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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

Now this is going under a Toyota truck so I won't be getting the high pinion currie thirdmember. The cost of the two axles will be very close to even. I am going to go full width. The 12 bolt should be around 65" wide from wheel mount flange to WMF. The 9" will be 67" wide from WMF to WMF. My front axle width is around 67.5".

The 12 bolt will have a Warn Full Floater kit with their lifetime warranty alloy axles, will have a solid machined sleeve to replace the crush sleeve, will have detroit C-locker(BTW anyone know if the C-lockers are as strong as a Softlocker??) and will probably get 5.38 gears with disc brakes coming eventually. Also the 12 bolt will have drive flanges instead of hubs with the full floater kit. The housing will be USED.

The 9" will be a NEW Currie Xtra HD housing-.250" wall seamless tubes, with probably a Warn FF kit or possibly Curries semifloater alloy performance axles, a 31 spline detroit softlocker,43mm bearings, 5.14 gears, Explorer discs and ebrake, and solid machined sleeve to replace the crush sleeve.

The biggest differences between the two will be the Ford axle will be all new and won't be geared as low (5.14) and might not be full floating. The Corp. 12 bolt will be full floating, will be a used housing, and will have 5.38 gears. Does anyone know the particulars of the strength differences as far as bearing caps, gearsets, axle shafts and housings go between the two axles.

The truck is used for extreme rockcrawling and is daily driven. It will be running 37" Claws and over 200:1 gearing.

Any opinions? Oh, before you say dana 60-it's too big and heavy. Thanks for any advice/input.

Sean
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

Have you thought about an 8.8", it has a larger pinion stem than the 9" but the housing isn't as strong. I don't know what could be done to make it survive 37" tires. The 9" would definitly be my choice of the two listed. I assume you mean a truck 12 bolt, the car style has a larger pinion stem than the truck (go figure?) I would but a little more thought into the 60 if I were you. It doesn't hang down much lower than a 9", if you use a semi-floater from a Ford van you don't get the weight of the huge FF drums, and the 60 is very strong, not to mention you could build it yourself for much less than half of what Currie is going to charge you when they finally get around to building you an axle (from what I hear, expect to wait a few months). How do you intend to get 200:1? Martin crawler, double T-case or ?

"My other car is a BULLDOZER"
 

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Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

I am kinda confused here. You don't want the 60 because of it's weight. I think that the 60 is about the same weight as the 12 bolt. 12 bolts arn't that strong, the 14 bolt is a much better axle. Why are you spending all of that money on the full float kits? A 60 from a Ford or Dodge is about the same width, and already has the full floaters, and can be picked up in a yard for about $200. As is the gm 14 bolt. Any good local shop could put new bearings, gears, and lockers in it. The 9 inch is a strong axle, but with that much lift and 37 inch tires, I would think that the lower pinion offset would be a big disadvantage.
I saw a big Ford in a yard today, I think they call it a 10.25, It came from a '99 F-350. It was real nice, full floaters, rear disc, internal parking brake, complete, the asking price was $1800.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

The gear guy at the 4wd shop I used to work at was always ranting about the bolts holding the 12 bolt ring gear to the carrier being backwards and always loosing up??? I don't know he was kind of an odd duck but I do know we always had at least one in the shop being redone, usually fragged axle shafts and gear sets, but you're making it full float would eliminate the blasted c clip axles which are it's major down fall. I like the 9" since you don't have to worry about welding on cast but I'd definately take full float over semi. Personally I'd go with a full floating 14 bolt even though it's not one of my choices I think 37s and all that gearing will kill anything smaller. Good luck with your project be sure to post pictures.
Travis
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

I will be having a 12 bolt cut down and will be using it for a while only be cause I have all new internal parts for it and will cost about $300 for axles and housing modifications from mosser.
when I spoke with them they said that the 12 bolt was about the same as a Dana44 as far as strength goes.
go with the 14 bolt or Dana 60 in the end you will be glad you did
remember in wheelin there is no such thing as overkill!

KEEP THE SHINY SIDE UP
CJJ
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: utahjeeper

I've thought about the 8.8 but it's too narrow. The 12 bolt is the truck one, again, b/c the car 12 bolt is too narrow. Actually, the Currie with a Warn FF kit/discs/hd housing should be about $2200 delivered. The lowest price I got on a 60 were $1900 w/o it being a FF and with my Toyota drums grafted onto the housing.
If it were you, with that sort of price difference (meaning the 60 is going to cost quite a bit more by the time I get the FF kit and discs)what would you do?

I'm already running 2 transfer cases-one has stock 2.28 gears and the second has 4.70 gears. With my 4.88s, it's geared 206:1 in first gear double low. I am also running 35x15.5 (actually 34x15)SXs and the 37s I plan to run are only 13" wide and are really only about 36" tall. I think the axles will hold up better to the somewhat taller but narrower tires. I'm putting a full width 44 with warn axles in the front with an ARB. The rear is what I'm not sure about. It sounds like the 12 bolt is out though.
Thanks,
Sean
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

dorfs, (and everyone else for that matter)
Thanks for the reply. If I ask some questions, please don't think I'm trying to argue, I just need some more clarification.

Buying a 60 is a pretty good idea actually. I just really didn't want to lose the ground clearance or add the weight. The biggest problems I'm finding with it are 1)I don't know that much about them. For instance, do most rear 60s have the 1.5" 35 spline axles or are they mostly 1.31" 30 spline axles like a lot of the front 3/4 ton D60s and that are just like a Dana 44 axle shaft?
2)What is a typical cost for a disc brake conversion? I figure if I'm going to the trouble I might as well go whole hog.
3) The ford 9" pinion is only 1" lower than a Dana 60. Is this really that big a problem. The 9" is also 1.5-2" shorter so shouldn't that even things out some b/c the driveshaft length will be overall longer?
4)I have to convert the bolt pattern to 6 on 5.5". How difficult is this to accomplish? From my understanding, in order to convert to 6 lugs, I'd have to go back to a semi floater. Is this correct?

BTW, I don't plan to lift the truck any higher. I should be able to clear the 37s without anymore lift. I may have to move the front axle forward another inch though.

Thanks for all your help. As always, any suggestions are appreicated. Thanks again,
Sean
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: AZJeeper

I live over in Chandler. We have a run planned for tomorrow morning 9am meeting at the Florence Junction Texaco to do Jawbreaker (4.5 rating) if you're interested. Thanks for the response.

I think the guy from that shop was right. I've heard a couple things about the 12 bolt while researching this swap. The 12 bolt has smaller bearing caps than the 44 but is pretty similar in strength. The bearing caps DO loosen up but there is supposedly a cover out there that will keep them tight. Thanks again for the opinion. I think the 12 bolt is out again.
Take care,
Sean
 

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Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

MarkyMark, the rear disc brakes were only offered with the 4 wheel abs on the F-350.
Sean, I see your dilema now, the bolt pattern. Here is a thought. Would it be cheaper to use the 8 lug wheels, and convert your front 44 using newer GM 8 lug rotors and brakes? If you went that way, Just about any stock full floater would work, D-60, GM 12 and 14 bolt, and even the 10.25 Ford. I personally don't see giving Warn all the money for the ff kit if it is already in production. One nice feature that the Ford 9 in and the GM 14 bolt has is the extra pinion support bearing, which stops any pinion flex. These are just thoughts, It is always good to think things out before dropping big money. p.s. post some pics, I have a 4 Runner as my next project.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

dorfs,
Great minds think alike. I was thinking the same thing. But, I'd have to re-buy my beadlocked wheels so that would make a Warn FF kit cheaper anyway. Another thing I've noticed,(and I'm not at all sure this is important or relevant) is that D60s have huge drum brakes that appear to give the axle alot of it's width. I think most 60s are only 65" wide which is fine, but I'd have all sorts of problems with the drum brakes being so large. My prop valve would definitely need work. I was thinking of going with discs but will I lose alot of width by doing so? (I know, stupid question, but I'm not that familiar with anything non-toyota/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif). Thanks again,
Sean
 

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Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

I perfer Dana 60's also, (cost & used parts availibility are a big factor for me) so here's my 2 cents:
1. you could keep your bead-locked wheels(if they are steel) by having the centers cut out and changed! (install 8-lug centers and have the off-set put where you want)
2. about the huge drum brakes, i have a 30-spline, 3/4ton 60. pictured @ http://www.geocities.com/yj3qtr_ton/rearsus.html Now the brakes aren't those huge 1-ton models, (and i bet you can swap 35-spline axle shafts in when you installed a locker or maybe just different side gears, if you need the added strength)

3/4tonYJ
My Jeep Page
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

Actually the 1.5" 35 spline axles are Dana 70 axles, Dana 60's need to have the inside diameter of the spindles bored out to 1.60" to accept these axles. I'm narrowing a 60 right now and planning to run 35 spline axles, so I've been looking into the particulars recently. If you plan to run full width, Dana 70 axles will bolt into the 60 after the spindles are bored so no need for custom shafts.

"My other car is a BULLDOZER"
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap: Ford 9\" or Corp. 12 bolt??

The only rear D60 axles that came in 35 spline from the factory were semifloat. I believe they were only avail. in a few early MOPAR muscle cars, and some early 70s J-trucks. FYI, Ford 9" can also be set-up to run 35 spline axles, and can be made FF using the Warn kit. This may be good for someone interested in weight savings.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap:utahjeeper, JEEPRZ, 3/4 Ton

So basically if it is true that the 60 only comes in a 30 spline full floater, it's real advantage over the 44 is that it is full floating, has a stronger housing and bigger/better ring and pinion gears since the shaft size and spline count are the same as a 44(30 spline 1.31" diameter shafts).

I thought that most FRONT 60's where 30 spline 1.31" diam. and it was hard to find 1.5" 35 spline, but most rears are actually 35 spline 1.5" diam. Is this not the case? Does it possibly have anything to do with whether it's a 1 ton vs. a 3/4 ton? I'm not arguing, I'm just not sure.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say I get a hold of a full floating, big drummed D60 with 1.5", 35 spline shafts with an 8 lug bolt pattern. Would it be possible to redrill it for 6lugs on a mill (making sure everything is concentric) and then swap in the master cylinder and brake booster from a 3/4T or 1T truck? Or does anyone know of a disc brake kit for a FF D60 rear axle that would convert it to 6lugs? I'm sure this is probably way too oversimplified, b/c if this was available or possible everyone would do it. I just figured I'd ask/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif.

BTW, my wheels are one piece aluminum, so cutting out the centers isn't possible.

Thanks for all your help.
Sean
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap:utahjeeper, JEEPRZ, 3/4 Ton

I have scoured through all the axle info I could find. I know I have more stuff, so if you have more questions I can look a little harder.

As far as I can tell the Dana 60 full floater was offered with three different axle shaft confiurations. There was an uncommon 1.31- 16 spline, this is obviously undesirable except for the housing. There was the 1.31- 30 spline, this was the most common. Finally there was a "Heavy Duty" Dana 60 that used Dana 70 spindles and ran 1.50- 35 spline shafts. All I can find out about this axle is that it is VERY rare and almost impossible to find used. I haven't even been able to find out what to look under to try to locate one.

You also had some questions about ground clearance. From what I can find the measurement from the horizontal centerline of the axle tubes to the bottom of the housing is as follows: Dana 44 = 5.25"(I also measured my 44 and got the same result), Dana 60 = 6"(my 60 measured 6.125, ?), Ford 9" = 5.75"(I don't have a 9" to be able to confirm this). Assuming these are the correct specs for the 9" and considering the variance between my actual measurement and the listed spec there is only .25 to .375 difference between the 9" and the 60.

Stock for stock a Dana 60 full floater complete with drums weighs 46 lbs more than a complete 9". Again considering stock components a 9" is really more comparable to a Dana 44 with the 9" being slightly stronger. In order to get the 9" to equal a stock (30 spline) Dana 60 requires an aftermarket nodular(ductile) iron third member and aftermarket 31 or 35 spline axle shafts (28 spline is stock). Even at this point the housing is not as strong as a stock 60.

Getting 35 spline axles for a Dana 60 full floater, I ran into some conflicting information. Some people have told me that boring the spindles inner diameter out to 1.55 or 1.60 (from stock of approx. 1.40) is no problem. Others have said it makes the spindle too thin. I think this is going to require a judgment on your part, depending on your application and who you trust. I tend to believe the guys who told me the boring would be OK due to my gross weight and the overengineering of the original design. If this is done, stock Dana 70 1.50- 35 spline axle shafts will fit in a full width application given that you replace the carrier to accomodate the axle shafts. Another option is to use aftermarket 1.31" axle shafts. These are actually stronger than stock 35 spline shafts. To achieve maximum strength an aftermarket 1.50- 35 spline shaft should be used, this would require boring the spindle. Possibly 70 spindles/tubes could be grafted into a 60 casting to create a homebuilt "Heavy Duty" Dana 60.

As far as brakes and bolt pattern, redrilling the stock 60 drums to match your desired pattern is a viable option. Dynatrac and Off Road Unlimited both offer disc brake swaps for the 60. I don't know if they offer them in different bolt patterns. I would almost be willing to bet that at the very least Dynatrac offers any bolt pattern you want, since you can order a custom axle this way. ORU's kit may only be a designed as conversion for those running 8 lugs already, I don't know. I personally chose to use 8 lug wheels so that I could buy drums off the shelf if mine ever need to be replaced. I would prefer not to have to continue to modify parts when I don't have to. You may want to consider selling your current wheels and going 8 lug.

Personally if I were you I would get a junkyard 60 and install gears and locker of your choice. I would decide now if you think you need the 35 spline axles. If not you can run the stock shafts for now or upgrade to stronger aftermarket 1.31 axles.This is much cheaper than a custom axle. My 60 cost me $65 complete drum to drum. If you can find one for $100 or so then add lockers and gears, possibly shafts you can see how much chaeper this will be. I personally am narrowing my housing (the right way, pulling the tubes out of the casting, shortening and reinstalling), boring the spindles, using custom aftermarket 35 spline axle shafts at the shorter length, running a spool and 4.88's and I figure about $1000.00 complete. Compare that to the cost of a custom built axle.

"My other car is a BULLDOZER"
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: ATTN: utahjeeper Rear Axle Swap:

Thanks very much for all the useful info. I really appreciate it. I have pretty much totally ruled out the corp. 12 bolt and Ford 9" that started this thread and now want to go with the 60 especially since my main reservations were only 46 lbs. and 1/4".

I have another (probably equally stupid) question. Would it not be simpler (definitely not cheaper, but stronger) to buy, like you said, a bone yard dana 60 rear 8 lug axle (either FF or Semi), and then get the Warn FF kit with 35 spline alloy axles and a 35 spline detroit rather than finding a Dana 70 set of axles and boring out the 60 spindles? Apparently, as 3/4 Ton Yj wrote, I could find one of these axles with the 11" drums and probably make them work relatively easily with my stock brake system. I think with gears, lockers, etc. this could turn out to run only about $1500 but will have the heavy duty axles. It wouldn't have discs but I could go that route later. Now would I need to find a SEMI floating 60 to accomlish this or would an already full floating 60 work? Also, I'm assuming (root word:ass/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif) I'd be looking for a 1.31" 30 spline equipped 60. How do I know which year/model to get a semi or full floating 60 from w/o getting the 16 spline version? Are there any visual clues to help me distinguish between the desireable ones and the 16 spline version? What about full vs. semi? Correct me if I'm off here, but don't only full floaters have the drive flange type hub or do semi's have it too?

I also agree that going to an 8 lug wheel would be the best thing, especially when talking about wearing out drums or discs and having to replace them. I admit it is definitely the best thing to do, but I don't know if money will allow it right now.

Thanks very much for the disc info. as well as the weights and ground clearance measurements for the various axles. It was very helpful and enlightening.

As for the custom built axles, I'm planning on building my own now. Thanks again for all your help. Hopefully you don't mind all the questions.
Take care,
Sean
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap:utahjeeper, JEEPRZ, 3/4 Ton

Utahjeepr,

I have narrowed 2 diff dana 60 housings and used mosers 35 spline axles and never had to bore anything out to get the axles to fit. What are you having trouble with as far as getting the 35 spline axles to fit??? I have 6 dana 60s now that come from various applications and all of them will take my 35 spline axles. Steve

Mopar360yj
87yj+20,74CHR.030360,SOA,35BFGATs,46RH,241DHD,
D60-44-4.10
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Re: Rear Axle Swap:utahjeeper, JEEPRZ, 3/4 Ton

Looks like I'm going to have to call Moser and ask some ?'s Are your axles 1.31" dia. or 1.5" The axles I was looking to buy are 1.5" but if there is a 35 spline alloy 1.31" available it could save me (and Sean) some trouble. Just goes to show I don't know everything, heck I ain't even close. I know for a fact that my spindles are about 1.40 ID, so I'm really hoping you've got 1.31" 35 spline axle shafts there.

"My other car is a BULLDOZER"
 
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