riot, which would play into the Cuban-American hand, and I think this is wise.


P.S. XYJ, how long did you spend in Cuba, to be able to make such a concise judgement of life there?

Bob Fraser, (with a father who was there, and with Cuban-American relations in FLA.)

 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
"As I watched CNN last night, it was the "from the right" camp that was politicizing the issue. I
thought you guys were about "family values", and "the rights of the individual" , and "less
government."'

As long as the Democrats are in charge, the Republicans will make ridiculous political moves. When the Republicans are in charge, the Democrats will have their chance to attack THEM. Most politicians are just that, politicians - facing right or left. For them, it's not about right or wrong. And that's what's screwed up with our government IMO.

TEX

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Well, Bob Fraser, people who know me on this BBS know I don't respond to ad homen attacks.
Since you're of Cuban decent and, like many Cuban Americans, have relatives living in Cuba; you know as well as I the situation in Cuba. One doesn't need to be a weatherman to tell which way the wind is blowing.

Are you saying that Cuba is a free country???? Where people may say they disagree openly with the Castro government without fear of losing their job, home or being sent to a camp or a farm to harvest sugar cane? I have never visited Cuba. I would love to but not as long as the Castro regime is in power. Why? I refuse to spend my hard currency there so that murderer will have more money by which he oppresses his countrymen. Do you refute the statement that Fidel, Raul and his buddies are murderers? Fidel has the balls to say that capitalism is the same as the Holocaust!!?? How many of his countrymen has he slaughtered? BTW, what happened to Che Guevera, his friend and mentor????

Like I said on the other thread, I do think children belong with their family and primarily with their parents. But if the parents are incapable of taking care if them, shouldn't we allow his other relatives to take care of him? What do you think the real reason is that Juan Miguel doesn't go to his uncle's house to meet with HIS family and settle where Elian should live WITHOUT the Cuban or American Government officials present?????

Speaking of the American Government, it is obvious to me that all that bluster from Reno was a big bluff. The Miami family called it. Clinton said that they were going to have the "Rule of Law". You don't see the two faceness of that statement?????




 
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