[2450]

so far today i got through the first 2 steps of tracking down my distributor/timing/starting problem...based on my earlier observation that the rotor would spin when I tried turning the engine with the starter, my current assumption (which will no doubt come back to haunt me) is that the starter is operating properly, as the only way to get to the distributor from the starter is by turning the flywheel.

1. the distributor is solid when installed - the rotor won't move, even when it's in the "stalled position" between #4 and #1 towers (with the exception of a small bit of play for the advance springs)
1a. removal and inspection of the distributor shows the gear is solidly in place, the retaining/shear pin is intact, and the distributor shaft spins freely…
2. the cam gear does not spin when turning the engine over by the crankshaft - from what I can see looking down the distributor hole in the block, the teeth on it appear fine…
3. the rad, fan, shroud, alternator, belts, and front half of the vibration damper are removed…I picked up the damper through our national auto/household department store loan-a-tool program this evening, and will be pulling the damper and timing cover tomorrow morning…

on the up side, my mileage should increase after this due to the loss of weight from all the grime, sludge and grit I’ve cleaned off of the outside of my engine…

as to the terminology, rrich…by “spinning but won’t turn over”, what I was trying to describe (albeit not very well) was the sound; I heard a constant whir or whiz, like something spinning quickly, but I did not hear the RRRR-RRRR-RRRR (or whatever the sound is) you normally hear when the engine is starting properly…every time I was trying it with the key, I couldn’t see if the fan was turning…the one time my wife did it, I was looking at the distributor to see if it would spin, and it didn’t even occur to me to watch the fan (lesson learned), though I would think that if the rotor spun, the crank was turning: starter turns the flywheel which is attached to the crankshaft, which is attached to the camshaft via the timing chain…

and as for possible damage to the valves, can I see this if I remove the valve cover? I’ve been looking for a reason to take it off, clean up underneath it and redo the PO’s seal (they seem to have been students of The More The Merrier School of Silicone Application)...if it won't help me here though, i may leave it for another day...

 

[959]

sounds like a good bit of work with how cold it is up there. good job. keep plucking.

and it sounds like the timing chain.


EDIT: the only way I know to check the valves is with a compresion test. but, you would have to wait until you fixed the chain.

 

[RRich]

"2. the cam gear does not spin when turning the engine over by the crankshaft -"

BINGO!

The cam, and cam gear, HAS to turn IF the chain's intact.
Sounds like it isn't.

The other things I suggested weren't all that likely, but since they were easy it makes sense to start there.
You'll see what happened once you get the timing chain cover off.
Get the new chain and gears on and lined up correctly, then do a compression test to see if that's all that happened, no other damage occurred.

As far as the valve cover removal is concerned - you'll probably be in there anyway after the compression test, but I'd leave it till then.

 

[2450]

carnage...

i haven't yet removed the chain and sprockets, as Mr Haynes says to line up the timing marks before removing the chain-sprocket assembly as a whole...well, i can't line up the timing marks, unless i turn the crankshaft first, then turn the camshaft (or the other way around)...it seems as if the chain has jumped several teeth, but i can't tell how many (not that there's many left to count anyway)...so, can i turn them individually to line up the marks, then remove the assembly, and will this put the internal components back in their proper place?

 

[2450]

cam sprocket...the whitish/silver teeth are metal...there was a plastic line of teeth on the very outside of the cam...

as for the timing mark, i'm guessing it's the small arrow at about the 10 o'clock position? (you can see the oil-stained plastic teeth here too)

 

[2450]

pile of teeth in the front of the oil pan...and me without dental coverage!

 

[LEVE]

1. Dan, good job,
2. You've sure found the problem.
3. You should be able to get the new gears and chain,
4. On without a problem.
5. Remember our friend Sierra Jeep,
6. Well, take a look here:

7. You should have no problem getting it back together.

 

[GeeAea]

In reply to:

can I see this if I remove the valve cover?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe ...but you can check this before you have the thing back together if you can adapt your compression gauge fitting to a compressed air source and just loosen the rocker arms. The bent valves will have air puking out the intake or the exhaust (maybe both) for each cylinder.

 

[Jim_Lou]

Since we've never gotten a definitive answer as to whether this engine can crash valves, it might be a good idea to remove the valve cover and loosen the rocker arm shaft bolts first. But if pistons and valves can meet I suspect you've already done about as much damage to the valves as you can.

Once that's done you can just take everything off and toss it without regard for which way anything is aligned. Put the new crank sprocket on and turn the crank until the timing mark is pointing straight at the center of the camshaft.

Then put the cam sprocket on and turn the cam until the mark is straight at the crank or exactly away from the crank - doesn't matter which.

Once you have the marks aligned, remove both sprockets, put the chain on them and then put them back on.

 

[2450]

gotta love the winters in northern ontario...it's -15C/5F outside today, and that's about how it's going to be all week...so much for the nice weather to work on this...with me back to work tomorrow, this is going to turn into a very slow evening sport...i'll post back with progress/questions as my fingers thaw...

 

[RRich]

I guess Jim we'll know if it is an interference engine. But we may have to wait till spring to find out --- that's cold!
I start to shiver when it gets below 85.

 

[Jim_Lou]

Rich, your old age is starting to show - I'm good for all the way down into the upper 60s.

 

[1446]

that picture is IDENTICAL to my timing chain/gear last year.... funny how it wears on one side like that. As per reccomendations by a few, I left the oil slinger off when reassembled. Why is that? Just curious.

 

[RRich]

They usually do look like that.
It's really an aluminum gear with narrow teeth, then it's got the nylon cast over the teeth. One spot always seems to wear a little more than the rest. Once it gets a little slop it doesn't take long to go away.
The idea is the nylon gears are quieter - but the difference doesn't seem to be much quieter.

Take the extra effort to replace the nylon gears with steel gears - they last much longer. The double rollers are better yet.

I'm not so sure leaving an oil slinger off is a good idea - the slinger's there for a reason.

When re-assembling - coat the chain and gears liberally with assembly lube. It takes a few minutes for oil to get down front when you first start it - by then the new chain set gets equivelent of 50,000 miles wear on it if you don't grease it up good.

Old - 57 - my temp problem mostly is associated with the fact I only have effectively about 1/2 a heart left. I don't see how anybody can live in a place that gets colder than my freezer.

He He - I'm beginning to understand what an employee always said about getting old: "It takes me all night to do what I used to do all night."

 

[2450]

Jim/Rich (and anyone else interested)...

according to Roger The Mechanic at my friendly neighbourhood Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep Dealer, he didn't seem to think that the 258 was an interference engine...hooray for me (if he's right)...i guess that's my mulligan for the year...

the replacement set of gears i got is indeed steel (or cast iron?) through and through - all one piece, cast parts with no nylon or plastic to be found...they look a little more robust than the set i just mangled...

looks like the next break in the cold weather we've got here will be on sunday...just as all the ground-in grease will be wearing off from under my fingernails...

 

[RRich]

That's great news on the non-intereference, hopefully it's right.

There's a big advantage to getting old - Alzheimer's.

You can hide your own Easter eggs!

 

[2450]

Re: starting/distributor/timing update *UPDATE*

success!

my super at the building i live took pity on me and let me put the heep in the garage attached to the office...took me all day yesterday, but i got it all done...

compression test results (dry only)

1 - 112
2 - 90
3 - 120
4 - 80
5 - 100
6 - 100

it was making some scary squeaking noises when i did this (hence no wet test), which i think was because the oil had dripped all the way back down over the last month...i'm not sure what to make of these numbers, since the compression has always been kind of low on this engine, but the last few times i did the test, i didn't have the throttle or choke blocked, and was only removing 1 plug at a time...the prior numbers were higher, but not by a lot - 100-130 range, which i now attribute to the conditions i did the test under before...i'll try it again and see what i get now that i've got some oil worked back up through the engine...

but, so far, so good...it made it down the road and back a few times already...

to everyone! i don't think i would have been able to get through the whole job without the help i got here, and from Tod (at SierraJeep.com)...you guys are amazing...

 

[Dirt Dog]

Re: starting/distributor/timing update *UPDATE*

Great news.

(it's alive........it's alive)

Good feeling ain't it?

 

[LEVE]

Re: starting/distributor/timing update *UPDATE*

1. Good, another Jeep saved from the scrap pile!
2. Dan so others may have an idea of the scope of the project,
3. Can you post:
[*]costs, [*]time to do the install, and [*]part numbers.

 

[RRich]

Re: starting/distributor/timing update *UPDATE*

A compression test that's not done hot, run recently (so oil's up and junk's out,) all plugs out, with the throttle blocked open so it can breathe isn't real valid. But it does give an indication.
The 80 will most likely come right up once it's run a bit.

I have one with the head so warped it shows only 5 pounds - running at 3000 RPM! Normally it's done at cranking speed. At cranking it showed 0, so just for fun I started it! Fortunately it not an engine I care about.