From what I've read in the past ESPO springs have a tendency to go flat pretty quick. Can anyone correct me on that?

Adam G. Fisher
Boston, MA.

'72 Jeep Commando

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/commando/

"Good, Bad, I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash

 

Come on MadJohn we are waiting for your response.........../wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif ESPO's

Every
Spring
Piece
Of
S*%#

Just go SOA all over, 2" arch on everything ALCAN. THe 5" alcans ride really nice for a 5" lift spring, but the SOA is going to be soft, so you need either 5" springs all round or one or the other. The people doping the SOA rear and SUA front have only 2-3" lift springs up front that are a lot softer than a 5" spring. I still have to put the body back on my Jeepster to see what it looks like, but a SOA with 2 added leaves in rear and a SOA front with 2" lift looks pretty promising , I will see when i get the body on and can see what sheetmetal is going to need to be whacked or if I need a 2" body lift too. I think you would be so much happier with an SOA up front, flex flex flex. Talk to MadJohn if you are concerned with handling, considering that he drove his rig to the Raid from Atlanta, I would say that it can't be all that bad! /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

John
70 Jeepster with "Hurc package"
225 V-6 with HEI, SM465, D18, D44's, SOA on custom antiwrap springs, 36's
48 flattie 225 V-6, T14, D20, D27/D44 33's.
98 Tacoma Extended Cab V6

 

I mentioned possibly a 2" lift in the rear on top of the SOA and the guy at Alcan told me that I ought to go with stock springs on the SOA and a 5" spring up front. I have a lot of weight in the front with the winch and a Jeep full of family too, so I don't know...should I listen to Hurc or the Alcan guy? Hmmm... /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif

Joel F.
Marquette, Michigan
Project No-Bucks
http://home.off-road.com/~nobucks/
'68 Jeepster Commando
225 V6/SM420/NP205/Dana44's

'79 Scout Traveler

 

No offense Hurc, but Alcan did right by me and a friend that put some on his CJ. I vote Alcan

PROUD! member of the EASTERN CHAPTER!

 

Hurc,

Which springs do you have on your Jeepster? ALCAN or ESPO?

/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif It's NOT a Jeep thing....It's a JEEPSTER thing........Understand?
Lee - 1970 Jeepster Commando

 

I did not say ALCAN had a bad idea, I just think a total SOA would be better overall than a combo deal. I am shure every alcan employee drives a Jeepster Joel, so I bet they would know best. As far as a winch up front you are looking at 100 pounds or so. As far as your family goes are they sitting on the hood? If not thier wieght is on the back springs and chances are they will be a lot heavier than any winch with thier gear and such, so in that case you sould not have an SOA on the back either.

Me have ESPO springs? /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Never! Yikes. I am getting 2" alcans for my front springs and my rears all ready have 2 leaves added that almost bring it up tot he front hight, with a winch it will settle even. If you are that concerned about a winch and such being so heavy you should already have rear wranger spring packs for your front, they would solve your worries. Alcan wants to sell you springs, if you go all SOA they get no money, if I worked for them I would suggest you stay SUA and get 6" lift springs. Reason being? I hope you can figure that one out.

John
70 Jeepster with "Hurc package"
225 V-6 with HEI, SM465, D18, D44's, SOA on custom antiwrap springs, 36's
48 flattie 225 V-6, T14, D20, D27/D44 33's.
98 Tacoma Extended Cab V6

 

In reply to:

As far as your family goes are they sitting on the hood? If not their wieght is on the back springs and chances are they will be a lot heavier than any winch with thier gear and such, so in that case you sould not have an SOA on the back either.

Remember John, i before e, except after c, and when sounding like "a" as in neighbor and weigh.

Then why do my springs in the front bottom out against the bumpstops when I hit a pothole while the family is in the truck, but when I'm in it by myself, the springs are fine? Hmmm?

The winch lowered the front end about an inch to an inch-and-a-half.

I'm not worried about the weight with the new springs in front. I am saying that, with an SOA in back raising the rear end 5" or so, and the added weight in front, that I need to go 5" to match the rear end.

If I worked for Alcan I would suggest that I get Alcan's all the way around. If I went your route, I'd still have to buy new springs (from Alcan) and I'd also have to go to all of the trouble of grinding and fitting the passenger side spring pad.

It seems that Alcan has quite a bit of experience building Jeepster springs. I'll listen to your advice to a point, and yes, they are trying to sell springs, but, in addition, they are experts. That would be the reason for that detailed form they have you fill out about your vehicle, so they can give you the best recommendation regarding your suspension.

Joel F.
Marquette, Michigan
Project No-Bucks
http://home.off-road.com/~nobucks/
'68 Jeepster Commando
225 V6/SM420/NP205/Dana44's

'79 Scout Traveler

 

What if you have in the back of your mind that someday you will go v8? I'm redoing the suspension right now, and am debating whether to go lift-springs, or SOA. If I go v8 someday won't I need some beefy springs? Now the question is, SUA vs. SOA or lift springs. What about going to 2" springs in the front? Just want to pick all your brains, I hesitate with SOA because of the stability issue. Or does that go away with super shocks and stiff springs? too many questions. sorry, just that I can't figure this one out.

 

Hurc,

Since you don't own either type of spring (ESPO or ALCAN) your really not qualified to speak on which one is good or bad. I think we have enough people on this board that can relate their own experience (ALCAN vs ESPO) and then people can make up their own mind. You really can't say that something is "S*&^" unless you've had personal experience with that product. The fact is you DON'T REALLY KNOW.

I decided on the ESPO's because they had the product that I wanted and at a fair price. I chose the 6 leaf 2" over and they seem fine to me. After reading up on both types of springs, I decided that the ALCANS seemed better suited for ~4" lift + SUA and very heavy off road use. I didn't want to completely ruin the ride on my Jeepster and only wanted a slight lift, and then if I ever decide to go SOA they will be perfect. The ESPO springs are very well made and I'm sure that they will hold up for years to come.

/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif It's NOT a Jeep thing....It's a JEEPSTER thing........Understand?
Lee - 1970 Jeepster Commando

 

Stability is an important issue. Stock the Jeepster isn't very stable, it's narrow (track) compared to it's height already.
Very few cars can tip over just making a right or left turn in the street, the Jeepster can do it easy.

Just to remain as stable as it is stock, each inch raised up should be accompanied by an inch outwards on each side - that's the outer tire contact point - not the tire's bulge. So in other words, if you went up 2", the outer contact edge of the tire should be 2" wider on each side - just to stay the same!
(Picture a triangle from the outer tire edges to the center of gravity in the middle.

Now, let's go from stock 27" dia tires to 35's, that's 8" dia difference, or 4" higher. Now add 2" to the springs and 2" to the body, you are now 8" higher than stock. Soooo - just to remain as stable as it was stock, you have to go 8" wider on the contact area - on each side - or a total track of 16" wider!
To get that would require much wider rims. Stock they were 5", so add 8" to that = 13" wide with tires to match. (you can't just go offset out, it really screws up the steering geometry.)

Even if the springs didn't flex at all, the suspension was totally solid, it would tip over much easier unless the track was wider proportionately. Just laws of physics.

Then, SOA's rarely if ever retain the Panhard rod, so it loses even more stability.

Super tall may impress high school kids (wow cool man,) or impress folks when cruising Hollywood Blvd (pretend Bigfoot,) and it is helpful when climbing over an obstacle, but isn't very practical off-road where uphills, downhills, and especially sidehills are encountered.

Uphills most of the weight transfers to the rear wheels, the higher the more it transfers, so the front doesn't do much pulling - result - you don't make the hill.

Downhills the weight transfers to the front wheels, leaving the rear wheels to not help much with braking - result - the rear wants to go first, swapping ends.

Even in the street in a panic stop the weight transfer causes the rear end to come around, once it's crossed up about 90 degrees, it flips over.

Sidehills the CG is too high - result ------ well, get a good cage and good belts.

I know some folks will argue, but the laws of physics still prevail.

As far as climbing over rocks is concerned, a good skid plate really helps.

Besides, in some "hoods", the high "cool" look gets laughed at, it's the lowered "peachy keen" look that gets them.


98% is Understanding it
"Don't Fix Unless Broke"

 

Does anyone else have experience with the ESPO springs,good or bad?

Lee, do the 2" arched ESPO's retain the stock flex? Or are they stiffer?

I'm almost afraid to admit my ultimate goal, which is to fit 35" tires with as little lift as possible, for exactly the center of gravity reasons Rich is talking about (my axles are wider). I've been on the top of some spots where I thought for sure I was going to go over, and I hate that feeling. Low center of gravity = good.

If I could trim my rear fenders without it looking like a hack job, I'd just do add-a-leaves and bump stops and be done with it.

What I'll probably end up doing is add-a-leaves rear, 2" lift springs in the front, and 33" tires. That, with a doubler, and skid plates ought to take me over must of the stuff I'd tackle.

Joel F.
Marquette, Michigan
Project No-Bucks
http://home.off-road.com/~nobucks/
'68 Jeepster Commando
225 V6/SM420/NP205/Dana44's

'79 Scout Traveler

 

Seems to me that Greg Beery has one of the nicest functional Jeepsters I saw at last year's raid. If memory serves me, he had stock Wagoneer axles, Wagoneer springs mounted soa and 35" BFG AT's. I don't recall any body lift, correct me anyone, if I'm in err. This really made me think that my long thought out plans for my rig weren't quite right. At 3" lift Benz springs, no body lift and 33" tires, I still don't have enough up travel for the wheels. I should've gone soa, but will try to add another 1 1/2-2" lift by re-arching the new springs I already have. Time will tell, but to those that wish to run 33" or larger, I would advise to get wider axles, like the stock Waggie axles Greg has, go soa and be done with it. Just my 2 cents.

Tim
'66 Jeepster Commando w/Buick 252/4.1L V-6
'70 Wagoneer w/Buick 350 V-8
'76 Wagoneer w/AMC 401 V-8 (sold)

 

I put Espo springs all around my 73.Stock height spring with a 2" body lift.I did make new shackles front and rear with 3/4" more length bolt to bolt.The reason I did this was when I measured the arch length of the spring and compared it with the length between the hangers, if the spring was flattened out,the spring length was 1/4" longer than distance from the rear hanger centerline to the most extended point of the shackle.Which means in a hard bottomout situation if the bushings didn`t distort to make up the 1/4", something may break.Now if I have a bottomout situation,the shackle should never see 90 degrees from perpendicular.This may be the reason for the inheirent frame cracking problems around the rear hanger.
back to Espo spings-Granted, I have not driven but a few miles on my new springs,but am happy with what I have.Rosser listed commando springs last time I looked,but I do not know who manufactors them.Have a set of 32-11.5 w/8"rims now.Wish I had gone widetrack to begin with.
I suppose this project is like a spouse-Try to change it for the better, but it`s till death do us part.(or a good offer!)

Drayson

 

No bucks,

Hard to say if they are more "flexy" than stock. I haven't measured them, but I would guess that a multi-leaf pack by nature is stiffer than a mono leaf. I did notice that the ESPO's "drooped" further than the springs I had on before (~2"). I was running a homemade pack - I took the rear springs from a Wrangler and added them to the old mono leaf. This held up pretty well, but after I installed a back rack and put my hard top on, the Jeepster was sagging in the rear again - so time for new springs.

/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif It's NOT a Jeep thing....It's a JEEPSTER thing........Understand?
Lee - 1970 Jeepster Commando

 

Lee, considering I am on an off road racing team that goes through 2-3 pairs of national springs every race season, I think I would know what I good spring is when I look at it Lee. I have seen 2 sets of ESPO springs, both looked of poor quality to me. Then I got to see the poor quality in action when I saw MadJohn's rig. His were only a month old and had already started to sag, now he has Alcan springs. I would say that of all the springs I have seen Alcans seem the best quality for the money, otherwise National makes a great spring, and my favorite springs are made by a company called Deaver spring, but they are pretty spendy. When I hear Lee is replacing his springs again in 1-2 years make shure to remember that, alright? I will let you find out for your self, you seem to be such a spring expert and can say so much about them. THe reason you think they are good springs is because you have never seen a quality set of springs. Greg Berry's Jeepster is very nice, Tom knows a nice Jeepster when he sees one. Mine is being buit bery close to the same besides the drivetrain choices. He had a spring pack that was a mix of different leaves from chevy and jeepster springs as I recall. That is how I made my rear packs, but with only Jeepster springs. If you noticed he had an extra main leaf that gives the pack lots more support. Alcan does truck and car springs, they are not a bunch of fourwheelers or racers who use springs off road and beat the heck out of them. Their suggestions are for thier springs assuming you will be driving down a smooth paved road the whole spring's life. Notice if you ask them to flip the centering pins or something like that they would have no clue why, and might not even do it. They make a good spring that will not snap in half while wheeling, but it is not an excellent spring. If you want a spring you can really abuse you buy national springs. My pinion.

John
70 Jeepster with "Hurc package"
225 V-6 with HEI, SM465, D18, D44's, SOA on custom antiwrap springs, 36's
48 flattie 225 V-6, T14, D20, D27/D44 33's.
98 Tacoma Extended Cab V6

 

Well I must say I agree with you on the National Springs. I called them and said I wanted new springs for my Jeepster. They told me to take it to the dump or a weighing station and have the car weighed. Then weigh the car when only the front half was on the scale, then the rear half. (loaded of coarse). They made the springs exactly how I wanted them, with the intended lift. As far as I can tell they havn't sagged a bit. I had these springs almost 9 years, they outlasted my last Jeepster and are on my current one now. I had actually jumped the old Jeepster many times in Baja, sometimes on purpose. I never had one fail. Back then I think I paid about 5-6 hundred for them, including shipping. I now have gone to wide track axles, dual ARB's, front shackle reversal, high clearance u bolts, but have retained the National Springs. I decided to buy quality for the Jeepster since I don't plan on getting rid of it. I did retain the SUA to try to keep the center of gravity down. My local 4x shop also trys to keep people who really want to wheel from going SOA. But yer gonna flip it sometimes either way you go, cause you'll try to go past it's limits eventually.

Tom
69 Jeepster
89 Suburban 4wd
00 Expedition 4wd