toy front rear on jeep

Actually, the axle & housing is the same for V-6 & 4 cylinder. And actually, no straight-axle Toy was ever equipped with a V-6 from the factory. The difference between V-6 & 4 cylinder is the 3rd member - the gears. And the V-6 3rd member is a direct swap into a solid front or rear end. As to the strength of Toyota axles, they're actually at least as good as Dana 44, if not better. What typically blows with V-8 conversions is the R&P, and switching to the V-6 3rd member greatly reduces this possibility. A stock Toy 3rd member is at LEAST as strong as a Dana 30 & a V-6 3rd member would be far superior. And as far as sneaking over to the Toy page, I wouldn't hesitate to mention exactly what you have in mind. Nobody will get upset & it'll make it easier to get a straight answer if you ask a straight question.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

Hey, no offense taken here. Wasn't sure if you were jokin' or if you just weren't sure how guys would react to that. But, I thought I'd let jared know that his question would be more than welcome on the other board as well as this one. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif.
Later,
TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

To augment TEX's response, the other difference in the V6 and standard Toy diffs is a difference in carrier design - with the V6 getting the nod in strength.

As for the Toyota axle/Dane 30 comparison - the Toy axle blows a Dana 30 out of the water, no comparison as far as I am concerned. I have had both (several CJ's) and I am speaking from experience/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

But, I think the original post was referenceing LC axles, not mini truck axles. The mini truck axles have a centered rear diff, where the LC rear axle has an offset diff. The front on both are on the passenger side (for U.S.)

If you have any more questions ask right here - I think enough of us Toy drivers visit this site to help out.

David
Davids 4x4 Page

Guys,

Forget the hearsay and start taking apart axles and finding out for yourselves. That's what I did. Once you have seen them both disassembled you will be able to better judge for yourselves. I know it was a no brainer for me after I had done some work on both. There's no doubt at all for me that Dana 44s are much stronger than little toy axles.

Ever wonder why there's no articles on swapping Toyota axles into a Jeep anywhere on Off-Road.Com? It's becuase Wagoneer and Scout II axles are cheaper, stronger, and easier to swap into a Jeep.

Want me to list specifics on why Dana 44s and even the AMC 20 are better?

Here's my favorite: Warn tested birfield joints, 260 series U-joints as used in Dana 30s and 297 series U-joints as used in Dana 44 front ends. The results were that a birfield is no stronger than the 260 series U-joint from a Dana 30, but the 297 series U-joints were about 30% stronger. This is why Warn uses 297 series U-joints from a Dana 44 in their birfield eliminator kits. Heck, this was printed in Fourwheeler. Didn't anyone else read this article?

Toyota ring and pinions are also small than either the Dana 44 or AMC 20. Look it up.

Don't forget that Toyota thinks it's OK to make axle housings out of welded together sheetmetal. I like Dana's heavy castings made of cast nodular steel, especially for rock use. Toyota axle tubes are also welded together sheetmetal, where a Dana 44 tube is either 3/8" or 1/2" thick solid steel depending on what vehicle it came from. There's no doubt that Dana 44 housings are much much stronger than Toyota housings. I kind of doubt that a Toyota housing is really even as strong as a Dana 35 rear end housing.

Toyota axles seem to be stronger than they are becuase they are used in light weight trucks with motor that produce very little torque. I'm surprised more people don't notice this. I know my CJ7 weighs about 1000 lbs more than a Toyota 4x4 pickup, and my stock 258 produces about double the torque of a Toyota 4cyl or V-6. A fair comparison would be to compare a 4cyl XJ to a Toyota since both are about the same wieght and make about the same power. No one seems to have much trouble with XJ axles on a 4cyl equipped truck either, do they?

Check out the Jeep section of Off-Road.Com to find some serious axles upgrades that can be done on a resonable budget. I think you will find it will be easier on your budget to swap in some american axles once you account for the cost of adapting to Toyota driveshafts, steering and brakes.

John Nutter
ORC Jeep Staff

Well Nutter, I think you're getting off the subject. Dana 44's weren't even an option in this scenario - nor would they be under anything but custom circumstances. We're talking about improving the strength of the frontend by eliminating the D30 (and I don't care what you perceive to be true or not - a V-6 Toy diffy will outlast any D30 or D35 under almost any circumstances) and the 2-piece AMC 20 rear. I'll grant you the AMC 20 has a nice, sturdy R&P. And maybe YOUR CJ7 weighs more than a Toyota pickup, but stock vs. stock the CJ weighs LESS than a Toy, not 1,000 lbs more. And as far as housing strength, is that really an issue? Is this machine going to be flying through the air & crunching down on a regular basis? I'll say this about the durability of the Toy running gear: My Toy has withstood much abuse from my very warm 408" smallblock & 36" tires, while exhibiting better reliability than my Dana 30's ever did in front of a stock 304 with 31's. And I'm still running 4-cylinder carriers with the worst ratio Toy made - 4.37. I've wasted a couple of sets, but switching to the V-6 gears & carrier will stop that. Nothing I could have done to my Dana 30 would have made it durable enough to rely on - and yeah, I wasted a bunch of those.

Now, having said all that; you do make some valid points about the cost of converting to Toy driveshafts and steering. That should be a concern.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

In reply to:

Forget the hearsay and start taking apart axles and finding out for yourselves. That's what I did. Once you have seen them both disassembled you will be able to better judge for yourselves. I know it was a no brainer for me after I had done some work on both. There's no doubt at all for me that Dana 44s are much stronger than little toy axles.

Click to expand...

No brainer? I agree research is good, but I would hardly say the Dana 44 is that much stronger. But are we talking front axles or rear? I would put a Toyota rear axle against a rear Dana 44 any day. both are 30 spline. BTW, how many rear Dana 44's have you heard of breaking? How many rear Toy axles have you heard of breaking? I guess no one ever breaks front 44 shafts or joints?

In reply to:

Ever wonder why there's no articles on swapping Toyota axles into a Jeep anywhere on Off-Road.Com? It's becuase Wagoneer and Scout II axles are cheaper, stronger, and easier to swap into a Jeep.

Click to expand...

Well, I would more go with the fact that most people have some imaginary "issue" with putting Toy stuff under a Jeep, but that is just my opinion.

In reply to:

Here's my favorite: Warn tested birfield joints, 260 series U-joints as used in Dana 30s and 297 series U-joints as used in Dana 44 front ends. The results were that a birfield is no stronger than the 260 series U-joint from a Dana 30, but the 297 series U-joints were about 30% stronger. This is why Warn uses 297 series U-joints from a Dana 44 in their birfield eliminator kits. Heck, this was printed in Fourwheeler. Didn't anyone else read this article?

Click to expand...

Oh, and I guess that magazines are the end all be all of technical info?
Again, I can easily bet you will see more U joints break than birfields break on a give trail. That has been my experience - do you see more birfields break, or are you just referring to the "birfield myth" everyone seems to toss around?
Warn can show all the tests they want, I tend to see what works in the real world.

In reply to:

Toyota ring and pinions are also small than either the Dana 44 or AMC 20. Look it up.

Click to expand...

Got to give it you you there. Toys have an actual 7.8" diameter ring gear, and the pinion in the 4 cyl diff is not well supported for gears above 4.65 - the 6 cyl diffs are quite a bit stronger (about 20%) over the 4 cyl diffs.
How often do you actually see any of the axles you mentioned break a ring or pinion gear?

In reply to:

Don't forget that Toyota thinks it's OK to make axle housings out of welded together sheetmetal. I like Dana's heavy castings made of cast nodular steel, especially for rock use. Toyota axle tubes are also welded together sheetmetal, where a Dana 44 tube is either 3/8" or 1/2" thick solid steel depending on what vehicle it came from. There's no doubt that Dana 44 housings are much much stronger than Toyota housings. I kind of doubt that a Toyota housing is really even as strong as a Dana 35 rear end housing.

Click to expand...

Not as strong as a 35? Come on, get your Jeep head out of your butt. You can't even put 35's on a D35 with a locker and expect it to last moe than one trail ride. Never mind the fact that a D35 carrier & housing has so much slop most lockrights die a horrible death in a short time there.
As to the "sheet metal" housings on Toyotas - when was the last time you saw someone bend or break one? Launching your truck doesn't count - you would kill a Dana 44 that way too.

In reply to:

Toyota axles seem to be stronger than they are becuase they are used in light weight trucks with motor that produce very little torque. I'm surprised more people don't notice this. I know my CJ7 weighs about 1000 lbs more than a Toyota 4x4 pickup, and my stock 258 produces about double the torque of a Toyota 4cyl or V-6. A fair comparison would be to compare a 4cyl XJ to a Toyota since both are about the same wieght and make about the same power. No one seems to have much trouble with XJ axles on a 4cyl equipped truck either, do they?[/qoute]

I guess you get to ignore the fact that people have been swapping in 350's into Toys since they first rolled into the US? And the fact that Toyota's stared the crawler craze, easily handing the multiplied torque of gear ratios in exess of 100:1?

And just how much does your Jeep weigh? My toy comes in at over 3500 lbs, just wondering...

Check out the Jeep section of Off-Road.Com to find some serious axles upgrades that can be done on a resonable budget. I think you will find it will be easier on your budget to swap in some american axles once you account for the cost of adapting to Toyota driveshafts, steering and brakes.

Click to expand...

Can't argue there- it may be cheaper for his application. My point is he shouldn't ignore something that just plain works. Sure Toy drivetranes have some downsides - so does every other axle out there.

Just keep in mind, The TTC was won this year by a JEEP with a Toy rear axle under it, and a Toy with TOYOTA axles came in second in the latest rock crawling championships. I guess they are weak though. right?/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

David
Davids 4x4 Page

Click to expand...

I just took a look at DRM and Tex's info, both Toyota drivers. I do appreciate your honesty guys. You are both defintiley a cut above the type of baiter who would not give his real info. Things must be pretty boring in the Toyota area for you to be here in the Jeep section.

I fourwheel with the local Toyota club a lot (Mn Toyx4s, www.off-road.com/~mntoyx4 -- check out their trail reports page, it's one of the best), and I've got a lot of friends in that club - some of whom I help work on their trucks. I've seen lots of Toy axles break, particularly in the birfield area. I've seen far more birfields break than Dana 30 U-joints, but my personal experience is pretty much in line with Warn's findings - I think they are about the same strength. I think the reason I see less dana 30 breakage is because I see a lot more Toyotas with front lockers and 35" tires than I see Jeeps with 35s and a front locker on stock axles. Most Jeep guys upgrade when they go to a front locker and anything bigger than a 33" tire.

IMHO Warn is by far the most reputable manufactuer of 4x4 parts, calling their data into question is kind of silly. No one else has ever devised the proper equipment or done a scientific study of this kind before. Their Data is much more conclusive than anyone's personal feelings. If Warn says that a Toy birfield is only as strong as a 260 Ujoint, you had better be believe they can prove it - or Toyota would have already sued them. The Toy ring gear is only .3" bigger than a Dana 30 ring gear, and the Toy 3rd member is not as rigid as the Dana center section, most likley making this front end issue a wash.

A couple of other comments on the practicality of this swap: I kind of doubt that the Toy frame rails are 28" on center, which means that a Toy axle would probably have to be narrowed or the springs would have to be outboarded. It would be a lot easier to do a Dana 44 in this respect. I also wouldn't make the backwards step from an open knuckle Dana 30 to a closed knuckle Toy front end. The turning radius is not as good on the Toy front ends and they tend to leak in more water, both due to the closed knuckle design. I won't even go into how expensive it is to work on Toy brakes, but rebuilt calipers or wheel cylinders for a Jeep are usually around $15 to $20.

How much does my Jeep weigh? About 4500lbs. T-18, Dana 20, Dana 44s front and rear, 258, heavy bumpers, winch, full cage, on board air, all of this adds up. CJ7s start at 3500 lbs when they have the lighter stock compnenets.

Toyota axles work very well in Toyota trucks, but they aren't the best choice for a Jeep. Not even if they are free. If they were I'd have them in my Jeep. I had access to many sets of Toy axles with 4.10 gears for free or nearly so when I was doing my buildup, but I passed on them for many good reasons.

The more knowledgable Toy owners have been e-mailing me with questions about installing Dana 44 front ends from Wagoneers. Peer pressure from other toyota owners seems to prevent them from making this upgrade, and I think this whole thread is somehow turned into backlash from that.

This is going to be my last post on this thread. I'm not going to waste my time debating this any further.

John Nutter

ORC JEEP staff

DRM pointed out most of what I wanted to say but there are a few things left to consider. You can't argue that the Dana 44 is cheaper and easier to swap, but it's not necessarily stronger.

As for Warn's little test, have you contacted them about it? Someone mentioned that Toyota would sue Warn if they were wrong about birfs strength vs. the 260 joint. Do you really thing Toyota keeps up with what Warn's doing? I'm fairly certain they don't know there was ever a comparison. Warn's own literature states that the birfield eliminator is 33% stronger than the stock birfields in the TOYOTA LANDCRUISER, not the pickup and that is with the 297 joint. Everyone will tell you the Toyota pickup birf is much stronger than the Landcruiser one. So, are the toy p/up birfs just as strong as the 297 joint? I don't know but I'll bet they're close.

DRM already posted about when was the last time you saw a Toyota housing bent as well as giving you that the ring gear is slightly smaller. As for the pinion diameter, switch to V6 carriers which have a 25% bigger pinion diameter and your problem is solved. The axle shaft diameter and spline count for Toys are the same as for D44s. Both are 1.31" diam. and have the same spline count. As for your big torque figure, I'm running a 206:1 crawl ratio. I've not bent, broken or damaged my axle housing or axles or birfields. The axle will hold up just fine.

Having said all that, swapping Toyota axles into a Jeep isn't that great of an idea for cost and adaption reasons, not due to your perceived weakness of the Toyota axle. Your real weakness is that you can't seem to realize that it's not what you buy, it's what you build.
Sean

Hahahaha this is funny.... The SAME debate with some of the SAME people went on, on our bulletin board awhile back. I will give my 2cents worth.

Toy axles mostly front birfields, but rears as well, break ALL DAY LONG on the Rubicon, or any other West coast trails. That's not a "myth" it's FACT. Go up any weekend, and you will surely find a few busted Toyota's with busted birfields (or J arms). Anyone who says they break them because they can't drive is foolish. Toy ring and pinions break easily too. I have broken one in my DRIVEWAY in my 4Runner. Go figure. Add the fact that 99.9% of all Toyota axles are behind worn out 4 BANGERS, with a whopping 75 horsepower, and it's amazing how many DO break! Take your TYPICAL Jeep on the trail.... A minimum of a 258 torque monster, or usually a V8. Not only is that more WEIGHT, but it's also much MUCH MUCH more TORQUE applied to the axles. Take a healthy small block with 300lb of torque, mutiply that by the tranny, tcase, and diffs, and you are putting an ENORMOUS load to those axles. Toy axles simply don't get as much abuse in that respect!

So what am I saying? Im just saying that die hard Toy clowns who say that Toy axles are even remotely as good as a 44 are plain wrong. Just about every person I know here that rock crawls their Toy is tired of breaking birfields, and has or is either in the process of upgrading to a 44. I have a Land Cruiser that had a stock LC front end in it. I broke enough birfields in the damn thing to pay for a new 44 from Dynatrac! Of course I swapped in a 44 3 years ago, and have been a happy camper ever since. Only 3 broken U-Joints in 3 years. Not bad considering the abuse and frequency I wheel.

Lance Clifford
[email protected]
http://www.pirate4x4.com

Lance, my Toy axles get 408 cubic inches of abuse & I have exactly two driving styles. All gas or all brake. Ease up on the "clown" talk. We're all supposed to be in this together.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

Re-read the original post Lance. No mention of how the vehicle would be used. If we're talking birfields, yeah apples & oranges. If we're talking R&P and axles, wrong. Last time I looked, the 39.5" Swampers I see on Jeeps are exactly the same as the ones I see on Toys. Oh yeah, Jeep or Toy, they're all running Chevy V-8's - apples & apples. BTW, just so you know, I've locked hubs in a NON-mud environment in Missouri, Arkansas, Colorado, and Wyoming. And aside from my current Toy, I've wheeled with 2 different CJ5's and 2 different GMC's. Nobody around here breaks Toy AXLES. Ring & pinions, yes. But, so far I haven't found anyone with a V-6 carrier that has done in a R&P. Believe me, I like Dana components (but NOT 30's or 35's). And the 44 is a good front end. But, the AXLE is not any tougher than the AXLE in a Toy front end. Make sure you have your terminology straight when you jump into a thread to insult someone. BTW, I HAVE seen 44 front axles go bye bye.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

Im not sure why you say I insulted you (unless you consider yourself a hard-core Toyota clown that thinks Toyotas are superior to everything?), but if that's what you'd like to think, so be it.

I am talking all around running gear here... With a D44 and Toyota truck, the R&P's are not comparable, Housings are DEFINTELY not comparable, but axle shafts are comparable. Birfields are about the same strength as a D30 Ujoint. Im not speculating here, I am speaking from years of wheeling with all of the different setups, and observing what holds up, and what doesn't. Toy housings bend, R&P's croak, birfields shatter, and Toyota axle SHAFTS DO BREAK. I too have seen 44 axles break. Nothing's indestructable! I have seen just about EVERYTHING break, for that matter. Mud is very forgiving.... Tire slippage is a stress reliever on weak components. But take that weak component, bind it up on some dry VW sized boulders on X-Rated, and kiss it goodbye.

This is my last comment....

Later,
Lance Clifford
[email protected]
http://www.pirate4x4.com