[kutyafal]

Well the welder is progressing although, I think I just voided the warranty! /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif I've bypassed the regulator by wiring a 10 gage wire directly to the field brush. The exciter diode is also removed. So now in theory the rotor should get the full 12V without regulation and the output woltage can increase relative to the RPM. I've connected my battery charger on the manual 2A setting, positive to the field, negative to ground on case. Then I connected my multi meter to the positive output and negative ground on case. I spun the rotor with my electric drill at about 400 RPM and measured around 5-6 volts. Somehow, I expected more but we'll see. I don't know if the voltage suppose to increase in a linear fashion or maybe logaritmically. Now I'm onto fabbing a bracket to mount it. That looks to be more of a challenge! /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif Anyway, it's progress. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

The picures:
http://www.webphotos.com/member/7612/143804.jpg
http://www.webphotos.com/member/7612/143805.jpg

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R

 

[LEVE]

kutyafal, I sure wish you could change your User ID to something easier to spell, like BOB... esay to type forward and backwards! It seems you're makeing very good progress. The RPM/Voltage ratio that you encountered seems about right. In most cases with on board welders a hand throttle is adapted to bump up the RPM's to make up for the increase in the load.

Have you thought about a larger Pulley ratio on the alternator to increase the RPM/Volts ratio?

If so, is this a feasable upgrade given room under the hood?

Thanks for the pictures and updates, they will help us all go where you've gone ahead.

 

[kutyafal]

LEVE, I feel for you on the spelling. That ID is part Hungarian and it's one of the hardest languages to learn. I tried to change it but the board won't let you. I'm thinking of signing up again with a different email so I can chose another ID. First though, we have to find me a suitable one. Well let's see, I'm Hungarian and a jeeper so any ideas? /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Regarding the RPM, the V pulley on this alternator is the same diameter as the serpentine one on the existing alternator. I need to find out what ratio is that compared to the crank shaft pulley. I was thinking it's around 3:1 which could mean around 9000 RMP for the alternator at 3000 RPM engine speed. By my estimates this would give me around 130 volts at that speed which should be enough. Does anybody have info on the crank/pulley ratio?

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R

 

[kutyafal]

Well I did some more calculations:
crank pulley = 6.5 inches
alt. pulley = 2.5 inches
ratio = 2.6:1
volts at 400 RMP = 6V
alt. pulley RMP at 3000 engine RMP: 2.6 * 3000 = 7800
volts at 3000 RMP: 7800 / 400 * 6 = 117V (assuming linear relationship)
If this is true it's not bad I guess. Smooth high frequency DC current, ~100V at 140A ... mmmmmmm /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

Now as for the mounting I attached a picture of what I'm looking at. I'm thinking of using a 3/16 thick vertical plate with ears welded on to bolt to top and bottom compressor ears. A smaller plate with ears for the alternator would bolt to this with some slack so the position and angle of the alternator can be fine tuned. Then use a top extention to which the adjuster bracket piece mounts. Whaddayallthink?

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R

 

[Jay Anger]

I am wondering if it will be a problem if the alt gets submerged in water being mounted that low. I see by the photo that it gets alot of mud and gunk splattered up in there. I am not an alt guru, but I have found the deeper I get in the mud and water, the more often I have to swap out my lifetime warranty starter. Will this be the case with an alt mounted that low?



When you come to the end of your road, get out and lock the hubs in . . .

 

[kutyafal]

Well, here's the scoop. The factory alternator is mounted even lower. It has been in mud before and it's still fine but I don't plan to dunk it more if I can help it. I wondered too how they clean themself being that they're full of holes for air (and mud) circulation. I guess as long as you give it a good rinse after the ride... Anyway, here's a picture of the mount I'm building. It's still in progress. Should be done over the weekend.

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R

 

[Jay Anger]

I was curious about that. I know on the mid 80's Grands and Waggies, the alt was the lowest component on the front of the engine. I was never impressed with that design.

I found some really reasonable prices (under $200) on the Bendix 30E10-1-B 400amp welding generator in the Surplus Center catalog. At 7" dia x 17" in length and 70lbs, it would be pretty tricky to mount, but would be possible to do it in the area where a smog pump would go on the V8. My greatest concern is exposure to the elements and heat off the exhaust manifolds. The heat factor is easily reduced, but the elements are much harder to deal with. Can you imagine having 400amps out on the trail?!?!?!?



When you come to the end of your road, get out and lock the hubs in . . .

 

[kutyafal]

400 Amps? For what? From what I read the high frequency DC of even a 140-160 Amp unit is enough to weld 3/8 steel single pass and 1/2 with some beveling! I just burn through stuff as it is with a 80 Amp baby MIG for gods sake! /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif Not because it's so powerful either... /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R

 

[251]

with 400 amps, you wouldnt have to rev your engine to 3000 rpm to weld and it wouldnt be full load on the alt when ever you use it.

probably no differnece, just a litel longer lived

OzarkJeep

"Bare foot girls, dancing in the moon light..."

 

[Guest]

The only thing I'm worried about would be the possibility that the welder would be switched "on" with the motor not running. If you had 12V going to it and it was not spinning, it seems to me that you could ruin the alternator (or is it now just a generator) pretty quickly! Just a thought...you might want to draw your 12V from something that doesn't work unless the engine is running (where is CJDave and his oil pressure switch now?)

FJ

Moneyless, Will weld for jeep accessories.

 

[kutyafal]

Good point on the reduced load with 400A. But it's all theoretical since I only have 140A, so I have to make do with that. We'll see. As far as the alternator getting 12V while not spinning it's not an issue since the rotor windings are pretty heavy-duty and can - and does during operation - handle continuous current. I've tested it by connecting the 12V to the input and walking away preparing other things and all it does is creates the magnetic field and sits there. In all the time while I tested it like this it didn't get warm or anything. By the way here's a picture of the adjusting mechanism I made up for one side and same will be for the other side. I figured out that since the main pivot hole of the alt. will be mounted to the bottom of the plate and the adjuster hole of the alt. will be diagonally towards the fender the pulleys will not change distance when the alt. is rotated so it won't work for tensioning the belt. So I decided to make the hole bracket pivot via the top bolts which works exactly the right way to maximize adjustability for belt tensioning.

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R

 

[Jay Anger]

Yes - precisely. The peak (400amp) is achieved at 3100 r.p.m. With the proper ratio, it would be possible to weld at 125+ at idle. Besides, as OZJ eluded to, it is DESIGNED to be a welding generator and would have a longer life (provided the elements don't get it.) Also with going with a welding generator, your duty cycle will be much higher than a standard alternator - and I would think your cutting abilities will be greater also. (If CJDave is lurking around, this is about the point where he jumps in.)

Another thing you may consider on the alternator setup - you might think about placing a "reactor" or resistance coil somewhere in your setup to reduce the possibility of back arcing and burning up the alt brushes, etc. I know for a fact that the brushes in a standard alt are not designed to hold up to the rigors of heavy welding - if they were, then there would be several welders on the market with standard alternators in them! It would seem that a $30 investment in a reactor would go a long way after all the time an energy you have put in this project already.

I am not trying to pee in your wheaties here with suggesting the 400amp. I am just throwing out another possibility to be hashed around by the board for personal knowledge in future upgrades.



When you come to the end of your road, get out and lock the hubs in . . .

 

[kutyafal]

Can you give a little more info on that "reactor" or resistance coil setup? What is it exatly and where to get it? Can I make one?

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R

 

[Jay Anger]

Same thing - two different names.

It is just a coil that stabalizes the arc by decreasing the fluctuations in amperage and voltage so you get an even arc - and it will help you keep from burning your brushes up. They are also available in the Surplus Center catalog, and I am sure you can find them locally at Arcet Equipment Company (120 Industrial Drive in Fredericksburg (540)898-5363 or 8399 Euclid Ave, in Manassas (703)631-0532.) That's where we got our welding supplies for the Auto Hobby Shop on base in Quantico. I don't recall if they have them or not, but I know they could order it in. Make sure you tell them you are BUILDING or REPAIRING a welder, or they will sell you a $300 self contained unit. They should be between $30 and $70. You might even try Cash Herman or Creative Welding and Fabrication both in Woodbridge. If I remember correctly, they repair welders at both of those places. I am sure you can make one - you can make anything with the right equipment, supplies, and knowledge - but I don't have a clue how to.

BTW - that 400 amp unit pushes 30 volts too. That's the other major difference. Your single pass penetration would be much greater as well. With a few more bucks, it could be used as one heck of a source of electricity off the beaten path. It's just an idea I have been kicking around. Around here, a 150 amp alt is about the same price as this unit thanks to the low rider crowd. Seems like a much better buy if it holds up to the elements.

Still waiting for CJDave to jump in . . . .



When you come to the end of your road, get out and lock the hubs in . . .

 

[CJDave]

/wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif The technical aspects of this alternator-based onboard welder are somewhat beyond me since I never bothered to really get familiar with alternator components and their specific functions./wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif I have had a SUPER portable welder and portable generator guy as a vendor since 1976, and frankly HE is the guru so I have never become one. I have had several alternator-type portable welders and I really liked them, especially for those times when I needed A LOT of 120V power for fans and pumps on our jobsites. I believe that the Miller Roughneck is an alternator based welder, in HIGH FREQUENCY AC. One heck of a good unit. the frequency at full throttle was 120Hz, and the rod burned so well that overhead welding was no problem. If I were you, and choices had to be made, I would try to provide for high frequency if at all possible. If that is a function of RPM...which it is.....then that may influence your thinking as to engine speed and pulley overdrive ratios./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif I remember guys making portable welders out of surplus WWII airplane generators when I was a kid. I believe those planes were like 36 Volts./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gifFarms-With-Jeep touched on a subject in his post and that was the possibility of the alternator tryiong to crank the engine when the engine is not running. On stationary Cat engines they DO use an oil pressure switch to prevent that from happening. LINCOLN welder company made a small two-cylinder portable welder that DID use the generator as the starter. It sounded so strange....the welder just rolled over, you heard no starter kick in. The 1922 Dodge was that way, had a combination generator-starter that was driven by the timing gear, and the called it the "Silent Starter" guys made winches out of them until there was not a Dodge starter left on earth. I think they were 12V even back in them ol' days./wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Tracs modified While-U-Wait by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Quadra-Trac Team./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

 

[kutyafal]

Jay, you gotta get me the number or website for that Surplus Center catalog. Seems there a few good things in there for me. /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif I've been at it all weekend trying to make the bracket for the thing. There are some issues to overcome (space is one of them, this thing is BIG!), but I'm making progress. I've basically mounted the thing now just working on the upper stiffeners for insurance. I think once I'm done the way I want it you'll be able to use the bracket as an engine hoist attachment. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Once I get the thing turning and putting out some juice we'll see how it works (if at all) and what else it may need.

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R

 

[Jay Anger]

It will be about a week for the catalog to come in, but it has a lot of great stuff that makes my mind swim with "dangerous" ideas for future upgrades. You will see what I mean after you get the catalog.

Their number is 800-488-3407. Someone else on the board that lives up in Lincoln, NE, turned me to them to find a air valve that Grainger didn't even carry!



When you come to the end of your road, get out and lock the hubs in . . .

 

[Jay Anger]

Dave -

I am not a welder guru, so could you please explain to the board again the difference between high-frequency and low-frequency and its effects on welding. Also - if you can expound on the effects of high voltage (say 36 volts) and low voltage (say 12 volts) and the effect that this has on welding too. I remember a post that you waxed an elephant on this topic, but with those stupid "see how much crap I have on my Jeep" signatures that so many people have now, it makes quality searches almost impossible. (/wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gifPresent company excluded of course!/wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif)

I like the idea of having a good AC source on the trail. It would be nice to have a 110 outlet to plug in a couple of halogen work site lamps . . . Like for some of those bad wipeouts that after dark that need extra careful recovery or for some of those just before dark breakages that seem to be orchestrated by Murphy himself.

Do you have any clue how one of these generators hold up to the fluctuations of heat and moisture that would occur under the hood?

It is funny you mention the WWII airplane generators. This catalog has most of the components necessary to build a welder out of one of them.

When you come to the end of your road, get out and lock the hubs in . . .

 

[Guest]

Hey - FYI - Farm Jeep - you mentioned about damaging the alternator by accidentally switching the welder on when the Jeep is not running. That does not happen - BUT... this does kill the battery - and I mean KILL...

Chuck Hadley

 

[kutyafal]

Yeah, it's basically shorting the battery across the rotor coils, isn't it?

'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R