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I heard that Smittybilt may be in financial straights. Anyone out there have a Roll bar they want to part with? I am finally ready to break down and put one in.
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Roll Bar??
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on the subjest of rollbars, i was just given 80 feet of shcedual 40 pipe. all in 10' lengths. so im looking for disighn that have minimul bends and maximum hardtop interior space. ie i am big and like my sapce. Im actually looking for pictures of waht to do around the dash area especialy.
and im still not sure of if im going to go internal or external cage... they both have pros and cons
another roll cage question. Would mounting the cage to the body mounts be strong enough, or should i make the point of going right toi the frame.
and im still not sure of if im going to go internal or external cage... they both have pros and cons
another roll cage question. Would mounting the cage to the body mounts be strong enough, or should i make the point of going right toi the frame.
I saw it at a couple of Jeepsters and some get togethers and now realize that if I ever due another rollcage, I would remove th dashpad and put it through the top of the dash and then re-instal the pad with some slite mods. As far as whether to go to the frame I opted not to to much hassle. To add lower support I put another Tube along the dip between the cargo aarea and the driving area, for added support and a peice of plate steel across the back. Hope this helps
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4,287 Posts
Commando Lung: did you see mine, I did just what you are talking about. I thought I had the only one. I took off the dashpad, drilled out the dash and did a full cage.
heres a couple of links to it.
cage construction
Cage completed with dash cut outs
heres a couple of links to it.
cage construction
Cage completed with dash cut outs
G
Guest
·It's an ugly argument for sure! The problem with pipe is it's designed to handle internal pressure from gas, water, etc. not the type of loads that a roll cage will see. Pipe tends to be more brittle than tubing, meaning it will break where the tubing may just bend.
Whether or not to tie into the frame or not is also a subject of some debate. My personal opinion is to tie it in using different size plates above and below the floor and bolt the plates together. Then weld a bracket from the lower plate to the frame.
Just my $0.02
Whether or not to tie into the frame or not is also a subject of some debate. My personal opinion is to tie it in using different size plates above and below the floor and bolt the plates together. Then weld a bracket from the lower plate to the frame.
Just my $0.02
I like the idea of retaining the glove box and the easy use of the window roller, but I also like the idea of being able to take the roll bar out and apart. Cliffhanger, are the floor plates welded to the tubes on the front hoop, and if so, how do you get it apart? I guess you could weld a giant nut on the backside of a plug on the bottom of the tume and run a bolt through the plates and body from the underside, but it doesn't look like you did that.
I'm planning on getting rid of the dash in lieu of a tube to connect the two legs of the hoop and use a piece of 3/8 plate to go flat to the side and around the dash area, then connect to another section of tube to the floor. THis would also give me an area to mount a few gauges without needing to cut into the dash. Anybody try this yet. There are several TJ cages that do this. Posted is an example from Poison Spyder.
No doubt though, Cliffhangers approach is probably the strongest option, the fewer bends and welds the better.
I'm planning on getting rid of the dash in lieu of a tube to connect the two legs of the hoop and use a piece of 3/8 plate to go flat to the side and around the dash area, then connect to another section of tube to the floor. THis would also give me an area to mount a few gauges without needing to cut into the dash. Anybody try this yet. There are several TJ cages that do this. Posted is an example from Poison Spyder.
No doubt though, Cliffhangers approach is probably the strongest option, the fewer bends and welds the better.
Attachments
Makes you wonder why USAC, NASCAR, SCCA, PRA, URA, etc, professional racing associations, don't allow sprinkler pipe. They must be nuts - probably haven't had any experience with crashes or rollovers.
Ever wonder why stock cars cages are "inside" the body (no convertibles,) and NOT tied to the frame?
Had a gopher trap once - worked just like a bar tied to the frame - worked great!
Yes, some outlaw associations allow it - and allow beer in the pits.
Yes, on occasion for slolems SCCA allows single loops on some stock sports cars.
But then - who plans on a roll anyway?
Now lets hear "I'll only roll it gently."
Ever wonder why stock cars cages are "inside" the body (no convertibles,) and NOT tied to the frame?
Had a gopher trap once - worked just like a bar tied to the frame - worked great!
Yes, some outlaw associations allow it - and allow beer in the pits.
Yes, on occasion for slolems SCCA allows single loops on some stock sports cars.
But then - who plans on a roll anyway?
Now lets hear "I'll only roll it gently."
G
Guest
·I guess I'd rather take my chances with one tied into the frame and the floor boards sandwiched between pinch plates than hope that the 30 year old kind of rusty sheet metal holds up. Just my choice.
Aren't the bodies on stock cars just sheet metal "screwed" to a tube chasis? Then what holds the cage to the rest of the chassis. Not the sheet metal that comes flying off in a crash. Maybe Velcro? I've never actually looked at one so what do I know. I tell you what when I drive my Jeepster 200 MPH around Daytona I'll build a cage just like they do.
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I had a mouse trap once - worked just like a roll cage on flimsy sheet metal floors!
Aren't the bodies on stock cars just sheet metal "screwed" to a tube chasis? Then what holds the cage to the rest of the chassis. Not the sheet metal that comes flying off in a crash. Maybe Velcro? I've never actually looked at one so what do I know. I tell you what when I drive my Jeepster 200 MPH around Daytona I'll build a cage just like they do.
I had a mouse trap once - worked just like a roll cage on flimsy sheet metal floors!
It all depends on what kind of racing. Yes, many are tube chassis that just "look" like what we drive. On those the cage IS the frame. It's all one unit, the body is just panels of aluminum or glass rivited or screwed on. Same with Formula cars.
But some racers are really cars that have been modified with a cage. Notice the cage is built inside the body, so in a crash the body and cage stay together.
The danger in our sport is most are topless vehicles, or at best a thin little top. IF the frame separates from the body. IF - and it's a big if - the cage is attached to the frame, and the frame pulls away from it, the cage becomes the killer. Our bodies are strapped into the body - one huge gopher trap.
Yes, 30 year old sheet metal isn't an attachment point either.
Think about if and when they separate - will the cage hit you? Are the seats mounted to the frame but the belts to the body? Is part of the belts attached to the floor and part to the cage? You don't want your body being the thing that holds everything together.
(They often do separate, if even by only a few inches - take a tour around a junk yard and see all the broken body mounts.) Think - look at your body mounts - same 30 year old sheet metal with rusted 5/16 bolts.
Best way - run a runner plate under and over the floor, connecting the bottom of the cage ends. Trap that body!
Then, if you want, tie the frame into the cage to keep it all together. Careful where you tie your belts and seats too.
Mainly think and look at what you have - then think "what if?" Don't go by rumors.
Plan on a severe crash when building it. You don't want to think "I knew I should have braced it better" just before you hit the bottom of the gully.
Not fun to get hurt by safety equipment.
But some racers are really cars that have been modified with a cage. Notice the cage is built inside the body, so in a crash the body and cage stay together.
The danger in our sport is most are topless vehicles, or at best a thin little top. IF the frame separates from the body. IF - and it's a big if - the cage is attached to the frame, and the frame pulls away from it, the cage becomes the killer. Our bodies are strapped into the body - one huge gopher trap.
Yes, 30 year old sheet metal isn't an attachment point either.
Think about if and when they separate - will the cage hit you? Are the seats mounted to the frame but the belts to the body? Is part of the belts attached to the floor and part to the cage? You don't want your body being the thing that holds everything together.
(They often do separate, if even by only a few inches - take a tour around a junk yard and see all the broken body mounts.) Think - look at your body mounts - same 30 year old sheet metal with rusted 5/16 bolts.
Best way - run a runner plate under and over the floor, connecting the bottom of the cage ends. Trap that body!
Then, if you want, tie the frame into the cage to keep it all together. Careful where you tie your belts and seats too.
Mainly think and look at what you have - then think "what if?" Don't go by rumors.
Plan on a severe crash when building it. You don't want to think "I knew I should have braced it better" just before you hit the bottom of the gully.
Not fun to get hurt by safety equipment.
G
Guest
·Tomorrow I begin construction on my new cage. I sold my smittybilt cage because it was nowhere near safe for my kids in the back seat and was too short for my head. I will be using real tubing and will be sandwiching the body with plates and then tying into the frame. I will also have front and rear seat and seatbelt mounts tied to the cage. I do a lot of serious wheeling and my 104in wheelbase stock frame has had it. I will have 8 points to the frame so that maybe now the suspension will flex, not my frame. Yes, the original design was to allow some frame flex. But, the original design called for 27 in tires and not much serious wheeling. I prayed I would never roll my jeep with that smittybilt cage only attached to a rusty body with seats and belts to the same. Consider what your jeep was designed to do and now think of how you actually use it. As a professional autobody man, I have intimate knowledge of crashes and rollovers. Sheetmetal is not what you should be using to hold yourself in. Race car drivers survive crashes for a reason. The driver compartment should be a separate vault of safety. If you only run your cage to the body, at least consider mounting your seats and belts to the cage. That way if you roll and the cage separates from the body, you are still in a cage. Just my 2 cents.
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I think we are essentially saying the same thing.
As a body man I'm sure you are well aware of the normal damage sustained at where the body mounts to the frame - especially on older vehicles without crush zones and where the frame is separate from the body. That damage shows how in a crash the body and frame move independantly from each other. Sometimes it results in total separation, sometimes in just movement. A walk around a wrecking yard also shows it.
Now for the point I'm trying to get across - this time more graphical.
Most Jeepsters have a body that is separate from the frame. Engine, drive train, suspension etc are all mounted to the frame. The body sits atop the frame, bolted on with long small bolts through rubber biscuits into weldnuts in sheet metal - no mention needed about 30 years of rust etc, the sheet metal alone is enough weakness.
The seats are mounted to the floor - which is part of the body.
The seat belts, lap portion, are attached to the floor (body.)
Now lets add a cage and attach it to the frame through the floor - some folks even drill out the floor so the cage doesn't even touch the floor for vibration isolation purposes.
Now, since it's convenient, lets add the shoulder harness to the cage, either to a crossbar or a verticle.
In a roll or crash, if the body buckled, bounced, bent, or separated - even for just an instant, what happens to the occupant tied in with the belt? Doesn't the shoulder harness pull down on him? What happens to his spine?
Even if the frame to body just moved an inch or two - how's he feel? (Maybe tighten your belt to normal, then have someone pull it 2 inches tighter? Just to see.)
OK, so we move the shoulder strap to the body, not the cage. Maybe to the floor and up and over the back (I don't like those either.)
Roll or crash it again - better - now lets do it harder so the body separates more from the frame. (Hurcules posted a picture a year or so ago of a CJ where the body and frame separated - by about 50 feet or more!) Doesn't the frame mounted cage pull down in relation to the bady? (It cannot move the other way.) Does the frame mounted loop get lower in relation to the body, possibly crushing occupants? (Gopher trap.) Sure, the loop probably won't pull all the way through the floor - your body will help hold them together.
You want a nice secure capsule of safety - the cage, seat, belts, floor - everything around you - to stay together - even if the engine and wheels go bouncing on down the hill. That's my main point!
But the previous methods are great too - for whoever inherits the rig - just wash the blood off and go again. They are very popular methods - you see it all the time - downright scarey sometimes.
Obviously mounting the cage to a sheet metal body like many aftermarket "show bars" do isn't really acceptable either (Smittybuilt included.) Small plates at the foot help, but can let you down fast. Square corners, sharp edges on those plates aren't good either, they just make it easier for the sheet metal to tear.
Sooo - seems like the best way is -
1. Secure the cage to the body so it all will stay together - that's priority.
Use runners above and below the floor tying the cage legs together - thus "trapping" the body.. That creates the "capsule."
2. Tie all harnesses to the capsule making sure they won't get caught and pulled by the frame, tranny etc.
3. Then, if so desired, secure the cage to the frame - to keep it with your capsule.
Notice stock roll cages, like on new Jeeps, Ferraris, Lamborginis, etc. are tied to the body, not the frame. No it's not "just to be cheap," but a safety issue. They understand safety capsules (I'll bet liability lawyers taught them.)
Notice race cars made from actual stock cars the cage is totally inside the stock body, it cannot separate - it's totally trapped inside the roof and trunk areas - but it isn't tied to the frame. Notice harnesses etc - even seats - are also attached to the cage, not the frame.
When it is attached to the frame, it's after the cage is secure as a capsule, then the capsule is used to stiffen the frame.
Unibody or monocoque designs are different - but not even close to a Jeepster. They are essentally all one piece.
Mainly just THINK - imagine all circumstances, plan on the unusual, then drive like you don';t have safety equipment.
As a body man I'm sure you are well aware of the normal damage sustained at where the body mounts to the frame - especially on older vehicles without crush zones and where the frame is separate from the body. That damage shows how in a crash the body and frame move independantly from each other. Sometimes it results in total separation, sometimes in just movement. A walk around a wrecking yard also shows it.
Now for the point I'm trying to get across - this time more graphical.
Most Jeepsters have a body that is separate from the frame. Engine, drive train, suspension etc are all mounted to the frame. The body sits atop the frame, bolted on with long small bolts through rubber biscuits into weldnuts in sheet metal - no mention needed about 30 years of rust etc, the sheet metal alone is enough weakness.
The seats are mounted to the floor - which is part of the body.
The seat belts, lap portion, are attached to the floor (body.)
Now lets add a cage and attach it to the frame through the floor - some folks even drill out the floor so the cage doesn't even touch the floor for vibration isolation purposes.
Now, since it's convenient, lets add the shoulder harness to the cage, either to a crossbar or a verticle.
In a roll or crash, if the body buckled, bounced, bent, or separated - even for just an instant, what happens to the occupant tied in with the belt? Doesn't the shoulder harness pull down on him? What happens to his spine?
Even if the frame to body just moved an inch or two - how's he feel? (Maybe tighten your belt to normal, then have someone pull it 2 inches tighter? Just to see.)
OK, so we move the shoulder strap to the body, not the cage. Maybe to the floor and up and over the back (I don't like those either.)
Roll or crash it again - better - now lets do it harder so the body separates more from the frame. (Hurcules posted a picture a year or so ago of a CJ where the body and frame separated - by about 50 feet or more!) Doesn't the frame mounted cage pull down in relation to the bady? (It cannot move the other way.) Does the frame mounted loop get lower in relation to the body, possibly crushing occupants? (Gopher trap.) Sure, the loop probably won't pull all the way through the floor - your body will help hold them together.
You want a nice secure capsule of safety - the cage, seat, belts, floor - everything around you - to stay together - even if the engine and wheels go bouncing on down the hill. That's my main point!
But the previous methods are great too - for whoever inherits the rig - just wash the blood off and go again. They are very popular methods - you see it all the time - downright scarey sometimes.
Obviously mounting the cage to a sheet metal body like many aftermarket "show bars" do isn't really acceptable either (Smittybuilt included.) Small plates at the foot help, but can let you down fast. Square corners, sharp edges on those plates aren't good either, they just make it easier for the sheet metal to tear.
Sooo - seems like the best way is -
1. Secure the cage to the body so it all will stay together - that's priority.
Use runners above and below the floor tying the cage legs together - thus "trapping" the body.. That creates the "capsule."
2. Tie all harnesses to the capsule making sure they won't get caught and pulled by the frame, tranny etc.
3. Then, if so desired, secure the cage to the frame - to keep it with your capsule.
Notice stock roll cages, like on new Jeeps, Ferraris, Lamborginis, etc. are tied to the body, not the frame. No it's not "just to be cheap," but a safety issue. They understand safety capsules (I'll bet liability lawyers taught them.)
Notice race cars made from actual stock cars the cage is totally inside the stock body, it cannot separate - it's totally trapped inside the roof and trunk areas - but it isn't tied to the frame. Notice harnesses etc - even seats - are also attached to the cage, not the frame.
When it is attached to the frame, it's after the cage is secure as a capsule, then the capsule is used to stiffen the frame.
Unibody or monocoque designs are different - but not even close to a Jeepster. They are essentally all one piece.
Mainly just THINK - imagine all circumstances, plan on the unusual, then drive like you don';t have safety equipment.
I installed a 6 point, sandwiched, 2" rollbar 3 years ago after almost going over backwards on a hill. Hardtop, rollbar, thinking that, offroad, this is good. I'm covered...
Last night, coming home from deer camp, winding snakeback of an Arkansas highway, 45 mph, I was rounding a curve and found 3 does milling around in the road about 50 yards in front of me. Another car coming from the other way, about the same distance, had their brights on. I hit the brakes and started for the shounder. Solid wall of pines and a 5 foot, 45 degree or so drop-off. The other driver had the same idea, but headed for the same side of the road that I was! 2 of the deer left the road on the opposite side and the other driver saw a hole and got back on his side. I straightened out on the shoulder(other states refer to this as the ditch...)and can't understand how I missed the last remaining doe. Lucky girl! Lucky ME!
I got home and read this post. To some extent, all of us are right. We want protection and think of what could happen the way we wheel. Yeah, any cage is better than no cage, I agree. Then again, this is one area we don't want to look back and think...If only I had tied the seat to the bar, or I should have put the belt on the bar.
I am putting the rig in the shop and breaking out the rods. I am also securing the junk I haul around with me. A clinbing stand and my hilift tried to get in the front seat with me and if one or the other had hit my arm or worse, well, this post would have turned out different.
Thanks to all you guys, and 3 does, I have seen the light...
Last night, coming home from deer camp, winding snakeback of an Arkansas highway, 45 mph, I was rounding a curve and found 3 does milling around in the road about 50 yards in front of me. Another car coming from the other way, about the same distance, had their brights on. I hit the brakes and started for the shounder. Solid wall of pines and a 5 foot, 45 degree or so drop-off. The other driver had the same idea, but headed for the same side of the road that I was! 2 of the deer left the road on the opposite side and the other driver saw a hole and got back on his side. I straightened out on the shoulder(other states refer to this as the ditch...)and can't understand how I missed the last remaining doe. Lucky girl! Lucky ME!
I got home and read this post. To some extent, all of us are right. We want protection and think of what could happen the way we wheel. Yeah, any cage is better than no cage, I agree. Then again, this is one area we don't want to look back and think...If only I had tied the seat to the bar, or I should have put the belt on the bar.
I am putting the rig in the shop and breaking out the rods. I am also securing the junk I haul around with me. A clinbing stand and my hilift tried to get in the front seat with me and if one or the other had hit my arm or worse, well, this post would have turned out different.
Thanks to all you guys, and 3 does, I have seen the light...
G
Guest
·Yep, we have the same point. But as far as stock vehicles go, like the wrangler, I am fairly sure that for insurance purposes, jeep says it is not designed for rollover protection. All autobody and insurance people know that it is the passenger compartment that is not allowed to have crush zones. That is why good unibody cars (volvo fo instance) are designed with a cage built into the pillars of the car. Let the rest of the car decinegrate (sp?) around you. As long as you stay in your safety cage. I have seen a rig that had the roll bar separate from the body. Just think about if you are in a triple barrel roll and your cage leaves on the first roll. What are you going to do on the second and third roll if you are attached to the body (seat and seatbelt) Maybe this is an unlikely senario, but it does happen. Its not like most of us could swerve on the freeway in our lifted jeeps and not roll. I know that I have to pretty much keep the wheel straight at freeway speeds or a wheel tries to leave the ground. Anyway, enough from me. Just want all of you to think of your safety as if you are actually going to crash. Then design how you want to be protected.
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Glad you came out OK - you never know when something like can happen. And it sure happens fast!
Yup, it's all gotta stay together. My point is you if you are tied/strapped to 2 things that separate -- well, make a wish just like you do in Turkey day!
Insurance companies won't recognize a TJ cage as a roll cage for liability reasons. If they knew you installed a real cage they assume you drive it in situations that you might roll, they'll cancel you. GMAC did that to me last December!
And - a couple other things to consider - saw it happen - still see it happen at night in my sleep - a rear brace's weld broke, came forward like a spear - stuck through the seat then through the guy's chest. I helped cut the back of the brace out so he could be transported. He lived, for about a month.
Just think what that full beer can, jack handle, screwdriver, ice chest, or High Lift would feel like hitting you in the back of the neck. Secure everything!
My Hi-Lift is in the back, chained in 2 places to the rear cage with big chains.
Just Thmick!
Yup, it's all gotta stay together. My point is you if you are tied/strapped to 2 things that separate -- well, make a wish just like you do in Turkey day!
Insurance companies won't recognize a TJ cage as a roll cage for liability reasons. If they knew you installed a real cage they assume you drive it in situations that you might roll, they'll cancel you. GMAC did that to me last December!
And - a couple other things to consider - saw it happen - still see it happen at night in my sleep - a rear brace's weld broke, came forward like a spear - stuck through the seat then through the guy's chest. I helped cut the back of the brace out so he could be transported. He lived, for about a month.
Just think what that full beer can, jack handle, screwdriver, ice chest, or High Lift would feel like hitting you in the back of the neck. Secure everything!
My Hi-Lift is in the back, chained in 2 places to the rear cage with big chains.
Just Thmick!
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