TR, I apologise for paying attention to your statement in your first post..

snip
"NO MATTER WHAT RIFLE YOU CHOOSE, be sure to lap fire the barrel before sighting in or target practice.
Getting the burrs off the rifling and not letting them imbed in the barrel walls is a must for future accuracy."
snip

...and not paying attention to the clarification in your second post on fire lapping. I still disagree with fire lapping as a method to improve a barrel, I've just seen too many of them get scrapped this way.

As far as Krieger barrels being overpriced and shooting as well as other match barrels, yes they are more expensive than another makers non-cut rifled products, but I've seen many buttoned or broached barrels go away after 3000 rounds and the Krieger will last 7000 rounds in an identical caliber. Stainless barrels are not "less good" than a chrome moly barrel but they will start to fade (for a hi-master shooter) about 1000 rounds sooner than a CRO2 unit. But most benchrest guys I have talked too will pull a barrel after 1000 rounds anyways I have no idea if you do this or not, just an observation in my shooting experience (albeit it is half the time you have spent, and I shoot a different discipline).

I didn't post this to start an argument over methods of caring for any particular gun and I hope it wasn't taken that way. There are as many opinions on this as there are shooters. This was just mine.

Mike H.
1983 CJ-7 Laredo

 

Don't worry about arguments... Arguments (unless it downgrades to name callin') seem to be the tool to draw out the very last drop of info...

So far, I'm very happy with the amount of info provided though /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif...

Tim "Sandman"

 

Debates are what this would be. Arguments are not cool, but debates are. Without healthy debate, NOTHING is gained.

Personally, I'm loving this thread!

Fritz

Jeep...need I say more?

 

Well, I don't know nearly as much as TR and others but I shoot well and hunt with very high success using a 1917 Eddystone that I picked up for $30. It is basically an 1906 Springfield but Springfield couldn't produce enough for the Army in WW1 so contracts were farmed out. Eddystone was one of the producers. It is (of course) chambered in .30-06. .30-06 is the .30 caliber round that was designed for the "06" Springfield. I've heard quite a few wild explanations about the .30-06 designation, none of which are true other than what I have just stated. I am not a competitive shooter, but this rifle is accurate as hell for "plinking" targets at 500-600 yds and I'm sure it could reach further. I just don't practice at longer ranges. For hunting I usually limit myself to 200-300 yds. With open sights I can't be sure of a good hit at ranges further than that and I don't want to track a wounded muley across half the state. At 200-300 yds I can always get a vital shot, and if they don't drop where they stand they never go more than 20-30 yds before falling. The Springfields and their "knock-offs" are everywhere and you can find the "sporterized" version like I have for $25-$50 quite easily. You don't need a museum peice to go huntin'. .30-06 ammo is cheap, and there are so many quality rounds out there that I don't reload. I often buy packaged reloads for around $15-$20 for 20 rounds and they will give you a couple bucks off for a full box of brass.

Like I said, I'm cheap, but it works for me. I love my Father-in-Law's Browning BAR2 auto-loader in .300 mag with Luepold scope, but that's way to rich for my blood

September 11, 2001- We will not forget! We will not forgive!

 

This could open up a whole new can of worms. /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif

Milsurps are great fun to collect. While you may not get a rifle that will be good out to the distances that you want, you can pick up a couple of excellent rifles for under $300. One that I would look for would be a Swedish Mauser M96 - 6.5x55MM rifle. It has been the best milsurp that I've shot so far - a real tack driver. Ammo is a bit expensive, but you can reload it. I agree with utahjeeper as well - the P17 is a great rifle (I've got an Eddystone myself). Another rifle to consider is one of the Russian Mosin-Nagant variations. While some may snicker at the thought of doing any accuracy work with the MN, you can find some really good shooters out there for dirt cheap. They are chambered for 7.62x54R, which is roughly equivalent to the .308.

Check out http://www.mosin-nagant.net/ for tons of information on milsurps, Mosin-Nagants in particular. They also have a great forum setup there too.

A good listener is not only popular everywhere, but after a while he gets to know something.
-Wilson Mizner

 

Lot good stuff here. TR nailed it . Just a thought . 308 =great round. I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT FOR SILHOUETTE IT CAN BE A BIT MUCH FOR RECOIL.I think that would depend on how serious you are. Could load down the 308 too. Have to talk to your local guys. 308 good all round . The Rem safty thing. Our kid's friend just bought a new Rem and it will go off when you close the bolt. I would stay away. Great rifle its to bad.

 

That old '06 Springfield came in two versions, two groove barrel, and four groove barrel.
I've owned both.
The action is solid, the four groove barrel gives slightly more twist and improves accuracy.
I shoot cast lead bullets through mine. A little more cleaning, but REAL cheap to shoot, and if you get a 'good' barrel, just as accurate as anything made today.
I have a wholesale catalog here listing them for under $100 for choice rifles.
Excellent choice for informal target practice in the 30.06 chambering.
If he would have said he wanted a 30.06, I would have recommended that '06 Springfield myself.
(Spanish Mauser in .308 with 21" bbl, $109, I don't see one in '06 in this sale paper)

My biggest complaint with the older rifles was they were made to fire black powder cartridges, not modern nitro cellulose powder.
I'm always afraid I'm going to go a grain or two over the limit... (I do like to push things!) and cause a 'failure'...
I've already blown apart a falling block Sharps, and an original Peace Maker, and I still have all my original skin, and I'm getting a little leery of doing it again. (those equivalency tables converting black powder cartridges to modern powder LIE!!)

Also, if you get one of the real old ones, like the '98 Mauser or '06 Springfield, they had corrosive powder and corrosive mercury fulminate primer residue, and many of the barrels and actions are just ate to junk from that, so be careful when buying sight-un-seen hardware.
( I usually pay the extra $10 or $20 for the hand picked select parts when I'm buying something like that.)

All in all, I love my old '06 Springfield and my Mauser '98, both are excellent buys, and will give years of service.



So many cats, so few recipes...

 

If cost is no object:
Accuracy International (AW Series.)

Arctic Warfare Magnum http://www.accuracyinternational.com/awm.htm
Arctic Warfare Pistol http://www.accuracyinternational.com/awp.htm
Arctic Warfare .50cal http://www.accuracyinternational.com/aw50.htm

But I guess it all depends on what your hunting? (Elephants, rhinos, tanks?)
They also have near 0 maintenance. (Mean round before failure is 25,000.)

 

For a hunting rifle my suggestion is a Winchester model 70 featherwieght in 30-06, with a Leupold 3-9x40 on it. I have that setup, it is light, accurate, balanced, and packs a good punch. I love mine, I have taken elk out to 400 yards with it with great sucess, but it gives a bit or recoil, not something that I would shoot targets with all day.

John
Got Beach?

 

Teamrush--you're right about people knocking the autoloaders. My last .308 was an M-21 (sniper variant of the M-14). I really liked that rifle, way more accurate than me! Generally shot 168gr BTHP for playing, but used 180 noslers for hunting deer on Kodiak. However, when I did that, I always had someone backing me up with a big rifle in case a brown bear showed up......However, the rifle was plenty accurate, plenty powerful for dear, caribou and blackbear, and I still had that 20 round box magazine....or five or six......if you can find a decent M14, FN-FAL, H&K or AR-10, at a reasonable price, they give great service. Little buggers sure seem to go through the ammo faster than my bolt rifles for some reason though!

"If it ain't broke, try harder!"
or
"If at first you don't succeed, change the rules!"

 

shootist you sound like a guy i used to know when i was stationed at BadTolz, the guy had a bunch of guns but the one i remember the most was this really cool sniper rilfe and if i remember it right it was a styer it had a big black stock heavy barrel with two trigers on it he told me that not too many of them were made

anyway the guy i knew got into trouble one night when he and some of his buddys turned a vw bug over on its roof in the middle of an intersection and spinning it around

could that be you only reason i ask is because of the gun he told me one day that it would shoot thru the same hole all day if he did his part and when you said that above it got me to thinking

 

Actually the Eddystone P17 was based upon the P14 Enfield rather than the Springfield 03 - of course, most Mauser offspring bear a good touch of resemblance. Many US companies were already manufacturing Enfields for British service in WW1 and tooling over to the P17 was alot easier than the 03 when the time came to arm up America. During WW1, P17's were actually alot more common in US service than Springfields. American Rifleman had a great writeup on these about a year or so ago. Even if it's not in collector's condition, they dress up real nice.

Personally, my deer "rifle" is a S&W 629 .44mag revolver. I don't have to worry about gun racks in the CJ

Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you

 

I have been trying to listen to what you are looking for and my recommendation is a stainless steel Savage with a synthetic stock. This gun will take the abuse and wont cost you a ton. You can toss it around and not have to worry. I wouldn't recommend spending tons of money on your first rifle.

My favorite rifle to shoot is my Cooper .17 Mach IV. It has far less recoil than a .223 and is flying at over 4,000 fps. However, it's only a varmint gun not a big game gun. I have a Leupold 8.5-25x scope on it. I have several Bausch & Lomb Elite 4200's (6-24x) that I prefer. Take a look at www.bearbasin.com and you will see that the Bausch & Lomb is several hundred dollars less. I can afford the Leupolds but the B&L (Elite 4200) is a clearer scope.

308 is a good all-around round just like everyone else is saying.

I have Brownings, Remingtons, Savages, Winchesters and more. When I go hunting, I use a Savage. When I want to impress my friends, I pull out something else that is prettier.

Two years ago I wanted to get my brother a new hunting rifle for Christmas. I wanted something that would out shoot his current rifle yet take the abuse. I bought him a Savage Model 116FSAK in 270. He loves the gun and he hasn't been "out shot" by anyone in the field (I'm not talking about match guns) yet. WWW.Savagearms.com

Reloading - I would recommend waiting to do this. Save all your brass until you are ready to take that plunge. I have a Dillion 650 with an auto case feeder. All I have to do is put the bullet on the brass and pull the handle. I can load over 500 rounds an hour without rushing. I shot IPSC for several years so reloading was a must. I pretty much stopped shooting matches in '98 however I still loaded just over 20,000 rounds that year. I saved my primer boxes so I would know how many rounds I loaded. Dillions are nice loaders but are just too much if you are only going to shoot a couple hundred rounds a year.

 

I think the 308 is one of the best most accurate cartrages there is ... GOOD choice ... the Tango 51 made by Tac-Ops is gaurented 1/4 moa great gun but 3000 ... its based on the rem 700 ... other than the keyed safty the 700 is great and that would be my choice.

 

Lots of good information in the above posts. Like a couple of guys have said, the best gun for you is the one that is the most comfortable. For .308 or 30-06 you don't need the BOSS. Plus, they are incredibly loud. That is not such a big deal when you are hunting, but when you are at the range, that sound is going to be bouncing off the station partitions (the range I go to has plexiglass dividers between each shooting station to keep brass from hitting the shooter next to you), so it will be much more noticable. Like a bunch of people have already said, aftermarket parts are readily available for the Remington. The 700 action is kind of the "standard" in the custom gun field, so it is easier and cheaper to upgrade than the Browning. I also like .308 because it is so plentiful in surplus form, but the new barrel that I just bought for a 98 Mauser action that I have is for 30-06. It seems to me that 30-06 is easier to come by, it is available just about everywhere, and there is a factory loading available for anything you want to hunt with it. That all said, if it was my gun, and the Browning and Remington both fit me the same, and I was not planning to do any major customizing (new barrel or rechambering) of the rifle, I would go with the Browning without the BOSS. If I was planning to do any customizing or was worried about shooting it so much that I would wear out the barrel, I would go with the Remington 700 BDL. Hopefully I will be the proud owner of a new Remington 700 BDL, 30-06, Tasco 3-9x40 scope, sling and hard case, tonight. My hunt club is raffling it off at the meeting tonight. Whatever you buy, enjoy it and above all else, be safe.
Steve

 

Some excellent information here, I would just like to add my 2 cents. I had a gun business for 22 yrs, until the last liberal made that option not appealing. I sold just about every kind of gun out there and owned just about every kind. Let me qualify that, I am not an expert, or even highly experienced. I believe teamrush and others have way more experience than I.

BUT!!!

From my experience, Most rifles are good, some bad come along from all makers. In 22 years, I believe I sent back probably 25 rifles for one problem or another. Remington is the only one that refused to fix, correct, go good for or even acknowledge there was a problem. From my perspective, I think Remington is junk, only for that reason. Yes, the 700 is a good strong, accurate action, but its safety problems that Remington refuses to address is to much to ignore for me.

There are dozens of "good" rifles and calibres, of which the 308 is excellent, but I personally would look elswhere for an action. I believe, there is a firm making the old style winchester M70 action out of new alloys. If you have the money and the desire, you could have one excellent rifle custom built to your specifications.

Good luck.

Enjoying Montana's Big Sky

 

I am not as full of information as those who have posted before me. I am as manny know in law enforcement. Traditionaly we have used the .308 in remmington 700, synthetic stock, bull barrell and leapould vari X Scope with mil dot. While this is an excelent weapon I also shoot for sport and last year purchased a P-10 Tactical made by Savage. I have found that even with the fair quality scope that is mounted on it I hold tighter groups with it at the 300 yard line than my friends with their remington 700's

The remington is a good gun, but the savage is priced much less and just as accurate.

If money is no consideration then I recomend a Cooper it will outshoot both remington and savage out of the box.

as for reloading I like RCBS or Horandy. I reload for every weapon I own and have never had problems with their products. Also reloading will increse your accuracy,,

97 TJ 31's and mostly stock but seeing what I can do about that..

 

here you go... .50 cal. barrett !! You can take it to africa and hunt elephants if you want.

5.0s and 4 speed = lots of broken parts!!!

 

Or better yet you can go a little further north east and hunt one of these elusive creatures.....

5.0s and 4 speed = lots of broken parts!!!

 

Elephants?

You could hunt tanks..

I was thinking with the AW series weapons by Accuracy international, you could easily take on one of those Riot APC's with the wheels and water cannons on the top.

 

Only with depleted uranium armor piercing ammo. No matter how big a gun is or how powerfull it is soft core ammo wont pennetrate(but it will pass through a turbin like butter)...... : )

5.0s and 4 speed = lots of broken parts!!!

 

Jimmy, I thought you Jersey guys were protected from owning those cool, I mean horrible threats to society. If its yours or you have an interest come on over to www.biggerhammer.net That's where a lot of guys with expensive shooting habbits hang out. Click the "Barret and 50 cal info" link and then the "dicussion board" link. Oh, and where has a guy from Canada even seen an Accuracy International? I thought they were a peace loving gun free nation. Final thought: when you think .50 ammo think Raufoss.

 

I browse through biggerhammer.net once in a while... At some point I have to have a rifle chambered in .50bmg... Especially after watching some of those videos they show of those... I don't think we can have those here in MI.. The way I understand it we can't have anything that powerful... Also I believe here in MI we can't have full auto either even with the proper federal permits... /wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif

Tim "Sandman"

 

Like I mentioned before, I like bigbore rifles myself. Though I haven't shot a shoulder fired .50 myself (got to fire some blanks from a M113 once) I've handled a few. Nice rifles, but I think I like the idea of a Ma Duece in the back of my jeep on a pintle mount. Do wonders for tailgaters!


(Ma Duece=M2 the standard military .50 Cal Browning)

"If it ain't broke, try harder!"

 

ok since we're getting even more off topic than the off topic question, somebody mentioned reliability and fun shooting. my opinion hands down is my AK. gun show rounds can be had cheap and the dam thing will keep shooting no matter how bad i treat it and there ain't nothing like loading 10 30rd mags and blasting plywood as fast as you can. got to be sumthin to'em tested world wide in REAL world situtations. just my opinion

taco
78cj7