I'm getting a yellowish build up on my plugs that according to the book indicates a sudden rise in combustion chamber temps which cause the normal deposits to create a conductive coating on the plugs that will cause misfires at higher RPM's. The book recommends to use a colder range plug. I'm already using a one range colder plug than stock. Will ignition timing cause this to happen if it is not set correctly ?
spark plug question
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Forgot to mention, I just replaced the timing belt and checked valve clearances. Plugs were fine prio to doing any of this work. Also pulled distributor and replaced O ring seals. I also had to replace the distributor housing with a different one due to a crack in the one I had on there. That's why is was leaking but I just thought it was the O ring seal. I had made marks on the housing and distributor prior to removing them so I could get it reinstalled in the same place but after having to replace the housing, the mark on the old housing didn't do me any good. I measured the old housing in order to make a mark in the same place on the replacement housing but it could be off a little. I did not check the timing with a light because I don't have one yet but it fired right up just like it had before I done any of this work. This is why I'm thinking the timing might be causing the spark plugs to look like this but was not sure. Just looking for some advice from some of you that have more experience with diagnosing problems by looking at the plugs.
Joined
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317 Posts
Outlawmws: Does the Sammi have a knock sensor?
1.3 engine troubles, need advice
Well I guess my problem is more serious than just the color of the plugs. I went out for a ride Friday evening and the engine started missing. I raise the hood and see spark coming from around the #1 plug. I pull the plug and the top porcelain part is cracked. I put a new plug in and everything seemed to clear up for a while. After a little while, the missing comes back so I head for the house. I get up Sunday morning and start checking everything. I pull all the plugs out first to find that 3 out of 4 of them are cracked. The #1 plug that was replaced is cracked again. No damage is being done to the tip of the plug that goes into the cylinder. Well at this point I'm thinking that something must not have been lined back up right when I put everything back together when I replace the timing belt so I taking everything back apart. I pulled the distributor, the valve cover, the timing belt cover, the timing belt back off. I then set the crank timing mark at 12 O'clock in line with the mark on the block. I then set the cam sprocket timing mark at 12 O'clock in line with the mark on the cam cover. I put the timing belt back on and then rotated the engine a couple times to ensure the marks stay lined up and they did. I then rotated the crank 360 degrees so that the crank timing mark is still at 12 O'clock and the cam shaft sprocket timing mark is now at 6 O'clock and re-installed the distributor with the rotor pointing to the #1 post. I reset the valve clearances and then removed the distributor again so I could get the valve cover back on. I then put the distributor back in and lined up the marks I had made on the dist. and the housing. I put good plugs back in and fire it up. It fired right up just like it had been and I then reset the timing to 10 degrees BTDC using a timing light. I let it warm up a while and then went for a ride down the street. The missing is still there so I go back to the house and check the plugs. None of them are cracked. I decided to take everything back apart again and consult this board before doing anything else. So right now, I have the distributor removed, the valve cover removed, the valve adjusting screws backed off the valves, the timing belt cover and belt removed. Any ideas of what may be wrong ? What caused the spark plugs to crack ? Maybe too much heat from the timing being off or something ? The engine has started right up each time I have put it back together and idles smooth. I did notice yesterday that while checking the timing with the light right before I decided to take it back apart that the timing marks did not stay stationary. While watching the marks with the light, on minute the marks would be lined up properly and then all of a sudden, the mark on the pulley would disappear for a few seconds and then come back. Yes, I had the light hooked up correctly on the #1 plug wire and in the correct direction. I'm looking for some advice on what I may be doing wrong. I'm lost at this point because every time I recheck things, all seems to be lined up correctly.
Well I guess my problem is more serious than just the color of the plugs. I went out for a ride Friday evening and the engine started missing. I raise the hood and see spark coming from around the #1 plug. I pull the plug and the top porcelain part is cracked. I put a new plug in and everything seemed to clear up for a while. After a little while, the missing comes back so I head for the house. I get up Sunday morning and start checking everything. I pull all the plugs out first to find that 3 out of 4 of them are cracked. The #1 plug that was replaced is cracked again. No damage is being done to the tip of the plug that goes into the cylinder. Well at this point I'm thinking that something must not have been lined back up right when I put everything back together when I replace the timing belt so I taking everything back apart. I pulled the distributor, the valve cover, the timing belt cover, the timing belt back off. I then set the crank timing mark at 12 O'clock in line with the mark on the block. I then set the cam sprocket timing mark at 12 O'clock in line with the mark on the cam cover. I put the timing belt back on and then rotated the engine a couple times to ensure the marks stay lined up and they did. I then rotated the crank 360 degrees so that the crank timing mark is still at 12 O'clock and the cam shaft sprocket timing mark is now at 6 O'clock and re-installed the distributor with the rotor pointing to the #1 post. I reset the valve clearances and then removed the distributor again so I could get the valve cover back on. I then put the distributor back in and lined up the marks I had made on the dist. and the housing. I put good plugs back in and fire it up. It fired right up just like it had been and I then reset the timing to 10 degrees BTDC using a timing light. I let it warm up a while and then went for a ride down the street. The missing is still there so I go back to the house and check the plugs. None of them are cracked. I decided to take everything back apart again and consult this board before doing anything else. So right now, I have the distributor removed, the valve cover removed, the valve adjusting screws backed off the valves, the timing belt cover and belt removed. Any ideas of what may be wrong ? What caused the spark plugs to crack ? Maybe too much heat from the timing being off or something ? The engine has started right up each time I have put it back together and idles smooth. I did notice yesterday that while checking the timing with the light right before I decided to take it back apart that the timing marks did not stay stationary. While watching the marks with the light, on minute the marks would be lined up properly and then all of a sudden, the mark on the pulley would disappear for a few seconds and then come back. Yes, I had the light hooked up correctly on the #1 plug wire and in the correct direction. I'm looking for some advice on what I may be doing wrong. I'm lost at this point because every time I recheck things, all seems to be lined up correctly.
Re: 1.3 engine troubles, need advice
I was just going over the timing belt replacement procedure in the Haynes manual and thought that this might be a issue. There is a note that says, on 8 valve motors you should loosen the valve adjustment lock nuts and back the adjustment screws off the valve stems before replacing the belt and setting up the timing marks. I had not done this on the two times I have taken it apart and put it back together. Do you think this could be the problem ? Why do the adjustment screws have to be backed off ?
I was just going over the timing belt replacement procedure in the Haynes manual and thought that this might be a issue. There is a note that says, on 8 valve motors you should loosen the valve adjustment lock nuts and back the adjustment screws off the valve stems before replacing the belt and setting up the timing marks. I had not done this on the two times I have taken it apart and put it back together. Do you think this could be the problem ? Why do the adjustment screws have to be backed off ?
Joined
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317 Posts
Re: 1.3 engine troubles, need advice
I think its so you get the cam belt tensioner set correctly. I didn't know that when I did mine but its been 20,000 miles now so I guess it wasn't that important.
I think its so you get the cam belt tensioner set correctly. I didn't know that when I did mine but its been 20,000 miles now so I guess it wasn't that important.
Re: 1.3 engine troubles, need advice
My timing marks lined up correctly even after turning the crank a couple times so I didn't think that it mattered if I didn't back them off. James noted above that he thinks it might have an effect on the belt tensioner. If that's the case then maybe the timing marks may have been off if I had backed off on the adjusters. Maybe I was getting flase readings. Anyone else have any ideas to the soluton to my problem ?
My timing marks lined up correctly even after turning the crank a couple times so I didn't think that it mattered if I didn't back them off. James noted above that he thinks it might have an effect on the belt tensioner. If that's the case then maybe the timing marks may have been off if I had backed off on the adjusters. Maybe I was getting flase readings. Anyone else have any ideas to the soluton to my problem ?
G
Guest
·timing belt issues
well, I sure hope I have this one right. Otherwise, I will lose another five dollars to one of the Big Kahunas.
Ironically, I am currently working on abstracting all of the last year's posts concerning timing belts. Believe me, there's BEAUCOUP posts on the subject and lots of diverse opinions.
One thing shine through, however, if you take the FOUR FRICKKING HOURS it took me to wade through them:
Back off your valves and let your cam run free when you do the timing belt tension deal. The reason for doing this is to let the tensioner ITSELF do the job and not get fumbled up in thinking it is "tight" when it is a false signal from the valve assembly up top. Actually, when you think about it in a "beer free" moment, it makes a huge amount of sense.
Me-thinks the Japanese who wrote the FSM in the first place had a real reason for telling you to do this.
Even though the FSM is a pretty weighty book, it's not what you would call "wordy." It's kinda like zen, sorta, if you know what I mean. Sometimes, I read the FSM to put myself to sleep. It works better than a sleeping pill, although I haven't had one of those in about 40 years.
Once we were traveling in the South and staying in motels. I put myself to sleep by reading the yellow pages, counting Baptist churches, actually. Better than...well, better not "go there." But the Zuki FSM is better than that!
However, that said, their advice on backing off your valves so you can get "true" tension on the belt from the tensioner and its spring is GOOD ADVICE.
Here's one other piece of advice--call up your local Zuki dealer and order a NEW spring for the tensioner pulley deal. Guess what? It will cost you about $3 including shipping and tax. If that ain't a great deal, I don't know what is. Why would you go to all the trouble to redo the whole belt and "whatever" deal without putting in a new spring, too?
For three bucks? Come on.
Anyway, take a deep breath and JUST DO IT!
j&S in Rimrock
well, I sure hope I have this one right. Otherwise, I will lose another five dollars to one of the Big Kahunas.
Ironically, I am currently working on abstracting all of the last year's posts concerning timing belts. Believe me, there's BEAUCOUP posts on the subject and lots of diverse opinions.
One thing shine through, however, if you take the FOUR FRICKKING HOURS it took me to wade through them:
Back off your valves and let your cam run free when you do the timing belt tension deal. The reason for doing this is to let the tensioner ITSELF do the job and not get fumbled up in thinking it is "tight" when it is a false signal from the valve assembly up top. Actually, when you think about it in a "beer free" moment, it makes a huge amount of sense.
Me-thinks the Japanese who wrote the FSM in the first place had a real reason for telling you to do this.
Even though the FSM is a pretty weighty book, it's not what you would call "wordy." It's kinda like zen, sorta, if you know what I mean. Sometimes, I read the FSM to put myself to sleep. It works better than a sleeping pill, although I haven't had one of those in about 40 years.
Once we were traveling in the South and staying in motels. I put myself to sleep by reading the yellow pages, counting Baptist churches, actually. Better than...well, better not "go there." But the Zuki FSM is better than that!
However, that said, their advice on backing off your valves so you can get "true" tension on the belt from the tensioner and its spring is GOOD ADVICE.
Here's one other piece of advice--call up your local Zuki dealer and order a NEW spring for the tensioner pulley deal. Guess what? It will cost you about $3 including shipping and tax. If that ain't a great deal, I don't know what is. Why would you go to all the trouble to redo the whole belt and "whatever" deal without putting in a new spring, too?
For three bucks? Come on.
Anyway, take a deep breath and JUST DO IT!
j&S in Rimrock
Re: 1.3 engine troubles, need advice
Ok, you've left a few hints to what may be wrong here . One, you said in your post that the timing marks were moving around , you should ask why? . There are a few reasons this can be happening . Either the pickup coil in the distributor is getting weird or about to go bad , or one of the weight springs has come off or broken altogether . You didn't mention how it pulled , whether it's getting weak or not acting right . Try the light again , see if the marks move suddenly when the throttle is cracked a bit , this will test the vacuum advance . If all is working , contiinue to wind it up a bit and watch the marks . They should move pretty smoothly up the scale and then disappear . A retard type light helps with this as you can "dial back" the timing as it comes up to be able to see it . Also, to be certain you don't have a mechanical problem such as (read: "this sucks") the crank timing sprocket may have eaten out it's keyway as well as the crank by checking the timing at the flywheel . 0* is at the T at the top of the trans bell housing hole . Also, if the head has been decked or the block shaved down you've changed the timing in the cam as well , this can cause a lot of problems with the power band . You also mention the plugs breaking their ceramic , what color was the tips ? If they are overheating and breaking , they should show an ash white . If they are running slightly tan , then the mix is on target and all is well there . Otherwise , watch out for a bad O2 sensor or plugged up carb . It sounds like you are doing the basic mechanical timing properly , with the exception of using the front cover to set it with . Check it at the flywheel , and go form there . BTW, didn't happen to leave a wrench on the crank sprocket and try to start it , did you ? This is about the #1 cause of those sprockets coming loose at a very inconvienent time , and destroying a lot of parts .
Sarge
Ok, you've left a few hints to what may be wrong here . One, you said in your post that the timing marks were moving around , you should ask why? . There are a few reasons this can be happening . Either the pickup coil in the distributor is getting weird or about to go bad , or one of the weight springs has come off or broken altogether . You didn't mention how it pulled , whether it's getting weak or not acting right . Try the light again , see if the marks move suddenly when the throttle is cracked a bit , this will test the vacuum advance . If all is working , contiinue to wind it up a bit and watch the marks . They should move pretty smoothly up the scale and then disappear . A retard type light helps with this as you can "dial back" the timing as it comes up to be able to see it . Also, to be certain you don't have a mechanical problem such as (read: "this sucks") the crank timing sprocket may have eaten out it's keyway as well as the crank by checking the timing at the flywheel . 0* is at the T at the top of the trans bell housing hole . Also, if the head has been decked or the block shaved down you've changed the timing in the cam as well , this can cause a lot of problems with the power band . You also mention the plugs breaking their ceramic , what color was the tips ? If they are overheating and breaking , they should show an ash white . If they are running slightly tan , then the mix is on target and all is well there . Otherwise , watch out for a bad O2 sensor or plugged up carb . It sounds like you are doing the basic mechanical timing properly , with the exception of using the front cover to set it with . Check it at the flywheel , and go form there . BTW, didn't happen to leave a wrench on the crank sprocket and try to start it , did you ? This is about the #1 cause of those sprockets coming loose at a very inconvienent time , and destroying a lot of parts .
Sarge
Re: 1.3 engine troubles, need advice
Thanks for the info. The plugs have a yellowish look as in high speed glazing. I haven't tried to start it with a wrench on the sprocket bolt. I just took the crank spocket off and the key is still in very good shape. I don't know if the head or block has ever been shaved. I don't think that it's ever been gone into. The motor pulled well prior to starting any of the work I have just got into. The timing marks do move smoothly when I raise the rpm's. I'll have to check on the distributor weights. Maybe something there got knocked out of place while I had the distributor out. Well off to get a new front crank seal. I check back here after I get it back together and see how it runs.
Thanks for the info. The plugs have a yellowish look as in high speed glazing. I haven't tried to start it with a wrench on the sprocket bolt. I just took the crank spocket off and the key is still in very good shape. I don't know if the head or block has ever been shaved. I don't think that it's ever been gone into. The motor pulled well prior to starting any of the work I have just got into. The timing marks do move smoothly when I raise the rpm's. I'll have to check on the distributor weights. Maybe something there got knocked out of place while I had the distributor out. Well off to get a new front crank seal. I check back here after I get it back together and see how it runs.
Re: 1.3 engine troubles, need advice
Well so far so good. I've got it back together and put in 4 new plugs. I took Sarge's advice and timed it off the flyfeel and it's back to running good again. It looks like the backing off the valve adjusters is a must do thing if you want to make sure it runs right after changing the timing belt. I'm going to drive it around some more in the morning before I'm going to say it's fixed for sure.
Well so far so good. I've got it back together and put in 4 new plugs. I took Sarge's advice and timed it off the flyfeel and it's back to running good again. It looks like the backing off the valve adjusters is a must do thing if you want to make sure it runs right after changing the timing belt. I'm going to drive it around some more in the morning before I'm going to say it's fixed for sure.
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