Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

Let's keep this country the United States of America!

Other countries can stay themselves.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

Nope, not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.

I was convinced in that "Good Bye Saddam, Hell ain't half full" thread that I should blindly support my President and Commander in Chief, no matter what.

Cough, cough, almost choked on that one.

You are seeing the longest most expensive re-election campaign ever. It's gone on for 3 years and cost billions. George W. has take a page or two out of every popular presidents play book.

Reagan - amnesty and the tax rebates

Kennedy - space program

Daddy - Iraq war

The bad thing is there is no other choice. Paraphrasing what Harry Truman once said, if you run a Democrat (the one in the White House) against a Democrat, the Democrat's going to win every time."

Has anybody but me noticed the conspicuous absence of any comments from daddy? Guess he believes that if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

I agree if it were true. California tried to cancel the "Vasero" program many years ago and the food rotted in the fields. No one would come off welfare for those kinds of jobs.

On the other hand if they get a legal foothold in the US then who knows what will happen. The last amnesty program added a lot of tax payers to the rolls to pay for the welfare.

I have mixed feelings about it.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

I find it hard to believe that any president could bring to fruition such a sweeping radical immigration proposal in 4 years. It's an issue that lacks impact in a tangible way to the man on the street nationwide. Is your middle class swing voter going to say "hooray for bush--he loves the working man!" because he supports amnesty for aliens? No.

The herculean effort required to bring this about in his tenure, or possible tenure, forces one to believe that it is, in fact, a shallow ploy to buy the hispanic vote with empty words.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

I dont agree with letting people get away with not following procedure to become citizens of the USA. Yes this country was built on foriegners from all differant backgrounds, but there are rules that ANYONE who wants to live here should have to abide by.

I think i may agree with you taz, at least in part.

Phil

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

Let's keep this country the United States of America!

Other countries can stay themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's a little problem that we have here, Rich. I won't dwell too long on the fact that this IS a nation of immigrants.... It's called demographics. You see, everyone except LEVE (GOD bless him) had only 2.8 children ...and not the 5-7 (whenever the wife's organs gave out). We're also getting VERY OLD as a society. Plumbers, doctors, police, ...everyone is 45 years old or older. Even African Americans have remained an almost constant 11-13% of our population.

Notice how more and more of your doctors are East Asian or Central Asian? Get used to it. Demographics dictates that there will NOT be a never ending cycle of caucasian dominated society. The fortunate thing about overseas immigration is that we have a filter. Most are college educated. Our neighbors south of the border don't get screened at all ....and not all that seek the bounty of the USA are otherwise law abiding people ...many are criminal "island hoppers" who enter via PR from the Dominican Republic ..being "legal illegals" ...they commit their crimes and, typically, eventually get arrested or killed. This is a REAL problem in Reading, PA and many other former industrial urban centers.

I would say in the next 20 or 30 years the term "American" will not necessarily mean "caucasian".

Yes, Bush is vote buying. Most of you out there weight your vote on a single dimension of either the RIGHT or the LEFT's political agenda ...be it abortion/pro-life etc.. What most of you are too naive to understand is that this just the carrot that is waved in front of you to hand the reigns over to someone who is just going to do a bunch of other things that will harm you. Most of you who hate big government and taxes ...vote Republican. Most of you aren't wise enough to figure out that although Dummiecrats tax and spend ..Rubmypalmagains BORROW and spend. So ..pay as you go ..or put the pork on a credit card (bonds, t-bills, etc.) and worry about it later on. Some profit from global stability .....some profit from global instability. I think they're all screwing us ...it's just how you prefer your "violation'.

Either way ...we pay for it all....

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

I think they're all screwing us ...it's just how you prefer your "violation'. Either way ...we pay for it all....

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO: Gary pretty well sums it up.... As much as I might not like admitting it...

For me, my vote goes w/ the guys who do the least to restrict my right to

(Then at least I can harbor the delusion that I can 'take back' my government upon the onset of tyranny

- whenever that is. As my children are wont to say on the long drive to Grandma's: "Are we there yet dad?")

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

I would say in the next 20 or 30 years the term "American" will not necessarily mean "caucasian".

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you,,,,,,,,,Myself, my family and ancestors are the original Americans, "Native American" ,,,,,,then the Europeans invaded American and became "The Americans",,,,,,,now another group is on it's way to become "The Americans",,,,,,,,,,It's sad but I guess it's the way things work in this world,,,,,,,

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

This country already has laws on immigration - passed many years ago. They apportion the amount of immigrants to keep things equal.
But the way the politicians have been letting the borders be open to the south, and somewhat to the north, it's becoming an unequal society.
Remember, when the immigration laws were observed and it had a balance, that's what made this country great in the first place.
Now with 10,000 A DAY coming across the border from the south, it's radically becoming the united states of mexico.
Here in southern calif we have to contend with it - it's getting so the hospitals are jammed with them, schools are jammed with them, even places like home depot have their signs in spanish - some ailses not even in English anymore.

Mexico is a third world country, no matter what the whackos say. They bring their ideas of gang life, diseases, and crime - just look at any jail - just drive down the street of many cities at night - try not to get shot at.

Can you honestly say the political system - based on mordida - bribes - of mexico should be copied?
How 'bout the Napoleonic judicial system - guilty until proven innocent?

But for some reason, politicians think illegal immigrants vote!
Actually they do - it was proven in Orange County that illegals voted so much the election was swayed. Other places it happened too. Do you call that crooked - or Democratic?

The Hispanic population count in California is very close to 50% now. And many illegals hid and weren't counted in the census. I helped with the census taking in my neighborhood - many houses had at least 10 people living there - but they claimed only 2 or 3. I knew that wasn't right - as a neighbor.

Look up Maztlan and or La Raza on the web, you'll find the effort by mexico to take over the southwest. Scarey!

LEVE posted a site where you can object if you want to - it's not mandatory, just good sense.

By the way -- it was the "Bracero" program. At the time the borders were not open like they are now. We still observed immigration laws and limited legal aliens on a quota. It worked great.
The Braceros were an asset to the US, it was the unions that wanted the Bracero program stopped! They claimed unemployed legal resident americans needed the work.
It didn't work, they didn't want to work for the lower wages - but the Braceros thought the low dollars was big money for them, as their families in mexico were living in poverty. It really helped mexico, and us.
A new Bracero program would be good -- but the illegal alien traffic needs to be stopped at the same time.
10,000 a day!
Bush is trying to take a step in the right direction, but the liberals stop him from doing the second part.
You can't have both!

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

I like it.

It sure is better then Gray Davis and his "give them all CA drivers licenses" ploy to stay in office. Got to love democrats. And the "double think".

These workers are going to be here anyway. Nobody here is going to starve by loosing out on a 2 dollar an hour cabbage-picking job to somebody that can use that money to support his family back home.

Mexico is a great place filled with great people.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

One thing is for sure - the imbalance is definately causing problems here.
But you can't blame the illegal immigrants themselves. They are only trying to better themselves. Even at low pay, they recieve much more than they can get at home. Many send most of their money home to their families.
You certainly can't blame them for trying! We'd do the same thing if the situation was the reverse.

But the politicians let it happen, with their only motive to try to get votes, never thinking of the consequenses - not understanding or caring what happens to the country or the immigrants. Isn't that a form of Treason? What's the penalty for reason? That needs to be enforced on a few, the others will get the idea.

The other trouble-makers are some of the people that take advantage of the workers - making them live like animals, treating them badly etc.

As long as even one American goes to bed hungry, it's our duty to give him the opportunity to work (not all want to work.) Once those that want to work are working, and if there's still a need for more help - import it, just makes good sense. But do it all with a fair and equitable orderly procedure. Open borders like we have now just create havoc, confusion, and invite crime and smuggling.

Yes, this is a nation of immigrants, and everyone has something to offer, whether it's ideas or just manual labor.

One thing that would help considerably - make it a requirement for every elected or appointed politician that they must have held a job - anykind of job or jobs, for a total of at least 10 years. Eliminate career politicians that don't understand the real world. If that were suddenly passed, Congress and the Senate would be nearly empty.

Did you know Al Gore has never even had a driver's license?

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

Did you know Al Gore has never even had a driver's license?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know that.

WTF?????
That amazes me.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

But the way the politicians have been letting the borders be open to the south,

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Well, you just summed it up. Our fine shepherds have ALLOWED this to happen. Why? Simply because, in some way, shape, or form ...someone WANTS this to happen. We have been punishing Cuba for over 50 years. We could be buying sugar for half the price we do now. Why? It's not some five decade old idealogical grudge. It's because it was a great excuse to allow someone to profit from it at our expense (there may be other reasons ..but this is one byproduct).

Do you mean to tell me that IF the stewards of our fine nation wanted to they could not stop this? Is our administration(s) SO incompetent that they could not stop invading hordes from violating our southern border? Heck if they wanted to they could have all domestic military training conducted along our southern border (it will probably be more like the desert conditions that our future military campains will be conducted in) but do they?

The bottom line is that this illegal immigration is WANTED by those who truly run this nation. I believe that even if you could muster a 30 million person protest against it ....it would still continue.

This is some form of "hemisphere welfare managment" program with unpleasent, but necessary, side effects. This is totally apparent since whether the right or the left is in office ...it continues.

I just wish I had the wisdom to read through this nebulous agenda and filter out the actions with the desired goals. I can't for the life of me figure out why the politicians can't just say "look, we have two choices ...and this is the least painful path to what must be done sooner or later". Instead they like to distract us with a bunch of fires that have to be put out so we can't see the hand that is reaching in our pockets.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

But the way the politicians have been letting the borders be open to the south, and somewhat to the north, it's becoming an unequal society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich, I would have to disagree with you on the north point...economically, Canada is not at all like Mexico. While Can-US relations could use a little rehab in things like lumber, water and wheat, the immigration issue is different. The majority of Canadians moving to the US for work are for highly skilled trades and professions such as teaching, nursing, science and technology. And to make a (dangerous?) sweeping generalization, the majority of them are highly educated (at least 1 university degree) WASPs. Aside from the toque and our supposedly funny accent, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between them and an "American".

These people are invited to apply for jobs in the US: our national newspapers have ads in the careers sections from organizations looking for people to fill those jobs. The reason they go is that they can't find work in their field here first, and/or in most cases the salaries are substantially greater than what they could make here. Some of them even receive significant signing bonuses as well as having a good portion of their living expenses paid.

The demographic and the reason for Canadian immigration to the US differs radically from that of Mexico to the US...

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

You are absolutly correct! I didn't mean the Canadians aren't welcome at all. But we should treat both borders - all borders, even from the sea - the same.
Canada is still a pipeline for immigrants from other countries as well, not just Canadians.
Canada is certainly not a third world nation!

He He - Every years lots and lots of Canadians come out here - Palm Springs triples in population during the winter. Ah, I only wish they could drive!

Many of the so-called terrorists have entered through Canada. Immigrants should be on a quota system - based on their homeland, not what border they cross through. A cross section of the entire world was what the quotas were based on. That kept it from becoming some other country, like Ireland, Argentina, Russia etc. A true melting pot.

Years ago, not sure if it's still true, Australia wanted immigrants - but they only wanted certain people with skills they needed. They even would pay folks to move there, doctors, engineers, educated and skilled workers. If you drove a truck or a backhoe, you were out of luck - not welcome! And they practiced racial discrimination in their selection process. I don't agree with that at all.

Equal opportunity for everyone, without making some people more equal than others.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

Rrich... I'm going to have to wholeheartedly disagree with your views on the Mexican people. My parents, unlike myself, did very well for themselves and retired to Mexico. They live on a beach in San Felipe, and although I couldn't understand this at first, it didn't take me long to realize why they did so. The Mexican people are some of the nices I've EVER met. They could usually give a rats ass about "the finer things in life" and want nothing more than to provide for their families. I found them to be warm, kind, and generous people. It's difficult to not notice generosity from a man that has nothing. But when I go down to visit my parents... this is what I see, each time, every time. It's the Americanized Mexicans you need to worry about, not Juan Valdez trying to put food in his childrens mouths. I love Mexicans... and those who don't haven't been to Mexico. That's just my two cents worth. I still don't think that the overabundance of illegal immigration does not need to be placed in check. I'm just responding to your fairly insensitive remarks on Mexicans bringing "their ideas on gang life, diseases, and crime". I'm Italian, my mom came to this country when she was seventeen from Italy. That makes me the son of an immigrant, I guess. And there's not a day that goes by where I don't think of the tears, sweat, and pain my mom went shed to see that I turned out the way I am... which I consider to be fairy sensitive and caring towards others, stand up kinda guy... like a Mexican. Don't hate the sinners, hate the sin. Sorry so long. But I like Mexicans.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

Years ago, not sure if it's still true, Australia wanted immigrants - but they only wanted certain people with skills they needed. They even would pay folks to move there, doctors, engineers, educated and skilled workers. If you drove a truck or a backhoe, you were out of luck - not welcome!

[/ QUOTE ]

The reasoning for that is that unskilled labour is easily come by. Don't take this the wrong way, because most of it is by no means easy work, but it's not rocket science. There is a much larger labour pool to draw from (essentially the entire working population), hence no reason to allow immigration on that basis. Highly skilled labour is at the top of the labour triangle - very few of them around, and the reason why university professors and orchestra conductors seem to be able to move around the world without regard for borders or immigration/residency laws.

Canada has a system like that right now...you're scored on things like education, bilingualism, family in the country, skills, (i THINK) country of origin, etc. The government has been criticized for being too strict about it, however. At one point (not sure about currency of this), one of our government or opposition officials was an immigrant, and it was pointed out that he would have been rejected from Canadian citizenship under the current system. I'm not sure what that bodes worse for: the policies we have in place, or the people we have creating those policies.

In reply to:

Every years lots and lots of Canadians come out here - Palm Springs triples in population during the winter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, yes. The "snowbirds". The part of our population who complain about the winter weather but actually do something about it. You want 'em? They're yours, the lightweights

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

I don't think the US has ever had a discrimination mindset for immigrants. Skilled or unskilled, they've always been welcome. But in reasonable proportions - until of late.

If we suddenly stopped allowing everyone in except people from Outer Linoleum, but let them in unrestricted by the thousands, then this country would become Outer Linoleum #2.

But by balancing immigration quotas, it never becomes out of balance. We get the benefits and ideas from all countries, and can take advantage of the best of all. That's the beauty of this country - it's a mixture with a balance. It's what has made this country great.

But when politicians don't understand what the word "ILLEGAL" is, things go crazy lopsided. Why would they be called "illegal" if they were here following the rules - laws set out by politicians themselves?
Are some laws just there for looks? If one doesn't like a law, shouldn't it be changed rather than just ignore it? What would happen if everyone decided your house and belongings were up for grabs? Isn't there a law against that? Should we ignore that law too? Which ones should we follow?

Of course not all Mexicans are gang-bangers. But how many Canadian gangs have you seen? How many French gangs? Why?
When was the last time you saw a gang of Finnish people rioting?

Why doesn't Home Depot put their signs up in Hungarian or Russian? Could it be the Hispanics that once accounted for 8% of the population in the 60's have become more prolific in the last few years?

California is not the only place that's getting the illegal immigrants.

By the way - a good friend of mine is what some folks call "African American." He objects to that term - as I do. He's an American. He's never been to Africa, nor were his parents or grandparents. He lost part of his foot in fighting for this country in 'Nam. He's definately more American than lots of other people - why is he called an African?
To be fair, I should be called a German/Irish/Welsh/English/Italian/Apache American. But I'm not. My parents and grandparents were born here too.
He's an American, so am I.
He feels if one must call out his nationality and race, they should call him a black American, just like they should call out someone with Korean ancestry but born here an Oriental American.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

The system of "points" that Canada used is OLD.. and has just about stopped..

It was based on investment, skills, what you did, family size, and what your plans were.

When I came here with my parents (I was 4) this was about 17 years ago.. we got in because we had a 6 member family, my parents invested in Canadian Bonds, my dad promised to start a company and hire one Canadian for a minimum one year. They promised to buy a house, and my dad was a qualified cabiniet maker. (he'd never made one in his life.)

Now it's a much more clsoed system and surprisingly ( it wouldn't seem so.) it's rather hard to get in now...

For some reason I remember there's this big green lady in the states.. somewhere on the east coast.. has a phrase.. "Give me your tired your hungry your tired masses yearning to be free." stamped into her feet.

Think people should think about where they are from and how they got there before they just outright say.. "lets kick them all out."

not that I'm saying let everone in.. I'm definitely not.. but shutting a border and shooting everyone trying to cross isn't a good solution.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

For some reason I remember there's this big green lady in the states.. somewhere on the east coast.. has a phrase.. "Give me your tired your hungry your tired masses yearning to be free." stamped into her feet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't France make that and give it to the states? How fitting,,,,,,,,,,,

In reply to:

Think people should think about where they are from and how they got there before they just outright say.. "lets kick them all out."

[/ QUOTE ]

I have,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

Are some laws just there for looks? If one doesn't like a law, shouldn't it be changed rather than just ignore it? What would happen if everyone decided your house and belongings were up for grabs? Isn't there a law against that? Should we ignore that law too? Which ones should we follow?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, problem these days is that so many laws on the books got passed b/c of 'vote selling' by (seemingly all) the crooks... err, I mean politicians. By vote selling, I mean the "if you vote for my [self-interested]bill today, I will vote for yours tomorrow"; I think the term 'pork barrel' applies if funding bill(s) are involved.

If all the laws we had were truly in the public interest - actually wanted by the majority or rationally protecting the minority - we'd be in much better shape. But, the money of the special interest groups does indeed keep the political world revolving. (Yes, my beloved NRA is one of the biggest/powerful; I prefer to think 'we' are preserving the Framers' original intent

.)

I could go on, but why ruin an otherwise restful Sunday evening?

One last point: I have a dim view of folks who hyphenate their nationalism. Hyphens divide things; what you are, in effect, saying is that "I'm a divided American".

Can you imagine the fun and conversation that would ensue around the campfire if we all met for a weekend of wheeling?

(But, better have Marshal Dillon at the gate for folks to check their shootin' irons on their way in.

)

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

I have a dim view of folks who hyphenate their nationalism. Hyphens divide things; what you are, in effect, saying is that "I'm a divided American".

[/ QUOTE ]

Bahahahahaha

, I'm assuming your talking about me,,,,,,,,,,,,why do you take a dim view of of the truth,,,,the fact is, Native Americans ARE divided from everyone else in the United States,,,,,we are our own nation within your nation. Don't let your patriotic feelings about your nation distort the facts,,,,,, it's not just your America.

Would you really shoot somebody over this

Peace

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

Nope W.C., my comment was not directed at you. If anyone has a right to a hyphen (a punctuation which I've never seen used in "Native American"), it'd be those who were here first. In fact, I'm rumored to have some Cherokee corpuscles running around in my own bloodstream. My opinion of hyphen use is reserved for the 'latecomers'... and everyone getting here after the Natives are numbered therein.

Native Americans got a raw deal from our past (and present?) 'leaders'

. A little application of the Golden Rule would have been appropriate

.

Peace be with you too my brother.

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

In reply to:

The system of "points" that Canada used is OLD.. and has just about stopped..

[/ QUOTE ]

au contraire...it is still in full effect...this chart applies to "skilled workers"...the "business" person qualifications are based on your net worth (starting at $300K and up), or " As a self-employed person, you must have relevant experience in cultural activities, athletics or farm management."

In reply to:

it's rather hard to get in now...

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree...based on that chart, i think i would have difficulty making the 67 points they want now, let alone the 75 it used to be...

 

Re: O/T Stop President\'s Illegal Immigrant Amnesty

Sorry I missunderstood you,,,,,,,,,

Please don't shoot anybody about this,,,,,