Yep. You are absolutely correct, sir.

Just a question though, aren't safety factors built into the engineering? You know, like a safety factor of 1.5, which is what we used during our design classes, or 1.9 when working on heavier vehicles.

I purposely went to larger axles with larger brakes for the Scrambler, stopping is a necessity. All the modifications are also to excess, so the rest of the vehicle will literally have to tear apart before my mods fail.

As to the rest, I drive my Scrambler, which is pretty heavily modified, to and from the trails, and it typically sees about 3,000 miles a year. It also does about 55 top end on the road. Is it dangerous? You bet, but then I don't drive it like a race car, I drive it a lot more cautiously than I do my motorcycle, because I realize it's a lot more dangerous than most vehicles on the road.

I also realize that with the larger tires it creates excess stresses on different parts, which is why it usually gets the once over at least once a year, when everything is torn down and looked over. As to tires, bearings, and joints, they're cheap to replace or inspect.

First and foremost on my mind is that I'm driving an altered vehicle, which I have altered. This means if I get into an accident it'll be looked over with a fine tooth comb to see if I screwed up somewhere. The state also has laws regulating the amount of lift and other important factors, so staying within those guidelines assures me a margin of safety.

A lot of the over the counter modifications are also "engineered" to be a direct replacement, so driveline angles are kept within specifications for that model.

You are absolutely right about the modifications though, they can be dangerous, and a lot of people just take them for granted, but not me.

JEEPN
'81 CJ-8 Scrambled!
GM151/SM465/NP205 twinstick/7" Lift/33" Swampers/REP 8000/RS9000's/Scout II D44's F&R w/4.10's & Lockrights

 

good points TR but why the anger? something happen? just curious

Boston Mangler
CJ7 With A Bunch Of Goodies
See It At:
http://ct-web.unh.edu/yankeetoys/kspeicher/

 

It should be noted that even stock vehicles are dangerous when driven incorrectly....just because the Jeep or Explorer or whatever has 4 wheel drive doesn't mean it can be driven down a slick road at 25MPH over the speed limit. On dry highway, it won't handle like a sport car; I wish some crazies would stop driving them like it was one....

It could very well be that some of the causes of the Explorer/Firestone rollovers are driver error./wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif

 

I learned my lesson with wheel backspacing the hard way. It is so important to run as deep a backspacing (or as close to stock whatever the case maybe) as possible.

That is why I believe (all things considered) tall skinny tires are the best off road choice, especially if you are going to drive them daily.

So TR what do you drive?

Hank
88 YJ (sort of)

 

Thats a fact.
I have hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in tghe modification of my YJ to a point where everything works well together.
The brakes have all been upgraded, with bigger booster, 4 piston race calipers in the front, discs inthe rear and high quality pads at all 4 corners.
The axles are moser high strength.
The steering is a custom made set up using high strength 3/4 " chromemolly tie rods ends from AFCO Racing, the tie rod and drag link are 1 3/8" chromemolly solid rod.And everything has been modified above the axle to maintane optimum angles.
Suspension has numerouse modifications to allow the lift be adjustable and controllable.
My YJ although lifted close to 8" and running 35x12.50 15 tires is actually very controllable on the highway, and is noot the nightmarich swerving ride sometimes related to this type of vehicle. But it has not been easy to get it to that point.
I also constantly have to check components and, I dont drive it like a race car on the road(or off, for that matter), I rarely ever drive over 65mph.
Im also not a good enough welder to trust my own welding on suspension and steering, modifications. So I only design and tack weld into place, then have either my structural steel welding pros, or local pro welders finish it up. My welding is getting much better, but I contain it to racks and other non life threatening peripheals(I would love to get a chance to train under a great welder, and really learn what Im doing).
TR is very correct though.
Its definitely not a matter of putting on some arched springs a body lift and big tires then your done. And even if done right common sense still is very essential when on and off road.Rollovers are very posiible.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

Absolutely Correct, Jeff, the most important part of any vehicle is the gray thing between the ears of the owner/driver!!/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

 

So.... What\'s yer point?

Some interesting informaiton there, and some points that should be brought up, but also a lot of assumptions, and incorrect things I would hardly call "fact" as you did.

So what is the point of that little post? Come on - offer up some suggestions, corrections, etc.

So you figured out what is "wrong"... nothing new there, that stuff has been hashed around a million times on every BBS and mailing list I have ever read... Tell us how to "fix" it and that is an accomplishment /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

 

Re: So.... What\'s yer point?

I am more afraid of a loaded 18-wheeler with a driver that thinks that sleep is not an option.

TR, it seems the vehicle you described will not move forward with out falling over first.

I would hope that most of us are responsible enough to take some if not all of these factors into account when we are modifying our rig. If they don't, they should try.

I agree that we sometimes need to be reminded of safety issues associated with our hobbies and we all should consider the things that TR has said, but we have to be reasonable. A 31" tire and a 1" body lift is not going to cause a TJ to break in half and explode into flame.

I have BFG 35-12.5 15 tires and can still lock the brakes and skid all four tires on dry clean pavement with no brake mods. I agree that the leverage has change but I believe that I am still within limits.

Anybody that doesn't regularly service and check his or her wheel bearings etc. is asking for trouble no matter what mods have been done.

In all the years that I have been driving and all the different 4X4's, wheel tire combinations, race cars, and big hp engines, I have never had a failure related to tire size, rim back spacing, steering geometry, or any other part that I have modified to achieve a certain goal.

That's not to say that I haven't failures. I have blown transmissions, differentials, and an engine or two but it was certainly pilot error (ego). I can break anything if the old ego gets involved.

I guess that my code or creed is to stay on top of service and maintenance of my vehicles and try to consider all after affects when adding or modifying suspension parts or systems. A small bit of reason and common sense will go a long way to make things safer.

Drive safe.
Mizu

 

I was an 'expert' witness a while back in a civil suit, and the judge in that case just subpoenaed me to testify as an independent witness in a new trial...
I just got the brief.

A moron took an old bronco, put 40 tall tires on it, a homemade lift kit, and no insurance, and lost control on an Interstate.
Side swiped another car, and that car lost control and caused a truck to crash into several other cars.

The guy in the bronco that caused it all didn't get hurt, but a 3 year old girl was killed, and 2 other people seriously injured (one with spinal cord injuries).

As far as I'm concerned, the bronco owner is guilty of vehicular homicide, (man slaughter).

It looks like he took an on ramp at about 70 miles an hour, and one of the steering knuckles gave way, launching him across three lanes of traffic going his way, and four lanes going the other way.

-----------------------------

I guess the moral of the story is, Unless you have an education in engineering, don't attempt to do body lifts and change to grossly over sized wheels and tires unless you know what's going to happen...
And for crying out loud, drive like you have some sense....

It would be a really good idea if you took into consideration the application, and used the minimum size wheel, tire, lift, ect. you can get away with.
It will save you time, money, aggravation, and maybe your life, or someone elses life....

In this case, one 3 year old girl is dead, one man in a wheel chair for life, hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage and medical bills, three law suits, and a whole lot of other problems because some bone head wanted to be 'Cool'....


"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

 

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif I pass vehicles nearly every day which have glaring defects related to lifts and other modifacations. Some of them are even a danger to another vehicle that they might happen to rear-end vbecause the front bumpers are so high as to ride over any substantial body "defense" and go into the passenger areas of a smaller auto if a collision were to occur. I can't help but mentally re-engineer stuff that I see here and there, INCLUDING Mediocre Fred's half-ton pickup with the non-floater rear axles and deep dish chrome wheels hauling his years supply of firewood home from the forest. No lift....no larger tires, just punched chromies and he is an accident waiting to happen./wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Tracs modified While-U-Wait by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Quadra-Trac Team./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

 

Granted I am just going on what you have written here, but it sure looks to me more like the cause of the accident was excessive speed and simple part failure.

Was is shown that the homemade lift cause the knuckle to fail? You said old Bronco, were the steering part already going to fail?

I don't mean to be belittle the seriousness of this incident, but it seems that jumping to blame the home-made lift and big tires for what happened somehow leaves out the excessive speed, and possible poor driver skill/reaction, as well as the state of the components before the lift and big tires were even installed.

What happened to that Bronco happens every day on the road to cars and trucks alike: a tire blows or something fails and the driver is thrown across the road and sometimes people are killed or injured permanently.

Not excusing the guy's actions... just thinking out loud here about some of the other factors that likely came into play here...

 

I was going to ask if you have had an aneurysm or something recently due to the nasty tone of your posts (ala TR vs. JEEPN and "...Off to do jeep stuff"), but the second post clearly marked your position and your tone. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

I know there's probably more to it, I'm sure TR just gave us the lowdown, and didn't need to go into specifics. If he was given a subpoena to appear in court, it means there is a dispute as to the incident in question. Yes, parts fail, but due to the lift? That's what he'll have to determine. From the sounds of it, if he used the stock running gear, the part would have failed under those conditions. But that's not up to us to determine, and only he has the rest of the specifics. I wish you luck TR, it's a sucky case to be drafted into, especially when emotions can play an integral part.

JEEPN
'81 CJ-8 Scrambled!
GM151/SM465/NP205 twinstick/7" Lift/33" Swampers/REP 8000/RS9000's/Scout II D44's F&R w/4.10's & Lockrights

 

TR

You are absolutely correct on the technical aspects of vehicle modification for off-road use.

The only problem is the fact that most of the highly mofified rigs I see on the highway are what I call "Freeway Four Wheelers". These are the the rigs that are built solely for the purpose of looking cool. They have not nor will they ever stray off the pavement. We've all seen them, I'm sure.

On the other hand there are the hardcore wheelers. These people, for the most part, take care of their machinery. They constantly inspect and pay close attention to anything that looks or feels marginal. Most of the hardcore people will ask for help if they get into design grey areas.

Some of the iron rolling around my neighborhood of Carson-Sparks-Reno is really and truly scary sh!t. Stuff that looks like an upside-down truss bridge with 40" tires. These are the things that are disasters looking for a place to happen. To top it off these clowns think nothing of driving 75 to 80 MPH in the crappiest conditions imaginable.

Now comes the hard part ... enforcement. Most states have laws regarding the modification of vehicles. However, enforcement is spotty and/or selective at best. I can tell you for sure that I have never seen the NHP stop a riduculously raised 4X4. But I've been pulled over for going to slow in mine.

Maybe Mizu will tell you about the trash haulers we got around here. I get pissed off daily just looking at them.

Rockcrusher

 

What really scares you is those upside down truss bridge vehicles that are being driven by the creators girl friend....at 80+ mph.

I can attest to the fact that some of the vehicles on our highways here in Reno are somewhat scary but the ones that really stand out to me are the ones that people really take care of and are apparently built right. There are a couple of 4x4's that reside near my home that will simply make you drool.

Not to mention the 4th place Tuff Truck Challenge vehicle, which is a pumpkin orange samurai from hell.

What were we talking about again?
Oh well...Lets go wheeling before it gets to cold!

Rockcrusher, have you ever been to hunter lake? What did you think?
Mizu

 

I dont think you can pre judge whether or not the lift and tires caused the accident. But then again I dont know what TR has done so far along the lines of inspecting the suspect vehicle and its components. I for the life of me cant figure how come so many people have died due to the Ford Explorer, Firestone failures that have been happening. I have ahd a few blowouts in my life, and with a little coomon sense and driving skills, it is really nothing more than an inconvenience and some road side repair. I would say that my vehicle is as safe as the next, as long as i dont try to make it do something its, clearly not designed for even in stock form. All lift kits nowadays come with warning labels as does the factory literature, warning of high profile vehicles potential dangers. So until we all as a society decide that everyone has to drive low slung, all wheel drive, disk brake, road hugging, low HP sedans, then their will be some inheirant dangers in driving high profile rigs.
On the other hand the vehicles I find ludicrouse are the 100 plus horsepower 2 wheel crotch rockets, being driven by kids who were still scraping up their knees on their 10 speeds a month earlier. These things have HP and handeling we only dreamed of when I was road racing 20 years ago(man Im getting old). I watched a kid in Laguna Hills a couple of years ago stand up a 750 Ninja, while attempting to get on the freeway,a dn didnt get the front end back down untill he crossed all 4 lanes, and plowed into the center divider at about 80 MPH and ended up on the other side of the freeway "dead". The papers said he was 17 yrs old and had the bike for a 3 weeks. The lady that actualy ran him over had 2 kids in the car, and was devastated that she may have killed him, though they said contact with handle bars to his chest probably killed him first.With all due respect for the dead kids family, that is flippin idiotic.
Like Ive said before its a dangerouse world out there.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

Mizu,
that Sami is Jake Hallenbecks. I wheeled with Jake all summer, and his freind Joe with the Lime Green YJ(they look like a Citrus fruit commercial). In fact we opened up an extremely tough, new section of Bronco Canyon at the start of summer. Jake, used to work at Donny's 4X, but is now over at 4 WPW, if you havent met him, you should stop in and introduce yourself. Tell him Jeff said Hi.
Later,

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

I was called in because the judge can't believe the 'expert' witnesses on either side.
This is what the call a 'bench arbitration trial', and I'm not quite sure what that means, but the judge says that both sides have agreed that whatever the judge decides is a final verdict, with no appeals.

I'm not the only 'expert' that the judge has called in, but he told me he trusts my explanations of what goes on with mechanical technical information.
He has me explain what the other egg-heads have written, plus my opinion of what went on.

According to stress lines, and polarized optical inspection of the failed steering knuckle, it was simply pulled apart.
I'm still waiting on the spectral and grain analysis.

Over leveraged by too tall of tires, too much body and chassis lift causing a dramatic increase in leverage.
Speed relating to centrifugal force, specifically side loading, was a contributing factor, not the cause.
The axle failed specifically because of the leverage of too much tire, and the design of the really poorly done axle lift blocks for the suspension lift...
-----------------------------

Incidentally, the guy blew a .12 Blood Alcohol Content when the police arrived.
.10 is the uppermost legal limit here.
Refused to take the urine or blood test for drugs.
-----------------------------

Now, the truck driver going the other way, that had his log books gone over with a fine tooth comb, had blood and urine tests because there was a death, tested just fine.
The truck that belonged to him was inspected closely also.
Clean as a whistle on all counts.

The truck driver is being sued because his trailer broke in two after he slammed it into an overpass support trying to avoid the accident, and part of the load injured two people minorly in a car...
He's being sued, and this is what the whole thing is about....
---------------------------------

The joker in the bronco side swiped a car, that lost control, and hit the truck.
The bronco, and the side swiped car were going the same way.

The truck driver, going the opposite direction, managed not only to avoid hitting both out of control vehicles head on, but managed to get his truck off the road, and avoid all of the skidding vehicles on the highway.

I can't fault the truck driver, he did everything correctly, to the point of perfection.
He was caught in a 60 to 70 MPH rush hour traffic pile up, four lanes wide, and only made contact with four vehicles, and two of those vehicles hit him.
----------------------------------

Unless you could take an 80,000 Lb. -Plus- vehicle from a mean average speed of 65 MPH to dead stopped in the second lane of four lanes, to the shoulder and a dead stop with people sliding and dodging everywhere, and still have the presents of mind to call the police, and emergency crews, get out the fire extuingher, and give first aid to victims,
And set flares and emergency reflectors.....

If you can do that, and keep clean shorts too, then you have the right to criticize the truck drivers...

If not, shut your pie hole about truck drivers...
---------------------------------

It's not the old pill popping, 'Smokey & The Bandit' wise guys out there anymore...
It's highly regulated, highly inspected, and highly enforced business.
When was the last time YOU had to take your Jeep through a tech inspection?
Over the road trucks get DOT inspected on average once a month by a federally trained DOT inspector... His truck, trailer, and paperwork are all inspected at the same time, and with the advent of electronic log books connected directly to the truck, there is no way to cheat. (As was the case here. Tamper proof electronic log book).

When was the last time you had to stop two or three times a day, and at each stop, have the potential of being required to submit a urine test?
Happens every day at every weigh station for over the road drivers. They don't have a choice. Signing the application for the Commercial Drivers License is authorization to be tested at any time, any where.

When was the last time your rig was gone over with a fine tooth comb?
Checking every fitting for DOT approval, every brake for adjustment, every light, every line, every connection.... Think you would pass?
----------------------------------

Nope, I looked the truck and trailer over with a fine tooth comb.
I came to the same conclusion on the truck as the DOT inspectors, and the state police inspectors.
Everything was not only correct, but exceptional. The guy used the best of everything.

The trailer wasn't as well maintained, but it belonged to the transporter of the cargo.
It was well with in DOT specifications, and I would have to give it a 'Very Good' rating, if there was such a thing...
It was heavily modified for spaciality cargo, but every thing was done correctly, and preformed exactly as designed, with out causing failure on any other part of the vehicle.

The trailer was badly damaged when it hit a concrete support for an overpass brace.
One rail of the trailer frame was stressed to the point of breaking, and did fail.
Extra bracing added by the modifier of the trailer kept the load from getting away and causing more damage, although it was obvious that the trailer was designed to sacrifice the load to keep the trailer from coming apart in a catastrophic collision. (and the load, a transformer, was utterly destroyed)
All in all it was a very good design, and very good modification.

I could not find any fault with the equipment of the truck, the trailer, or the actions of the truck driver, which as I said before, was exemplary.
----------------------------------

I got lucky, one of the officers at the scene took pictures from the overpass looking down on the accident scene.
That single roll of film probably answered more questions than any other thing in the files....
They also took lots of pictures of the failed parts of both the bronco and truck...
----------------------------------

I have lots to do, later folks...

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

 

I don't know a whole lot about what all the sides are saying, but in regards to the Explorer accidents, I have to imagine that driver error did fault them. These SUVs being driven by inexperienced drivers as if they were in cars don't realize that when a tire looses its tread, it becomes almost uncontrollable. I learned early from my father that tires are NEVER truly guaranteed not to burst. I've been in a car when a tire let goes, and even a tire so small takes a lot of work to control. I have friend that was in the army and he blew out a tire after hitting a rock at full speed. They were towing a trailer and between them, all he could do was hold on and fight the steering's desire to turn. He just let it coast to a stop and was fine.

My point is that Drivers Ed courses should teach all students how to handle larger vehicles. Then again, Drivers Ed seems to have lost some of its sting since I learned, and where I learned. My wife from Fl wasn't required to parellel park!!! She still can't!

Extinct

 

TR, I thought my dad had a bad job. Actually he does. He’s a pastor and he’s the guy that would have been called in to tell that family that their 3 year old was dead. When I first got my Jeep, he was furious. It took a few weeks to get all the forms adjusted, and in that time, he warmed up to the idea of my owning a Jeep, but only after he taught me everything he knew about driving a high profile vehicle. He was a pastor in the valley (Shenandoah valley) and had lots of four wheel driving parishners. To this day, I credit him with saving my life. Three months after he taught me not only how to drive a Jeep, but how to do so in BAD conditions, I hit black ice going into a turn. I was able to keep the Jeep in control long enough to avoid oncoming traffic and a very steep ravine. I couldn’t resist the force of momentum well enough to prevent my going off the road into the shallower part of the ravine. Even though my Jeep was destroyed, I was fine, and so were the other people on the road. I was going 30mph on an otherwise dry road. The Highway patrolman who came out said flatly that it was amazing I survived at all. I wasn’t charged for anything because everything proved that I did my best to prevent an accident at my own vehicles loss. I called my dad who came out to get me, i’m just glad somebody else didn’t have to.

Peace and TR, don’t let that trucker get hurt.

Extinct

 

Mizu

Check your private messages.

Rockcrusher

 

What scares me after reading TR's account is that I've bought a modified Jeep 4 years ago and I still can not figure what modifications have been performed. The good thing is that I spent 3 years with this Jeep and didn't even add 50 miles to the spedo. I know the thing inside and out from a garage point of view. I just started replacing questionable parts; axles, brakes, u-joints, fuel system, etc....

Hope I'm never in that situation...

(ps: I do have an engineering degree and I still dont feel comfortable designing anything that could possibility affect my life or health. I only have the ability to analyze the modification designed by someone else. It's never worth the risk, be smart)


Archie Gallup
Bath, Maine

78 CJ-7 HT, 304 V8, 3spd, ? Lift, 33x12.5's, Rust. "JeepHeap"
79 IH Scout II, 304 V8 Auto, Stock.

Round Headlights have more fun.....

 

I own a large chunk of a hot rod suspension company, and I won't trust my life to my own welding.
I will trust my life to any of the guys that work here! They are pros, and love working for someone that nothing half A$$ed goes out the door.
We use the best of everything, and all parts like bolts and air line, and fittings are just not DOT approved, but approved for aircraft also.

I'm very proud of that fact. We risk no one for a buck.

Our kits cost about $100 more than the competition, but you get what you pay for.
Stress tested steels, Every batch, not just one, then order more of the same size.
Every fitting and every bolt, and every air line is DOT approved, most is approved for flight ratings.

We are the top of the line, and if the lives of your family, and your lives aren't worth the extra $100, then get thee to the discount houses that use cheap line and plastic fittings, and bags that self destruct when they air down....

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

 

H8monday,
I have seen the lime green YJ, it is one of those jeeps that I drool over when I see it.

I have met Jake. I was at 4wpw when they were all looking at the magazine that Jake was in and they were all congratulating him. He went on to tell me about all the things he has done to it and I was very impressed. There is very little sami left, it is mostly Toyota and Suzuki Sidekick.
What a sweet machine he has built, it deserves every bit of praise it gets.

From what I have seen, your jeep is quite nice too.

Have fun.
Mizu

 

Excellent points about mods TR, sounds like you have quite a job ahead of you with the lawsuit. It figures that the professional truck driver caught in a bad situation gets sued. Can't they sue the real cause of the accident? (The dipsh*t that was intoxicated, and speeding) Sounds frivolous to me to sue the semi-driver. Well, maybe not. You can probably squeeze more money out of his business than some drunk loser with no insurance. Can you say GREED...

I think the main problem is that people think they can drive any car like a Corvette if they are in a hurry. I know that you will never see my Jeep go over 50 unless it's on a trailer!

Anyway good luck!

Steve M
1976 CJ-7, 304, TH400, Q-Trac, 4:10's, 33x12.5 Goodyear MT's, rotten floorboards, cheesy aluminum tub overlay, you get the idea....

"Heavy guns - Reach out and touch someone"