"Worst post ever mel
:throwup:
lol "

I thought it was pretty funny... added some needed humor to this thread that won't die.

 

Man i am gone a day. And wow is all i can say. I was hearing about this post from the chat room. But for some reason i couldnt acces ORC. Like i said before WOW.

 

"This post was the highlight and the only laugh of the day!"

Just doing my job as a superhero. Good to see you're able to laugh about it.

And just for conscience sake, I think the Special Olympics are awesome for those folks. I meant to poke fun at those of us who argue on the internet, not the disabled.

 

I know, I'm just messing around.
She definatly did add some humor..lol.
Kinda scary though

 

Now that things seem to have calmed down a bit.

TR - Sorry you had a bad day, sorry I contributed to it. Mine wasn't all that spiffy either.

I certainly did not mean to challenge your knowledge or ability. What I said about Ford vs. HEI is based on my experiences, not others experiences. That can't be changed as it truly did happen - to me. I could go into quite a few stories about it (some funny,) but I don't think it's needed.

The purpose of this board is to share experiences and to help each other. I certainly don't know everything there is to know, I doubt if anybody does. We all have various areas of expertise, and areas of some experience, and lots of areas we would be lost in. I for one know absolutely
nothing except the vary basics of automatic transmission, even though I own several.

We all can learn from each other. I happen to like, as you no doubt do, helping folks with similar interests - in this case off-roading. That's why I bother to reply - when I at least "think" I can help. I could be wrong at times, or mis-interpret what the original complaint was, or even have the wrong vehicle system in mind. I have no problem with being corrected or disagreed with. That's how we learn. After all, we aren't charging for advice, so we don't have to return customer's money (although I've done that too!) Hopefully we never give advice that could cost the reader wasted money. That's why it's so important we get all the information possible along with the symptoms.

I can even do a good job of mispelling too, maybe that's why I can't get anybody to paint my porch for $50?

There have been many points you brought up about the HEI that I've never heard of. Some seem very legitamate, some I really wonder about. That doesn't mean I'll blindly accept it or reject it, but it certainly is food for thought. Just as you didn't blindly accept my Ford experiences. (By the way, the LTD's I meant were late 70's early 80's - before ABS. Again my fault, I didn't clarify enough.)

I'd like to clarify a few things about myself that somehow were missed, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I no longer have my shops, I sold the last one about 1990 or thereabouts. I'd have to check tax records to verify the exact date - the governments made off with most of the profits, we can ask them! As you know all the goverment (Fed, State, and locals) are the larger owners when it comes to the profits, but not the work. All the crooks have their hands in your pockets.

I'm out of the business, I have nothing to sell, no customers, and no headaches.

3 of the 4 shops were general auto repair, 2 had dynos already installed. The last one - without a dyno - was also a smog station. It isn't legal to modify vehicles with non compliant parts, so we did very little real performance work at that one - too many smog cops hanging around looking over your shoulder. We just made stock things work like they were designed to do.

One thing I was really strict on my employees for was to only fix things that were broken. As most all of you know lots of shops shotgun problems till they finally replace the right thing. Our policy was to properly diagnose the problem correctly first before affecting any repairs, that's why we had so much high $$$ test equipment. That policy, once word gets around, leads to very loyal customers.
My purpose in owning the businesses was not to own them. I'd run across good potential ones that were going broke because of mismanagement. I'd buy it cheap, fix it, then sell it for a tidy profit. The idea was to turn it, not keep it. I flipped them as soon as possible.

The other one was Don's Chassis. I was only a lightweight partner in that one. I was brought in because I had the money they needed to stay open. The business was race car chassis, building and tuning. Mainly Formula cars, a few NASCAR cars as well. No, I wasn't part of the technical team, we had engineers, welders and highly skilled technicians for all that. About 35 employees most of the time. Some of the information did rub off on me, but I certainly won't claim to be good enough to do that myself. I was there to try to put it on a profitable basis. I'll tell you this much, it was extremely interesting - it's certainly not a case of just bending up some tubing.
That was also the worst investment I ever made. It's very difficult to turn a profit in the performance business - the details that are soooo important to success are so time consuming that you really can't charge enough. Giant Kudos to you if you can do it.
I finally sold my portion for barely more than I paid - I thought that was fantastic to get out that good. They are gone now, I think it's a parking lot. I think that was '85? Big Uncle would know.
All the time I owned the businesses I also sold diagnostic equipment, my best source of income and the most fun. I got to know and get involved with lots of interesting people that way. Sometimes I miss all that, for about a minute or two.

I was having difficulty forming my question about MSD being a true CD. I've since run across these 2 websites that are interesting. The first one covers the typical magnetic ignition, both points and electronic, which most ignitions are, including Ford and HEI.

The second site gets more into the CD systems, showing more how they work, why they are better under some circumstances and why they aren't. Even though the second site is aimed at Alfa's, it's got a great explaination. I wish I was that eloquent with words.
Even though I've spent the better part of my life staring at, defining, and teaching scope patterns, I learned something from these - and there aren't any patterns.

By the way, the reason I "ordered" the MSD 6 was all my friends shops are between 150 to 200 miles away. I recently moved to the desert now, on the edge of Johnson Valley, CA. No more congestion, hassels, and city idiots - no more drive-by shootings, no more carjackings. I'll never go back except to visit. Mine should be here this coming week. Biggest problem here is coyotes wanting my dogs for dinner.

By the way, I'm not sure if your comments about WD-40 and oils were about me - I don't think so. I've never been a proponent of WD-40 - except as something you put on if you WANT it to rust. It's not even a very good penetrating oil, and certainly a terrible lubricant. I've been told it's mainly kerosene and perfume.

I think one of the comments was interesting - someone said they now know more about ignitions than they ever cared to know. I guess that's part of the purpose here, "To go where no man has gone before" - or cared to.

I hope we can declare peace between us.

My white flag is up!

These are the sites, good reading:

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/ignition.html

http://www.rmlautomotive.com/ignition.html

Sorry, I don't know how to make them links.

Rich (Don't have another one of those days.)

Oh, and I've been holding back, I didn't have to look it up, but it did take me a moment to think of the words - Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (why the word Specific" is used is beyond me.) Not normally needed with chassis dyno work as the engine's already in (mine did not show anything that technical, just speed and HP. I integrated a chart recorder to corelate HP, speed, HC, CO and RPM alongside a scope to help me - all information on the same sheet.) Mainly "before" vs "after", hopefully "after" is more. If not, you stay till it is (Yup, been there too - a few all nighters too.)
On an engine dyno it plays a big role - or can if it's too far out. The formula itself eludes me. The importance is essentially losses, windage, tighness etc. Typically .5 I believe. Still learning alot on the engine dyno. I doubt it's even possible to measure/calculate that on a chassis dyno, as there are so many other variables creating losses.
Sometimes it's really shocking to see engine dyno numbers, then compare it with what gets to the ground.

 

More lies so the facts just keep comming...

-----------------
It's a stone cold physical fact that a moving magnetic field will induce an electrical current flow from an electrical conductor.
It's a stone cold physical fact that current movement through a coil will produce a strong magnetic field.

The method of how that magnetic/ electrical/ chemical/ sub atomic process happens is still up for debate, so I'm not going to go into it here...
(like the electron/ holes movement theory. good way to get an argument started by people not smart enough to know they don't have all the answers and all speculation and theories are just that, theories and speculation...)
------------------

The Triumph guy and the other web site is making mistakes, and I think I still have a copy of the text book they are quoting.
They are making the common mistakes people do when they quote a text book they don't understand.
He is confusing electrical fields with magnetic fields.

Common for guys that never played with permanent magnets and a coil of wire...
(at 6 or 7 I built my own test equipment to masure magnetic field strength, voltage and amprage. stright out of, "The Boy Electrican" by Alphred P. Morgan, copyright 1913, 1929, 1940.)

If the iron core 'Stores Electrical Energy', then you shouldn't have a problem holding on to the leads of my little old telephone dynamo... (Fishin' tackle to you hillbillies!)
If the stated (incorrect) theory were true, There is no input current and no iron core so the leads to the coil can't be charged...

My push mower doesn't have any current input, any iron core in the ignition coil.
There is no current and no iron core to store the current even if it existed, so grabbing the spark plug wire should be perfectly safe... After all, it's just a magnet in the flywheel and a coil of wire attached to the spark plug...
Explain that one with the current incorrect theory in play...

Back to basic 300 year old electrical basics...

Basics 101, electrical inductance.
Inductance occurs when a conductor (Iron, copper, silver, anything that will conduct electricity) is passed through a magnetic field or a MOVING magnetic field is passed through the wire.
The magnetic field will excite or INDUCE (hence the term, Inductance) electrons to move and produce current.
If the magnetic field is intensified, MOVED faster, or the conductor is doubled over on it's self, the current produced is increased.

If you coil the wire around in a hoop, and rotate the magnets (Moving magnetic field) in the coil of wire for a period of time, you will produce a sustained current of electricity as long as the magnetic field is MOVING over the wire you will produce current.
This is how all generators, alternators, electric motors and transformers work.

If you took the primary windings and iron core completely out of an ignition coil and just left the secondary high voltage coil of wire...
And you could pass a great big strong magnet through that coil of wire at the exact time you wanted the cylinder to fire, you would fire the plug with no iron core 'Storing' energy.

No input current, no iron core, no 'Storing' energy...
----------------

Carrying around a huge, powerful magnet and trying to get the magnetic field to MOVE through the coil of wire at precisely the correct time is a real pain in the a$$, so we have a different way of doing it...

Basics 102, electro magnets.
When you apply an electrical current to a coil of wire, you will produce a magnetic field.
The strongest part of that magnetic field is the center of the coil of wire that is generating it, but it's mostly just a big ball of magnetic field lines around the coil.
(Ever seen that giant electrical magnet at the auto parts yard? Ever wonder how they could turn it on and off?)

If you want to focus the MAGNETIC field, add an iron core.
Iron is ferrous and will be attracted by a magnetic field. Once in that field, the iron core will focus the magnetic field lengthways the core.
The iron core isn't electrically charged, and in fact has no current at all passing though it.
(Iron can't store electrical energy anyway. It doesn't have a chemical makeup that will allow electrical storage)
It's simply focusing the MAGNETIC energy created by the charged coil of wire. (electromagnet)

When you apply power to the coil around the iron core, you produce an EXPANDING (Moving) magnetic field.
When you cut the power to that coil around the iron core, the magnetic field CONTRACTS (Moving).
Each time this magnetic field expands and contracts, the magnetic field is MOVING, but the electro magnet it's self is standing stationary.

Basics 103A, Transformers.
We now have an electro magnet with an iron core that can be switch on and off very quickly, but that doesn't do any good with firing the spark plugs. You can't fire plugs with a magnetic field, so there has to be another step in the process.

Stick with me a minute...
It has been found that an electro-magnetic field will expand and intensify to point 'X' with a 12 volt source and 100 turns on the winding.
We will call this the 'Primary' winding.

That magnetic field will be just as intense with an iron core, it just doesn't expand as much. The iron core helps focus and shape the magnetic field.
The magnetic field is still 'X' in intensity, it's just football shaped instead of round because of the interaction between the magnetic field and the iron core.
-----------------

Now, suppose you were to wrap a second winding around the first winding.
The second winding has 100 turns also, and is not connected to anything but a voltage tester.
We'll call this the 'Secondary' winding.

When the primary winding is charged, you will see voltage produced in the secondary winding because of the magnetic field moving outward through the secondary winding.
This voltage will be pretty weak compared to the input current of 12 volts.
That's because the magnetic field is slow to expand because of resistance in the primary wire, and because some of the magnetic field is lost to the earths magnetic field, ect...

When the voltage is cut off to the primary coil, the magnetic field collapses violently through the secondary winding, producing much more voltage than when the field expanded through the secondary winding.

Now, with the mechanics of the process laid out, we can move on to the output factors.
-----------------
Basics 103 B, Transformers.

With all external factors being the same,
Theoretically,
The magnetic field will not vary in intensity.
Magnetic field intensity 'Y' is going to excite 'X' amount of electrons in an inch of wire.
If you double the amount of wire, you will double the amount of current produced.
If you triple the amount of wire, you will triple the output, and so on.

So, now you have an electro magnet with an iron core.
Theoretically, discounting the impurities in the wire, interference from the earths magnetic field, relative position to any other large iron cores or electrical fields, ect, we'll have a look at the following...

If the Primary winding has 100 turns, and the secondary has 1,000 turns, you should increase the voltage by a factor of 10 (theoretically, discounting the above real world problems).
This is referred to as the 'Winding Ratio'.
With 12 volts in, times a winding factor of 10 (X 10) you should get 120 volts out of the secondary every time the primary winding is disconnected and the magnetic field collapses.

With a winding ratio of 100, a primary winding of 100 will have a secondary winding of 10,000.
With an input voltage of 12 volts, theoretically the output voltage would be 1,200 volts.

This is the template for the common 'Step Up' transformer.
If the Winding Ratio is reversed, the voltage will decrease, and that is called a 'Step Down' transformer.
-----------------

Real world application of induction.

The Ford magnetic trigger pick up coil is a coil of wire wrapped around a magnetic core.
When the Iron mass of the reluctor passes in close proximity to the magnetic core, it disrupts the magnetic field.
That disruption or MOVEMENT in the magnetic field induces a current discharge in the coil of wire.
That current is connected to the ignition module, and signals the module that it's time to fire the ignition.

(Remember the trouble shooting instructions I've posted 100 times before? 8-12 volts at the positive side of the ignition coil with the key in the 'Run' position...)
The ignition coil has had the primary coil charged and is waiting for the electrical connection to be broken (like breaker points opening in a point ignition)
When the signal from the magnetic trigger is received in the module, the module cuts the ignition coil's ground, and the electrical supply to the primary winding is lost, and the magnetic field it was supporting collapses through the secondary winding.
That's why the green coil wire goes directly to the ignition module, and no where else.

When the magnetic field collapses, the secondary (high voltage) coil is induced (Induction in action!) to create current.
When that current builds enough, and all else is correct in your ignition system, the voltage will jump the air gap at your spark plugs.

The electrical circuits are completely disconnected from each other, and the iron core in the ignition coil doesn't 'Store' anything.
The Iron core just focuses and shapes the magnetic field for maximum impact with the secondary windings.

If you could pass a magnet close enough and fast enough to the secondary windings with nothing else there, you could fire the spark plugs, just like every push mower in the country for the last 50 years...
And the magnetos did for the tractors and automobiles for the first 50 years of the last century (20th).

I see you have cracked a book in the past couple of days...

"Specific" because you have to match it to the Mass Air Flow and Specific Air Flow at any given RPM, Horse power out put, torque output, ect.

We record,
Mass Air Flow,
Total Volume,
Density, O2 content, Air Mass Velocity, Temp & Humidity.

Individual intake runner velocities are mapped for time, speed, volume...

Fuel injectors cycling time and sometimes single injector volumes are mapped (up to 16 injectors at once).

Fuel Consumption, both total and any given point,

Ambient temp, engine coolant temp, intake temp, air box temp, cylinder head temp, and exhaust temp, both general and at each runner.

Exhaust gas analysis. O2, Hydrocarbon, CO, trace gasses and heavy metals counts in a variety of ways...

RPM, horse power & Torque at any given point.

Engine vibration and block stress testing (twist, warp) along with the usual knock sensors...
The crank is indexed front and rear with sensors for longitudinal distortion (twist).
We can do the camshaft also, but I've only done it a few times.
(Not much point in it unless you are testing a chevy, and chevy doesn't make large racing engines. It's that screwed up Chevy 'Drive in the front, Load in the back camshaft design...)

Ignition firing voltage, amperage, discharge duration, total cycle time.

Boost pressure both before and after each compressor, and on a long compressor, like a GMC 6-71, we take pressure readings in at least 4 places before and after.

Normally all mapped at 4 times a second, but we can do up to 400 times a second if needed.

Think about NASCAR...
First you tune the engine for maximum horse power. Say, 750 HP @ 7,500 Rpm with '1.2' for Mean fuel consumption.

Then you tune the engine and it cranks out , say, 748 HP @ 7,500 RPM, but the Mean fuel consumption is only '0.8'
You are only off 2 horse power, but your fuel lasts 5 laps longer...

If Specific fuel consumption is 0.9 at 750 HP @ 7,500 RPM,
And you tune so you get 0.7 Specific at 748 HP @ 7,450 RPM, you can advise the driver to keep at 7,450 unless he's in a sh*t fight where the extra two horse power are needed...
And He'll get another 5 laps before he needs to pit...

Five extra laps between EACH fuel stop in the average NACAR race is equal to 22 laps further by the end of the race.
OR...
Everyone else has to pit on green, but you have 5 extra laps and you take the lead in the race.
There is almost ALWAYS an accident after green flag pits (guys trying to push cold tires and everyone bunched up and trying for exit position).

You get to pit as the race leader under yellow and your lead is safe while you take on MORE fuel, have more time to do it (the field has slowed down for the yellow) and warm your FOUR new tires up under yellow so you are ready to kick a$$ when the green drops....

It's late, I'm tired, and it's pointless to try and teach pigs to sing...

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

Electrical fields different than magnetic fields? When current passes through a wire it produces a magnetic field around it. Maybe you mean by magnetic field one from a permanent magnet that already has the molecules aligned vs one that was induced by a current?

Yes, electricity flowing as electron flow vs hole flow can be proven either way. Without hole flow, it's impossible to describe how a semiconductor works.
Same like is light energy just enegy in waves or a particle? Can be proven both ways easily.
Man still has an awful lot of things to explain. Incuding why Hanoi Jane hasn't been knocked off by an ex POW.

You are right about me cracking a book, but it hasn't been in the last few days. I started working with the engine dyno a couple of years ago - 3? maybe, that's when I asked "what's this BSFC?"

You've taken the definition one step beyond where I was, thanks. I never related BSFC to extra lap times. I've only used it as an efficiency factor - seen it change with subtle changes to oil drip and windage. Saw it way off on one - turned out to be a very slightly bent crank absorbing extra energy. That would have ended up as a disaster on the salt flats where it was going. Not just slower but Kaboom!

Looks like we are in agreement, on Kettering systems the energy from the +12 volts rushes into the primary when the points close, or the module turns on. (Easy to demontrate the coil holds the energy - wire a coil and condenser with clip leads to 12 volts - note the spark gets big when you DISCONNECT it, not connect it.)
Then when the time is "right," the points OPEN to actually create the spark - or the module turns off. Initially when the points were closed (or module on) the magnetic field builds up in the coil - energy waiting to go someplace.
Once we open the points the field collapses, faster than it built up in the first place (only because charging it's limited by the resistance of the 12 supply wire and the ability of the battery to feed it - internal battery resistance.)
The time when the points are closed is called Dwell time, or charge time.

We again agree on turns ratio - 1000 turns on the secondary to 100 turns on the primary would give a gain of 10:1.
Now for the kicker - typical turns ratios on coils are maybe 250 - 350 on a points type coil. Some with electronic systems have up to 500:1. But that doesn't sound right does it? 500 x 12 volts only would be 6000 volts. But we see 30,000 to 45,000 volts all the time with good ignitions (open circuit.)

So how?

The crux - notice the bottom of the secondary is tied to the primary top. (Not the outer case like lots of folks assume - you can safely hold the coil in your hand while it's running - if the insulation is good. If it's not, you'll know quickly.) That's called an auto transformer (not auto for automotive but auto feedback, an electronics term.)
When the magnetic field collapses it's also inducing a high voltage in the primary at the same time, as they are in such close proximity - typically 300-450 volts will be seen in the primary - in a "pulse" shaped form - see it by looking at the primary pattern with a scope. That's why when you touch the primary you feel a jolt, but if it was just straight 12 volts you don't really feel anything.
That extra "boost" in the primary is now multiplied by the turns ratio, less losses, and bingo - high voltage in the secondary.
You want the magnetic field to collapse as fast as possible, that's where the condenser comes in to play. It prevents the higher "kickback" voltage in the primary from jumping back across the points, not only burning them but if the arc were to jump, then the points are electrically connected again, thus putting it in the charge mode again, building, not collapsing the field.
Condensers - actually called capacitors are measured in Farads, usually micro Farads.

Now the next step - The iron core helps to provide more "room" to store the magnetic field, (and concentrating it like you said,) allowing more energy to be stored (it takes energy to align all the iron molecules or "magnetize" it.) But - now that creates a problem too - the iron doesn't give up it's magnetic field near as fast as just a magnetic field in air, plus there's more energy in there to extract. The storage capacity and concentration factor is a plus (spark duration,) the fact it's slower is a minus (rise time.)
The iron radically increased the inductance of the coil, measured in Henrys or micro Henrys.
Also the relationship between the coil inductance and the capacitance in the condenser forms a tuned or resonant circuit. That resonant frequency is the speed at which the energy will "dump." That resonant frequency is essentially calculated as XC = XL, where C is capacitance in Farads and L is inductance in Hernrys.
(For those that care, study tuned circuits/resonance/capacitance/inductance in electronics books.)
Any EE's watching can verify it - but we've probably put most everybody to sleep by now.

The more iron core, or the more inductance, the slower the output voltage will rise, but you actually have much more energy to release - good for spark duration, bad for rise time (frequency.)

The E cores have less iron in toto, that's why they work so well - output rise time is improved considerably. Since electronic ignitions, such as Duraspark II and HEI have current limiters to keep the magnetic field from oversaturating, the coil can be fed 12 volts instead of the old style 6-8 volts. Feeding 12 volts helps charge it faster and gets more energy in to be released later for the spark. The rise time is faster - good - and the duration can be much longer - also good.

All conventional "electronic" systems operate the same way, whether Durasparks, HEI, Pertronics, Accel, Chrysler, Sonsabitchie, Mercedes, Toyota, --------. Even Yugo and Bubba and Yahoo's.

Now for a completly different, yet somwhat similar type ignition system - Capacitive Discharge - CD.
Instead of energy being stored in a magnetic field in a coil, the energy is stored in a big capacitor - the "C", then at the right time it's Discharged (the D) into the coil.
The coil is simply used as a transformer, but it still utilizes the auto transformer effect to multiply the output beyond the simple turns ratio - at least most do.
Capacitors can release stored energy faster than the magnetic field can in this case.

So - the capacitor is charged with about 400 volts (note the approximate voltage induced by the "kickback" voltage in the Kettering sytems.) Some systems use as high as 1000 volts to store in the capacitor.
So - 12 volts must be converted to the 400 volts for primary use. A simple inverter does the trick.
The inverter "chops" the 12 volts, feeds it to a simple step up transformer, then rectifies it back to DC at about 400 volts or whatever they want. Then that's fed to the capacitor to charge it up. Since effectively the resonant frequency at that point is much higher, it can charge the capacitor much faster than waiting for a magnetic field to charge in the Kettering system. At the higher voltage less amperage is needed for the same amount of energy too (P=EI.) Still at this point the coil has seen nothing.
Then, when it's time - determined by whatever trigger method is used, it "dumps" it's energy to the coil where it gets multiplied by the turns ratio and the auto transformer effect. So it's really using the coil as a transformer, not a mag amp like the Kettering system.

I never really thought about it till now, but that's obviously how MSD does theirs. There's simply not enough time to rebuild the magnetic field in a coil, discharge, recharge, discharge again it several times in one cylinder's firing cycle - but the capacitive discharge can do it easily. So obviously the MSD HAS TO BE A TRUE CD.
There, I answered my own question! Duh!

Years ago I had the opportunity to get involved with a German company for some dyno testing (chassis.) They wanted before and after readings on their CD still in development. They wanted me to install it on American cars and track the difference in HP and exhaust gasses, before and after reading. I got customers to volunteer their cars, and the company paid an incentive of I think $100 to the owners. A company tech stood by and made notes too.
They used an air core coil - I know for sure it was air core - it was hollow! On most cars it was a definate improvement in performance. On a scope pattern it showed an unbelievable rise time, but very short duration. In fact it was just a quick blip on the screen.
I had to use a lab scope to see much, and the pattern really wasn't there long enough to see things like turbulence and how the plug was handling it. It fired only once.
It sure packed a whollup though - in air it could jump a long ways with a really fat spark - but that's really only good for county fairs. It's how it really works with a plug on the end that's important.
It tested great, but the failure rate was terrible! It seemed like 1 out of three or four self destructed during the test. They needed more work to do on the product - they needed something to keep the smoke inside their box - it kept coming out! It wasn't due to arcing in the cap, or the coils, just unreliable circuitry in the box.
When it ran it did do wonders, power increased, emissions went down, starting was terrific. Even flooding it badly had no affect on the ease of starting. That was when it finished the 20 minute test, lots failed before that.

I seem to remember their name in German translated to Hercules or something like that.
The tip off was hollow coils - ever seen anything of them? I've always wondered how they ended up.

Now something I wonder about. MSD fires several times at lower speeds, they say it helps the lean condition experienced in modern day engines. If it helps at idle, and mid range, I wonder what it would do at higher speeds. Obviously there is far less time to hold a spark at high speeds, but I wonder what if the duration could be cut back for each firing cycle, and at the same time the number of ionizing pulses could be kept multiple? Possibly an air coil to get the speed up? I'm sure I'm not the first to wonder.

Trend now is leaning to DIS, giving lots of time to charge, but still it's based on the Kettering principle.

Notice I avoided spelling Porch, Poerch, Push, Punk, Perch, or whatever the hell it is.

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

my wee-wee is bigger than yur wee-wee!!

one of ya'll should grow up and just let the post die....if you guys want to argue this much take it to email or private mail on the board

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

Jeep'n Greg - If you are so bored with it, why do you keep on reading it?

We are trying to have an intelligent conversation here - without hatred and insults.

Maybe if you already know all this you could explain it?

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

Hey TR - you mentioned something that I haven't heard of before:
"Individual intake runner velocities are mapped for time, speed, volume... "

Is that on the dyno or flow bench? Flow bench I can see, but the on the dyno? Maybe I misread what you meant.
If yes. How do you do that? Do you have a special manifold equipped with sensors or is there a way of slipping individual sensors down the runners? Maybe by measuring the temp of the runners?

We measure individual exhaust temps, but that's easy, just thermocouples in the headders.

 

Amen

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

ok i started reading this the other day and i thought rrich was a smartass, and tr was god ignition wise that is. then i read smore, and i realized that none of the nonsense mattered unless i wanted a whole lot more horse power and rpm's than my little ujoints could handle, then rr apologized and that was civil, and tr stuck the sword deeper true dick style, now i am just reading it cause i just want to see where it goes baaa baaa baaaa
soggysod"the sheep"
as the late chris farley said "why dont you just shut your yapper!"

 

yeah ....but are round headlights better than rectangular?

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

If you don't like it DON"T READ IT!!! Personally I find this discussion considerably interesting and I *am* learning from it. They seem to be keeping it somewhat civil. It's not degraded into insults and until that point is reached please just shut up if you don't like it and clog up the thread with complaints.

I like reading a good debate, and this is one of the better ones I've seen I do believe. With plenty of useful tech info floating around and insight into how some stuff works.

TR/RR, keep it up guys, this is interesting...

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

All I can say is, WOW! And if the moderator for this board (is it LEVE?) delete's this one I will personaly hunt him down and shoot him like a rabbid dog. I have never seen so much good info in one thread. To the whiners who don't like it, STFU and leave.

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

I'm with Krabysniper and everyone else who's found a relatively untapped wealth of info in this poist. While on the surface it appears to be just two guys arguing over who knows the most, the knowledge that they are taking time to share in their posts has really opened my eyes to the stuff I really don't think about every day (even as a "professional wrench"). I mean the ignition systems on cars/jeeps is one of the things that is usually taken for granted until the thing craps out on you... then you sit there and scratch your head as to why the thing puked!!! keep the flow goin'!!

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

It's like a car wreck on the freeway.

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

Quite right... Just gotta look at the carnage

But seriously there is a lot of info here.

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

Arron,
If you see Vince Neil(actually Vince Whorton) again, Tell him I said Hi.
We were roomates at an Animal House type rental right after high school(we both went to Charter Oak HS, in Glendora Ca).
I stuck up for him one night when he was gonna get his butt kicked by a couple of guys, and we were freinds after. I dont think my Dating his X, a few years down the road helped the freindship much, but we were stil talking the last time I saw him at the Long Beach grand Prix where he was getting ready to run in the Celebrity mini indy competition.
Small world isnt it.
By the way I would have had to purge nearly all of the memories of my post Navy, drunken, troubled years, to make room for the ignition info, so I was unable to down load it into my memory. Im affraid Ill just have to ask if/when I need ignition help in the future.

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

**Hey TR - you mentioned something that I haven't heard of before:
"Individual intake runner velocities are mapped for time, speed, volume... "**

As far as I know, us and a couple of NASCAR engine builders (and the big three) are the only ones doing it.

Drill a hole in the runner, thread it or attach (weld, epoxy, ect) a threaded boss.
Screw in a heated mass air flow sensor.
If you know the diameter of the runner (we emulsion hone them out to specific size, so we do), you can extrapolate the volume, speed, and movement times.
Handy in figuring if the airflow is to tortured, or the runners are too big or too small with out doing a dozen different intakes and testing all of them for gross horsepower.

Tortured air flow will have very slow times getting to peak velocity.
Too small of runners will have density drop.
Too large of runners will be sluggish on both ramp up speed and density will not drop.

**yeah ....but are round headlights better than rectangular?**

'EVERYONE' knows that square head lights are like GM HEI ignitions and those annoying megaphone exhaust tips...
They will all add 2,000 horse power, stop leaks, squeaks, smelly holes, rotten toes, and are guaranteed to make child birth an absolute pleasure!...
Don't you keep up with the 'X-SPURTS'....?

I must have mistyped the word 'Current' instead of the word 'Voltage' somewhere, and I've received 13 private posts and 3 emails about it!
Seems people ARE paying attention and keeping up...
Most of the messages were, "I know this was a typo, but you said...."

There were a couple of hate mails.
I can't put much stock in a man that hangs his entire self worth on a typo...
(Let he that is with perfect spelling and without typos cast the first stone...)

Most of you know I just bang away at the keys, and don't use reference material very often (yes, I have several years of wiring diagrams for all kinds of sh*t in my head...)
I don't proof read, I do use a spell checker, so what ever IT decided, you get.

H8! Long time no see!
What are you? on the lamb or sumpin'!?

**If you see Vince Neil(actually Vince Whorton) again, Tell him I said Hi.**

I should see Vince at the Sacramento show if I have to go... He likes to hang in our booth or the BDS booth.
We both have large lounges built into the trailers, and he likes to sit in there and loaf in the air conditioning.
He's getting old and fat like the rest of us!
(I hate California! The only good thing about California is there are so may ways to leave it.... Not like New Jersey...)

**By the way I would have had to purge nearly all of the memories of my post Navy, drunken, troubled years, to make room for the ignition info, so I was unable to down load it into my memory. Im affraid Ill just have to ask if/when I need ignition help in the future. **

Yup, I know the feeling!
I stopped reading fiction several years back when I realized I could still remember the names, plots and a lot of details of novels I read when I was in the 5th and 6th grade...
I figure there is only so much memory, and I don't want to waste it on crap, like daytime television, boy bands that sound like girls, who shot J.R., Ect... (that last one will really put a date on you!)

Now, for ONE more try...

An Ignition coil is a step up transformer.
It CONVERTS 12 volts @ 15 amps into 20,000 volts @ 150 mA.
(Converts through the principle of induction)

It does NOT store energy. The primary circuit has a flowing current to ground, and there for can NOT 'store' electrical energy. The coil has no means by which to 'store' energy.
(Storage of electrical energy is normally an electro-chemical process, like in a battery, NOT in a coil of wire other than a super conductor, which doesn't have anything to do with ignitions so won't be discussed by me on this BBS)

The electrical current is routed through a transformer primary side to develop a magnetic field. That is all.

When that current stops, the magnetic field collapses and acts on the secondary windings to make the output.
If the transformer had 'Stored' electrical energy, the electro-magnetic field would collapse slower, weakening the secondary induction generated current...

You do not want a 'Taper Effect' in the primary windings, you want the electrical current to stop in it's tracks (so to speak), so the collapse of the magnetic field is as violent as possible.
If the primary current 'Tapered Off', it would defeat the entire purpose of the transformer.

That's why high current capacity, fast on/off power switching transistors are so crucial.
Low current capacity means the coil gets starved and the magnetic field will suffer for it.
Ramp 'On' means shorter primary saturation times. The sooner full current flow is reached, the sooner the magnetic field is at maximum. This means a lot at rpm when saturation times are shortened.
Ramp 'Off' means reduced induction effect and less transformer secondary output (usable Spark Energy suffers)

A battery stores energy by converting electrical energy into a chemical storage medium.
A transformer has no such properties, and can NOT store any electrical energy.
----------------

As near as I can tell, the 'Idea' that electrical energy could be stored in a transformer with an iron core was first printed in "How To Make Electrical Devices & Storage Batteries", by P.B Warwick in 1901.
His electrical theories were discounted, and the book was revised. The second edition was called, "How To Make & Use The Storage Battery" in 1903.

The man knew his stuff about electro-chemical processes, but took great liberties in trying to describe electrical devices and current management.
The 1901 book was used as standard teaching curriculum for 'Electrical Engineers' at the time, and the book, although the content was wrong, was used until the second world war in collages around the world.
The Brown & Sharp study discounted may of his explanations in 1904, 1909 & 1925, but this is one of those stories that have been told so may times it's taken as fact now....
(I'm not sure the term, 'Urban Myth' applies here...)

The 1901 book is listed as 'Reference Material' in one of the current electrical engineers' and basic electronics texts that I have here published in 1986! (the thing that wouldn't die!)

The 1901 book was used in the first 'US ARMY Electrical Engineers' circulum in 1919!! and wasn't discontinued until Brown & Sharps' second set of extensive testing in 1925 for the military.

This was an argument started by someone selling personal opinion as fact.
It has evolved into a text book theory vs. dyno room and real world testing.

GM HEI is easier to install for the automotive un-educated (until now, I have the harness that is the great equalizer) and they have gone BILLIONS of miles without much maintenance.
So has the Motorcraft DuraSpark.

As to the original question of GM HEI vs. Ford DuraSpark, Ford DuraSpark wins hands down in all important areas of spark energy and efficiency.

As to the original question of GM HEI vs. Ford DuraSpark....
...What ignition you should use in what vehicle, that depends entirely on what ignition you have now...
If you have the Motorcraft/ DuraSpark, the upgrade is cheaper, faster, and keeps you with an ignition that was designed specifically for your vehicle, and gives you an ignition that is statistically better and at the least, proven equal to the GM HEI.
---------------

If you are upgrading from Prestolite or Delco breaker points, there are arguments either way.
I prefer Motorcraft/ DuraSpark because of controlled, real world testing and an impartial look at the statistics.

Someone may pick the GM HEI because of limited mechanical knowledge or abilities at the time, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Someone may pick the GM HEI because they have one at hand and know (roughly) how to install it.
There is nothing wrong with that either.

No one should ask a question, and get an HEI sold as the 'ONLY' solution, especially if they already have the Motorcraft/ DuraSpark ignition like the original poster did...

For those of you that have kept up with my previous posts, you know I've left out two very important parts...
Just to see if anyone was keeping up...
So far, no one has asked the right question or made the correct statements, so I'm wondering....

Now, what does this have to do with any of your ignition systems. Nothing
Your ignition coil will work exactly the same way it has been for the past 11-teen years, and will continue to do so no matter what side of this fence you fall off of... (That is a GOOD thing!)

As to the best quote on this entire thread...

WhompBigJeep wrote,
**Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.**

..."Look Ma! I got a ribbon!"....

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

Thanks for responding on the intake mapping. Neat idea, I can see how that would make things easier than swapping out manifolds till you get the right combination. You could see if it needs more shaping or not really fast, or if you've done too much. I'm sure it would take quite a few runs to get a good "feel" for it before it becomes useful, but then, like everything else, it would come into play.

Interesting phenomenon, and I'm still experiencing it on the engine dyno - there is so much data available that it can easily become overwhelming. I'd like to run it more often, but I'm now about 200 miles away so I don't get all that much time with it. And, I really don't want to go back in the business. (But then, I wouldn't pass up a chance to have a dyno in my back yard now either - I'd have to keep it secret.)

I like your attitude about California, too bad more people don't have that opinion. Then California would become even nicer, all the foriegners from all over the country and all over world would leave. Even if those that are here didn't leave, the great influx would stop. Somehow people just don't believe it's so bad, they just keep on coming. Please spread the word.
I'd sure like to see the televising of the Rose Parade and Rose Bowl Game to stop. Don't all the people snowed-in watching it know that we actually film it during the summer? That sunshine and the barely dressed girls were filmed months ago.

You mentioned:
"The electrical current is routed through a transformer primary side to develop a magnetic field. That is all.
When that current stops, the magnetic field collapses and acts on the secondary windings to make the output."

That's exactly what I meant by storage. The "collapsing" magnetic field is what reacts on the secondary windings quickly to create the high voltage spike that is used for the spark. That magnetic field was the stored energy, the only thing that makes the actual spark, the battery is disconnected at that point.
It's not the inrush of current or the "building" of the field that we are looking for in the Kettering system, but the "collapse" of the field. The inrush time, or charging up time is called dwell (the packing of energy into the magnetic field.) All the energy released was all the energy contained in that magnetic field = storage (at that time the points/module are open/off, so no primary current, or current from anywhere else is happening.) Sorry if my term "storage" made it confusing. The spark happens when the points open or the module turns OFF.

CD's are just the opposite. The energy is "stored?" for lack of a better word, built up, assembled, or whatever a better word for it is, in a large capacitor, then that energy is released at the proper time into the coil, which now is being used solely as a transformer. In that case the energy was stored as an electrostatic charge rather than a magnetic field. The coil (or transformer) did not see anything, current or magnetic field until it was time to make the spark. The energy simply is "passed through" the coil, the turns ratio multiplies the voltage into usable energy to create the spark.
A capacitor can be charged and discharged much, much faster than a magnetic field. And depending on the voltage and size of the capacitor it can hold far more energy. The other good thing about a capacitor is at "release" time the current is highest at the beginning of the discharge, helping considerabvly with the rise time. Where a transformer, coil, inductor, is just the opposite. The peak current lags the voltage. The collapse of the field tends to induce the field again, slowing it down. That's why the condenser across the points to ground in a points system.

That's why the CD system works so well.

As far as the potential output voltage and spark "burn time" of Duraspark II vs. HEI they are virtually the same. They both run on a full 12 volts without an ignition resistor in the circuit - like points or Duraspark I do. They both have the same higher voltage potential (open circuit) of around 45,000 volts, both have spark duration "burn" times of approximate 2.5 milliseconds, both have rise times about equal times, and both have the current limiters to keep the coil from oversaturating.

In fact, if you look at them both on a scope you cannot tell the difference between the 2. As you know, a scope tells you exactly what's going on voltage wise. If one or the other had higher current across the ionized plug gap, which is the same resistance for either ignition, you would surely see it.

But I'm totally in agreement about the Prestolite ignitions - or anything else they made, alternators etc. They leave an awful lot to be desired, to put it midly.

Now what I wonder about something. I may be wrong, and I know you'll correct me. Seems like you are recomending the E coil in conjunction with the larger cap to hold the higher voltage, but what about the module?
To get the full benefit of the E coil it needs to see the full 12 volts and full current available, where using it with the Duraspark I module that uses an ignition resistor it doesn't.

The Duraspark II module doesn't use the resistor so it drives the E coil harder, and it has the current limiter in it to "help" prevent oversaturation of the coil (a hindrance.) (OK, I've got to here - so it's more like HEI.)

That would also help with the "leave the key on, engine off, too long and you let the smoke out" problem.

It's an easy conversion from Duraspark I to Duraspark II, just a connector change and eliminate the resistor.
It doesn't need the starter "kicker" circuit since it already runs on 12 volts.

Then it would convert the whole ignition over to the Duraspark II system (sorry, I have to again,) making it just like Ford made to compete with GM.

Since you make the harnesses, and apparently do a damn good job of it too, that would be right up your alley.

I still haven't recieved my MSD yet. I've got several vehicles to try it on, including replacing an HEI to see what happens.

Sacramento? What show? I need to go to Sacto one of these days, I'd like to meet you there if I can arrange my schedule. Where / when? OK, I'll buy the beer - at least the first 2 rounds.
Rich

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

This was one of the best threads (read informative) that I've read in a long time. I'm glad to see that RRich was not a 'piece of corn that won't flush' (private joke that TR and I understood about a prior issue). It all came down to 'a mis-interpretation of terms'. I'm not kissing anyones a$$ by saying that this was a very good thread for me to read and I appreciate the fact that these two 'duelers' kept it civil and open. I don't see how anyone would not get some important info out of this thread, even if they aren't building loads of HP in their Jeeps. It was a good lesson in basics (with some entertainment as well

), and for that I thank you both. Bret

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

Hubeid, I agree with you about the informative, but not about the civil. I think that TR was out of line to accuse RRich of purposely lying in order to confuse newbies. I don't believe that RRich was doing any such thing. Besides, it's impossible to divine his motive, and I sure haven't seen any signs of malice in his correspondence.

Also it got pretty low when TR started throwing out penis challenges. There's no cause for that, even if he did have a bad day.

Sadly, one of the unwanted side affects of this thread is that it's going to be quite a while before anybody answers anything but the simplest of electrical questions. Witness the question about an oil pressure gauge that went unanswered for a day or more. I was pretty sure I knew the answer to that at the time, but I wasn't about to post it until I could make double-damn sure, which I didn't have the time to do then. (For all I know, Jeep COULD have wired it the other way some year for some strange reason.) As a result the poster had to wait a long time for a simple answer.

It's good to see that the heat has dissipated, and the light is returning, but I think it was pretty dark there for a while.

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

As far as being affraid to answer a question because of this thread.

That I'm sure was not ever TR or anyone elses intention. The point was that if you are attempting to answer the question not to profess being "god" unless you are "double damn sure." I think that any info, incorrect or not, can be very useful if people realize that there is a posibility of error in the responses they are recieving.

IMHO, This thread should serve as much as a warning to treat any info with the proverbial grain of salt, rather than just jumping lock stock and barrel on something that someone tells you is a sure fire fix.

 

Re: More lies so the facts just keep comming...

You're right about the grain of salt. I hadn't thought of that. Everybody should know that the only guarantee with free advice is that it's worth every penny you pay for it.

I just don't want to be drawn into some battle over semantics, complete with name calling. Like this business about a coil storing electricity. It doesn't store electricity, but it DOES store ENERGY, that gets turned INTO electricity when the magnetic field collapses. Whether a quantum physicist would explain it exactly that way is immaterial - it's a good enough model to explain everything WE need to know about it. And it's what I was taught in automotive school 40 years ago.

And I don't want to be called a malicious liar by the quantum phycisist when I'm doing my best to explain something, even if I'm not exactly right. I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong, although nitpicking irritates me no end. And if I'm wrong, I want the correct answer, not slander.