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Trail Manners

2.8K views 23 replies 3 participants last post by  **DONOTDELETE**  
#1 ·
I just got home after spending a week camping on the east side of Spider Lake and four-wheeling on the Rubicon. The area is, for the most part, pretty much the same as it was on my last trip twenty-some years ago.

I did see some disturbing things though. For instance, there were several places where the original trail was deliberately blocked by persons unknown who had dislodged size large boulders and winched them into the trail. Disturbing ... Yes! Earth shattering ... No!

Then, on the afternoon of our third day in camp, the earth shattering happened. A group of 4 wheelers passed by the campsite with complete disregard for the concept of "Tread Lightly". These people came blasting through at what I would estimate to be a 15 MPH clip. Not bad for a trail with an average speed of 2 to 4 MPH.

Of course, yours truly yelled at them to slow down which only elicited their cheerful responses of "F*** you, A**hole". On top of that, several people told me to be quiet or I would piss'em off. I was confused to say the least.

It was then that I saw the tailgate of the last 4X4 pickup in the group, a truck that had obviously been rolled a time or two. Big black letters proclaimed "WWW.PIRATE4X4.COM". "What the hell is Pirate 4X4?", I asked. Again, I was told to be quiet because those guys were the Pirates of the Rubicon and were not to be trifled with.

Not understanding what was going on, I grumbled to myself and let the matter pass. The Pirates set up their camp about a hundred meters below us and all was OK ... for a while.

Along about two in the morning we were awakened by a lot of yelling and what sounded like a fight from the direction of the Pirate's camp. Shortly after that a rig that was powered by what sounded like a 6 cylinder V8 running at 4000 RPM attempted to drive through our camp.

I unassed myself and my 13 year old son from our tent at the time everyone else was doing the same. None of us had any intention of becoming Roadkill on the Rubicon. We all looked down toward Pirate camp and saw a bonfire that would make the late New Mexico burn look like a marshmallow roast. Rather vocally, we got the errant 4X4 back on the trail and he headed down to the Pirate camp. By 4AM, everything was quiet again and around 8AM the Pirates took their leave and headed for parts unknown.

But wait, there's more!

Later that morning I left our camp on foot to locate some deadwood for our own fire. My travels took me through the Pirate camp from the night before. That's when I got madder than hell. These guys had made a size large mess and to top it off, they had cut living trees to fuel their bonfire. Their trash was scattered from hell to breakfast and in general their camp looked like the city dump. My group spent several hours of our leisure time cleaning up their crap.

Is there any excuse for this kind of disregard for our public lands? None whatsoever! It's people like the Pirates of the Rubicon that give the off-road community a really bad name. People like this do nothing more than give the eco-nazis ammunition for their fight to keep us in our garages. The last thing we need is a bunch of rogue off-roaders mucking it up for the rest of us.

Later that day I asked a number of off-roaders if they had any knowledge of this group and their abberant behavior. Several of them responded on the condition I wouldn't identify them. I must add that what follows is only hearsay as I didn't witness any of these incidents except what is noted above.

1. The Pirates deliberately roll their rigs so that other members of the group can drive up on them. Makes for interesting trail debris not to mention a hell of an oil slick. (see the picture from their website)

2. Indiscriminate firing of weapons. The area is predominately granite and bullets riccochet. Could someone get hurt?

3. Rude, loud, abusive and threatening behavior toward people who disagree with their attitude and actions. A lot of families travel the Rubicon. Wives and kids don't need this. Hell, no one does.

After I got back to Carson City I fired up my steam powered, water cooled computer and looked up www.pirate4x4.com. Was I ever surprised. According to their website, the Pirates in consort with the USFS single handedly saved the Rubicon from all us bad guys. If what I witnessed last week is any indication of the Pirate's overall actions and attitude then I, for one, want no part of their particular brand of off-roading.

On that website they list a number of corporate and private sponsors. I have serious questions about this also. Do these sponsors have any idea of the actions attributed to the Pirates. If so, I can only assume that these sponsors condone those actions. If not, I would suggest that those sponsors take a second look at this group.

Are all of the Pirates of the Rubicon bad guys? I would hope not. In that case the good guys should weed out the persons responsible for these questionable acts.

Does the off-road community at large need people like this? Not no but HELL NO! We have enough problems fighting off Slick Willy and his merry band of Eco-Nazis without having to defend ourselves from within.

If what I saw was indicative of the behavior of the overall group then I would suggest that we as a community shun these people and anyone remotely like them. I sincerely hope that the Pirates of the Rubicon examine the actions of at least part of their group.

If any readers out there belong to the Pirates of the Rubicon or can offer a reasonable explanation please reply and set the record straight. As things stand now the Pirate's trail manners ain't too popular.

The bottom line is that we don't need renegade or rogue off-roaders making things rough for the rest of us. As I have said before we need to get our butts in gear and our collective acts together or we're sunk. It doesn't matter what we drive or ride. What matters is how we do it.

You all have to make your own decisions and form your own opinions regarding actions such as these. You can castigate me for posting this long-winded message or we can try to cure the problem by getting rid of the bad apples. The choice belongs to all of us.

BTW, overall, the trip was a most excellent adventure.

Copies of this post have been sent to:
Pirates of the Rubicon
California Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs
United Four Wheel Drive Association

Rockcrusher
 
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#2 ·
I am glad you forwarded your message to the Pirate website. Jerks like that don't do the rest of us any favors, and advertzing their website and club while doing crap like you state is really stupid. The best response to guys like that is to move away and not confront them. Guns, booze, yahoos and the wilderness add up to dangerous folks.

If these guys really left the campsite a dump, that kinda puts out the lie about their trail clean ups. Hopefully a Pirate can post a response.

 
#3 ·
Thank you for posting this, Rockcrusher... I'm definitely awaiting a response from the Pirates...

From what you've described they should be shunned from the OHV community and such... We can't afford to even remotely appear to condone that type of reckless and irresponsible behavior as well as the threats...

Again, thank you for posting your experience with them, and definitely let us know if they respond to you...

Tim
ORC Land Use columnist
My June article on ORC

http://www.off-road.com/land
 
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#6 ·
Rockcrusher,
I know that there are some people who ruin it for all of us. I can assure you that the Pirate's are not those people. I am friends with some of the Pirates and know that all of the Pirates are not "Pigs" and would not leave behind a mess like that. What you saw was a person who is a regular on the Pirate website and ordered a sticker for their rig. Just because you see www.pirate4x4.com on a rig DOES NOT mean they are part of the pirates of the rubicon club. Is that all you saw was a URL sticker on it? The way you distinguish a pirate is by the round black sticker with a skull and it says pirates of the rubicon. Usually the sticker is placed right in front of the door on the fender. Also the Pirates have club flags that they stick on their antennas. I hope this clears something up and that you are aware that the person or people doing this damage were not pirates. So next time please be more informed before pointing the finger at other people.

/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gifMiguel
4"sus, 3"body,5.29's,Rear Lock-rite, Marlin case #476 and much more
 
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#7 ·
WOW, I am simply speechless! Not only does one blatent accusation about our club show up on the internet but people actually believe it - APPALLED! First off NO pirates carry guns or weapons of any kind - there is simply not a place for that on the trail. Secondly www.pirate4x4.com and the Pirates of the Rubicon are two totally different things. After running into members of the Pirates (not literally) for many summers and numerous occasions where members helped me either by spotting me or by repairs I began wheeling with them and eventually became the member that I am now. I will not make any accusations about the people that posted negative comments about our club instead I invite you to hit the trail with me and the club. It is tough to break rumors and we work VERY hard to keep a good reputation and keep the trails clean. We are finding that all of our runs now have the word "clean up" after them because of careless individuals. Some of the trails we clean are the Rubicon, Bassie Falls, Jergins, and of course on every run we take we haul out more than we haul in and we are more than willing to help those in need from welding to getting assistance that they need. I would gladly respond to any rational comments. This topic has gotten a lot of exposure on our BBS where you will find many peoples experiences with our club - please do not make such accusations without making sure that they are factual. This does not only apply to us but to anyone. By making such accusations you are only hurting the sport that we all enjoy.

Tread Lightly!
Brandon Miller
POR webslave

Pirates of the Rubicon 4wheel Drive member
United Four Wheel Drive club member
 
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#8 ·
Kinda what I thought from what I've seen of the Pirates, they seem to be concerned, dedicated 4 wheelers. But, if those
guys are in any way associated with the Pirates, them somebody needs to take care of those idiots. Maybe one solution, as
unfortunate as it may be, would be to stop circulating things with the Pirate name on it unless it is to a club member, that includes
website paraphernalia.

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
http://www.off-road.com/land
 
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#9 ·
Well Mr. Stark, you should have my email, so I feel no need to comment my feelings toward you here. I do have one question to ask...

If the person you saw in question had a Central 4wd sticker, or a OFF ROAD. COM sticker, or a 4x4Wire.Com sticker, a Goodyear sticker, or a BOB STARKS 4wd Club sticker, would you have immediately ASSUMED it was someone from that organization, and emailed everyone on the internet as you did (UFWDA, CA4WDA, ORC, etc.) without contacting them to find out if it REALLY was them?!?!? As I mentioned in my email to you, we sell our "www.pirate4x4.com" stickers on the internet to help pay for our trail cleanups, etc. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

People like you are just as big of a problem as the idiots who you encountered.

Lance Clifford
Pirates of the Rubicon Webmaster

 
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#10 ·
First let me introduce myself. My name is Keith and I am not a Pirate of the Rubicon. I am however, affiliated with the website and would like to consider myself a friend of several members of the Pirates. I cannot explain or speak of Bob Starks experience, but I can tell you the experiences I have had with the Pirates. For about 2 years I have been running the Con, and many times I have encountered both Pirate members, as well as disgruntled people telling stories of the Pirates. Every experience I have had with a Pirate member has been positive. They are a very knowledgable, HELPFUL!, and generally good group of guys. Many members are professional people who enjoy off roading as you and I do. Now, for the experiences with other people. I have Pirate4x4.Com stickers on the hood of my Jeep. I am proud to display them, yet over Memorial day I was asked several times if I was a pirate. After explaining no, and how I was related to the website, many people would begin to bag on the pirates organization. The problem I have with this is when I confronted those people and asked for specific examples of problems they have had, no one can ever give me any details...it always boils down to "well I heard from this guy that..." This bad reputation is due to unfounded claims by uninformed people!

The Pirates are a good group of wheelers. They are not trying to hurt the environment, nor do they act maliciously towards others. I encourage everyone available to attend one of their clean-up runs, or just go wheel with the Pirates and see what they are really like.

As for Bob Starks, I am not one to judge the actions of others. I only ask that you do a little more research about a concern you may have prior to involving as many organizations as you have. It was unecessary to cc your mail to as many people, and you have now done severe damage to the reputation of an innocent organization. I hope we can all learn a very valuable lesson from this. For anyone wishing to respond, feel free to e-mail me at hanleighk@jps.net

Keith Strong
 
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#11 ·
I am last years president of the Contra Costa Jeepers located near the Rubicon. We have been a club since 1967. In the years we have run into the Pirates of the Rubicon There has never been a problem with anyone in the Pirate group that we have witnessed. Speaking from my own contacts with the Pirates they are a helpfull, well meaning, group. I have heard folks say that they have had problems with the pirates. When I have asked them what happened they could only relay that they have just heard of bad things. This is the sort of rumors that need to stop.
I am a Professional dad to a three year old with a son on the way soon. I have never met anyone that has truly had a negative experience with the Pirates. They, like my club are the harmless prankster type goofing with fellow members and friends, not with other trail users. This may be where some of the wrong impression tales place. These guys have done more for cleanup actions on the surrounding trail than any other club I can think of.
When I read Bob's letter on the POR website it was obvious to me that he had seen the actions of a non member. It appears that there may have been some confusion still with the person with the sticker. Not the point though.
I understand Bob Stark's feeling's I think we all do It's just unfortunate that others took the blame for the actions of a select few.
Steve Nolan

 
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#12 ·
Wow. This is pretty slanderous of the Pirates. From my experience with them, they have been nothing but friendly, and willing to give a fellow 4wheeler a hand. Example: When I first got my license, my girlfriend and I where 4wheeling in the mountains through some deep snow. Due to my inexperience at the time, lack of better judgement, and trying to show off in front of my girlfriend, I buried my Jeep in a snow bank. I had no winch or shovel, and nobody was around. Lucky for me, a white Toyota with a skull and cross bones sticker on the side was driving down the trail, and saw my stuck Jeep. His name was Mike, and he spent almost TWO hours of his own time helping me get my Jeep unstuck. Several times I offered him money, and he would not except it. If it wasnt for him, I dont know what I would have done. Having met a few more of them, they are more then willing to give a fellow 4wheeler a hand.

As for you Bob Stark, you are obviously a weak individual, and fear confrontations. If you had any sort of ass at all, you would have confronted the person on the trail, sent an email to any of the pirate members about this, or at least you could have posted your truthless message on the www.pirate4x4.com BB service (you OBVIOUSLY know the URL) Hope you dont break or get stuck on the trail when Im around Mr. Stark, because I'll give you the same disrespect and shallow mind that you gave the pirates.
 
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#13 ·
Let me premise by saying I am a www.pirate4x4.com addict. I spend a lot of time on the site. This time has allowed me to get to know the philosophy of the Pirates, as well as the opportunity to get to know some of them personally. The situation described, does not embody Pirate philosophy AT ALL!!!
As Lance had mentioned, every Tom, Dick, and Harry, can order a www.pirate4x4.com sticker. I know that there was hesitation initially in selling these to non-members for just this reason. Since I run one on my windshield, and would like to obtain more in the future, I hope selling to non-members does not stop.
I have found myself defending the Pirates as K_STRONG had mentioned to other wheelers. I ask what they have witnessed the POR doing...The response is ALWAYS, "Well, I have heard" This is CRAP! Hearsay! I must also say that You RockCrusher in going off half cocked, have ONLY added fuel to the fire of these rumors! Now Lance and others have to email all of the people you were kind enough to cc to defend the Pirates. People reading this will remember 2 things from your uninformed post ...1. Pirates and 2.They do not care about the trails. These two things should NEVER be used in the same sentence. I have NOT 1 experience to share that would support your claims Rockcrusher. If you or anyone check out www.pirate4x4.com, I challenge you to find anything to the contrary.
Just recently, there was a call placed on the BB for us(POR regulars on the board) to help clean up the bassi falls trails, which are increasingly used as trash dumps by those not adhering to the tread lightly rules.

Rockcrusher, next time be sure of what you are posting because you can do more damage that you know with posts like this.

Sincerely,

Kevin

massey2jeep(ollllllo)
"How Massssssssssssey is your Lift?"
"Go Big or Go Home"
"MASSEY,The Standard by which all other 4X's are measured!"
Massey®
 
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#14 ·
Given your age I would assume you would refrain from knee-jerk reactions.
But instead you have taken upon yourself to throw gernades at an unconfirmed enemy.

Now, after your damaging mail has made its rounds, are you sure you blamed the right people?

And indeed, since it has been determined by the POR board by a bit of self-policing, that:
NO Pirates were involved.
One BBS member (NOT PIRATE)admits to being in the area and confirms some claims of noise,
BUT denies himself as a perpetrator of the other offences, he claims a third party was involved.

Therefore:
You're eyes are still good, you problably did see a PIRATE4X4 sticker.

But your judgement is going, as you made assumptions and took actions that have in turn further damaged the reputation of an organization that stands for all that is good with our hobby but instead tends to be the scapegoat.

I would ask you and everybody else to think about how they feel about the Pirates.
If indeed they are the Villians that so many seem to think they are,
It escapes me how and why a bunch of vandals, drunks, litterers, and thugs would come to ORGANIZE THEMSELVES into a club that:
Involves themselves with eco-friendly groups.
Publicly organizes trail clean-ups.
Hosts a website.
ETC.

Hells Angels being the exception, People whom behave like you have descibed in your letter are not likey to be involved with a club in general. It is more plausible the person whom had an issue with being scolded by yourself wouldn't be inclined to suject himself to the codes of behavior required by most clubs.

In Conclusion; it may be prudent to offer an apology to the Pirates for your actions, as they have done great damage to the reputaion of a group whom is only guilty of selling stickers that get pasted on idiots rigs.

Christopher Delgado
1986 Toyota 4Runner SR5
 
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#15 ·
Rockcrusher,

Your handle denotes a certain disregard for trails...
Am I to assume that you don't agree with " Tread Lightly " ?
Of course not...
I wouldn't be that ignorant.
Please do the right thing and have the intestinal fortitude to admit that you have made a huge mistake. You jumped to a conclusion that what you saw, on a sticker, somehow made an entire club and BBS a group of irresponsible four-wheelers.

You have the url, (www.pirate4x4.com)now, check it out and set the record straight.

Unless,,, Your an Enviro-Wacko trying to make us all look bad. In which case I guess the jokes on us. (NOT FUNNY)
 
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#16 ·
A number of years ago, I did an article for our club's newsletter simply titled "The Sticker". The article dealt with the responsibility that came with carrying the club's logo on your vehicle 24/7. Perhaps an unfortunate incident such as this will force the Pirates of the Rubicon to stop selling their website decals to individuals outside their club. It sucks, but sometimes it comes down to that. I know how easy it can be to incorrectly associate a person - or even an event - with a group with which they have no affiliation. I can't even begin to count the number of times that I've heard mud racers cuss "those darn Mid-Missouri Off-Roaders" when they really meant Missouri 4wd Mud Marathon Association - or just the opposite. Or, even when they were talking about bad experiences from a NON-sanctioned event, they'd claim it was run by "such & such". In fact, more often than not they were talking about "outlaw" events rather than sanctioned ones. So, if someone can try to link an entire event to the wrong group, you can certainly see how they'd do so with an individual. All that being said, I do have to agree with Lance that this incident should have first been taken directly to POR for verification before taking it elsewhere.

TEX

http://sites.netscape.net/gumboracing
 
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#17 ·
I think rockcrusher did nothing wrong! he was just telling it like he saw/heard it. its not like he cc'd the letter to the sierra club. This isn't the first time i've heard negative things about people with pirate stickers. I was able to come to the conclusion that your stickers are popular with the idiots on the rubicon. there ARE wheelers out there with no respect/ clue. it sucks when you have to clean up after fellow wheelers. I have no doubts that your club is made up of good people, but dont be pissed at rockcrusher because sticker owners are ruining your reputation.


85 4runner, budget build up
 
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#18 ·
once you have made that conclusion you are really hurting the sport, when people try to save trails etc. and get this kind of reputation it is people like you that are contributing to closing those trails...

If anybody had an issue with anything I did I would hope they would let me know about it and everyone deserves the same courtesy - I don't care who these people are, why don't you do something good about it instead of putting a bad name to four wheeling?

 
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#19 ·
POR shows up all over Pirate4x4.com and it is not the same thing?

You don't get drunk and shoot up the forest wearing your NRA hat, you don't trash a campsite sporting offroad club gear and stickers. This fact has been well know for street rodders for years and years. You don't pull a dumb stunt running your club's colors. The whole club gets tarred and feathered when one screws up.

How do you prevent somebody from doing stupid sh!t running your gear? That is something that you guys need to figure out. I'll take your word for it that the guy wasn't a member. I have surfed your website quite a bit and see you at the Johnson Valley RCC, and didn't see anything out of line.

But what is the guy (rockcrusher) to think when a sticker is plastered all over the back of someone causing trouble? What if it was a Ranger that saw what Rockcrusher saw, one that you have been trying to build a trust with? Just food for thought.


 
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#20 ·
4deer, You state that "This isn't the first time i've heard negative things about people with pirate stickers. I was able to come to the conclusion that your stickers are
popular with the idiots on the rubicon."
I have a sticker on my truck and this really pisses me off! I am one of the people constantly cleaning up after assholes. My truck is ugly as all hell and people always
stereotype me, yes I have long hair and an ugly truck. Does that mean I do not tread lightly and am disrespectfull??? Hell NO! My off-road truck is ugly because I choose
not to maintain the body... nothing more. I like to go have fun and not worry about my rocker panels, etc... I still don't have a clue why this makes me a bad person in so
many peoples eyes.?.?.?
I posted on the Pirate BBS that perhaps I was the one involved, you can read that post if your wondering why I would think such things. I'm happy to say that the description of the vehicle does not match my truck ~Off the Hook!~ I'm just very upset at this whole deal, so many close minded individuals who go on nothing more than hearsay, stereotypes
and rumors.


 
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#21 ·
wake up buddy, next time ya see a chevy blazin a trail are you going to call up the local dealer and chew em out? Stereotyping is for the spineless that can't do anything themselves, sorry to be degreading but that is the saddest excuse I have ever heard!

 
#22 ·
Felgin, I think you are missing the point, and letting your emotions run away with your brain...

I think we can all agree that the actions described - regardless of who did them - are not acceptable and should be stopped. No one wants to see stuff torn up, or people harassed, or exposed to possible injury from others.

My main problem is how this concerned citizen went about "telling the world" of these transgressions.

This man showed a lack of respect for everyone involved when he did not first address his concerns to the supposed source of the problem. He did not give them a chance to defend themselves, and show - as they have - that they were not involved in what went on.

The fact is that it was irresponsible for this man to broudcast this message to so many people when it was a RUMOR and he made no effort what-so-ever to check his facts. For goodness sake, he even visited the POR website and saw many things that were contrary to what he saw on the trail, and STILl did not verify his informaiton before shouting it to thw world.

Now, The Pirates are left to try to repair damage to their name by this fool and he gets to walk away without a care in the world.

Felgin, I am disappointed that you would jump head-first into such unsubstantiated drivel ready to chop off the head of the firt Pirate club member you see - you should seriously re-think your stance on this and EDUCATE yourself as to the facts first...

Hey - we all want to stop the activities described - but unfounded slanderous accusations are not the answer... They simple serve to tear apart the group - is that what you want?

 
#23 ·
To Rockcrusher - be a man and apologise

So, you have been shown that you were wrong in your accusations. How about you be a man and sent a letter out to everyone you sent the first one to and apologise for trashing someone who had nothing to do with what you saw?

Are you enough of a man to know when you are wrong? Prove it then...

 
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#24 ·
Felgin...

What he saw has a WWW.PIRATE4x4.COM sticker, not the Pirates of the Rubicon sticker. What if you saw a sticker that said something like www.off-road.com doing something you didnt like, would you blame off-road.com for it, or how about EVERYONE who has a www.off-road.com window sticker. Its too bad that the last thing he saw the www.pirate4x4.com sticker, but that doesnt mean it was a POR member. They probably have thousand of thier web URL stickers world wide. Profits from thier stickers go to special events such as trail clean ups. Its a shame that closed minded people think this way, and fuel the rumor mill. My $.02

Nick