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1. 62 years ago today,
2. 2,043 US military and civilians lost their lives at Pear Harbor,
Just a small example: [*]When the Arizona went down she carried with her , [*] 33 sets of brothers , [*]29 sets of twins [*]and 4 sets of triplets .
3. And then the US went to war...
4. Changing millions of lives forever,
5. Foe and Friend alike,
6. As those who lived and fought in that conflict,
7. Daily slip into history,
8. I can only stare in amazement,
9. At their sacrifice,
10. Humbled, and grateful,
11. And bow my head today,
12. In a moment of [*]Remembrance [*]Thanksgiving [*]Prayer
13. On their behalf, and
14. For those in todays conflict
15. God Bless George Bush,
16. God Bless America,
17. God bless the American Military in their tasks,
18. God bless their families.
 

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I was thinking about exactly that this morning. 62 years ago, just about to the minute.

I went to the Arizona Memorial a few years ago. It's quite humbling. I prefer to think of it as more than a memorial to the men who died that morning. It's impossible to separate their sacrifice from the thousands of men who came before them, and the thousands more who have followed their path.

Thanks for posting this.
 

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OK, I have to be the bad guy twice today and keep it "Fair and Balanced". I'll try to do a better job at it than O'Really does.

There has been controversy regarding that attack for years. Many believe that FDR planned the attack with Japanese diplomats at the White House the day before. WHY? The country was in a depression and war is good for recovery. He didn't have to bring the country out of the depression, he could put t on the National Debt. There are also too many reports to ignore that Japanese radio transmissions were intercepted and decoded while the planes were coming but were dismissed.

Maybe all of that is true, may part of it is true, maybe it's all BS, but what irrefutably went down in history was that the United States was the only one to ever USE THE BOMB.

As you pointed out in another post LEVE, this s the season to think of others. Maybe some of your ancestors died at Pearl Harbor, and I'm sorry about that, but lets not forget those lives lost at the other end. They were people too. Realistically those people who died as a result of the bombs dropped on Hiroshima (August 6, 1945) and Nagasaki (August 9, 1945) have done more to protect us than those who died at Pearl Harbor. After seeing the devastation, nobody has dared use atomic/nuclear weapons since.
 

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I take it you've never seen pictures of Hamburg and Dresden (spll?) then Taz? Same with Tokyo and a host of other Japaneese cities.

There's no a whole lot of difference between Hiroshima and all those cities. It comes down to the lesser of two evils. You want radiation hanging around after? or thousands of fires?

Good post Leve.
 

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Great post, Larry..... That December morning did change the world...eventually. I'm not a subscriber to the Roosevelt-in-bed-with-Tokyo theory; since on analysis, it is preposterous. FDR WAS ALREADY doing plenty to antagonize the Japanese in other ways, and our own military buildup was at that juncture gathering speed and would have wiped out the depression without intentionally letting our folks in Pearl Harbor get murdered. The atom bomb is the best thing that ever happened to us militarily.....except maybe for RADAR. Without the bomb, hundreds of thousands of GIs would have been killed by suicide boats, suicide planes, suicide bicycles, suicide taxicabs, suicide vegetable carts...YOU NAME IT. G2 had GROSSLY underestimated the Japanese capacity for homeland defense....all centered around the suicide concept......so our GIs would have been killed by the thousands. I am personally acquainted with a WWII vet who was ON HIS WAY to the Pacific to help in the invasion of the Japanese home islands when news of the bomb and the surrender came to their ship. The feeling throughout the ship was: "We are actually going to live after all." Those GIs had already assumed they would be killed; since the knowledge of how the invasion of the Japanese homeland was likely to go was only too well known. They all knew it was going to be exterminate-them-or-be-killed, just like it was in the island-hopping campaigns of the Pacific where the entire enemy forces of say; thirty-thousand were typically wiped out down to less that two-thousand in some cases. All of the do-gooders who aren't old enough to remember ANYTHING connected with WWII sniff and cry about the few civilians who got roasted by the A-bomb.....deservedly.....and never stop to think about the number of GIs we lost at GUADALCANAL, TARAWA, IWO JIMA, and the rest of the Pacific strong points held by the Sons-of Nippon. My cousin was a Marine bulldozer operator and the brass in charge of the invasion forces wanted him and his Cat UP FRONT, ON THE BEACH, ASAP so he could begin covering up hundreds and hundreds of enemy corpses; many of which were suicides when they ran out of ammo. Either way they were dead and that's just the way the enemy wanted it. An A-bomb is perfect for an enemy who doesn't value his life OR yours. I wouldn't trade the entire wartime Japanese population for even ONE of our GIs. The FDR-TOKYO-BERLIN Axis is just another politically-correct revisionist myth.
Have you heard that George Washington ran a bordello at Mt Vernon? Film at eleven.
 

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Dave great post ^


My Dad served on a sub tender in the Pacific and fought the Japs on on islands when attached to shore duty. He remembers things not in history books of the atrocities that were delt out to our Gi's and all loyal to us on those islands. The war time Japanese had no idea they would be beaten and subscribed to no rules of war on any terms but their own, (as if any rules of war exhist other than the Geneva Convention). They did this in China and other areas of conquest.

Batan in India was just one.

I'm rambling again


sorry
 

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i was also thinking of this.. and called my grandfather.. who invaded some of those islands.. i have learned more and more of what he endured over my last 15 years in the Corps.. after his second purple heart.. he was shipped back to pearl harbor.. where he finished out his enlistment..

good posting gentlemen...


here is too all the WWII vets.. THANK YOU.
 

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In reply to:

… and our own military buildup was at that juncture gathering speed and would have wiped out the depression without intentionally letting our folks in Pearl Harbor get murdered.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so educate me, I don't see it. The US was still in the depression that had begun with the stock market crash in '29. Banks had failed and many of those that had any money, didn't anymore. My grandfather owned a grocery store and my mother carried shopping bags full of food to school so that the other kids would have enough to eat for lunch. The government was operating WPA and had other programs, but they weren't showing a lot of progress.

FDR saw war as the way out but congress had already refused to allow him to involve the US. Back then, the President had to have the approval of Congress to declare war unless we were attacked, he didn't have the option to go to war and call it a "police action".

The plan was carried out so we know the plan. In a depression, the money still exists, it just isn't moving around fast enough for everybody to get their hands on some while it passes by. What FDR had to do was to get money into the hands of the public but get most of it back fast enough to give the same money back to them. The money that didn't come back was going into circulation, so that was good. War is the perfect answer. First a good deal of the male population was inducted into the military so the government was paying them. The military needs food, clothing, weapons, transportation and housing. Producing these items gets the rest of the men and many of the women into the work force.

To have the money to keep paying the military and buying product to support them, the money that was paid out has to come back. Outrageous taxation ain't gonna be popular so the plan is to claim shortages and ration all products. Patriotism can be used to convince people to do without for the boys "over there" and for the war effort to defeat the enemy. People have less now than they did before but they are happy about it because they have a purpose. Because they can't buy anything, they also have an excess of money. The banks had failed before so putting it there was not an option so it was either stuff it in a mattress or bury it in a jar in the back yard. FDR gave them a safer alternative with war bonds moreover these would further help the war effort.

Even not being an FDR fan, I have to admit it was a workable plan, PT Barnum would have been proud of it. The only problem was that it all depended on entering the war and Congress had already said no. FDR had already obtained "Dictator for life" status so who was Congress to tell him that he couldn't play with his toys? HE ran the country, not Congress. Hitler controlled Germany, FDR controlled the United States. So what if he got Japan to attack? There weren't any cable news channels to keep the public informed. The public listened to the FDR fireside chats on the radio and they would believe what he told them to believe. After all, he had been successful at keeping that wheelchair a secret.

Yep, I not only think that it was possible, I think it probably happened. I don't know what would have happened to our economy and the world in general had we not gotten into that war or even delayed our entry. I can see where it might not have worked out so good but I'm pretty comfortable with my belief as to HOW we got in.

In reply to:

The atom bomb is the best thing that ever happened to us militarily.....

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing is certain, it's better to give than to receive.
 

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Thanks Larry and Dave, that is some


BUT,,,,,,,,,,,,I find it so ironic that all these Americans died, fighting for rights of other seemingly ungratful Americans to have the right to say(and write) such rude, uncaring and ignorant statements like some absurd FDR/Tokyo conspiracy theory.

You may have the right to say whatever you want, but don't forget why you can, and just out of respect, you should'nt say some things on days like today.
 

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Thanks Leve!

I used to call my grandad every December 7th. He fought on Okinawa and a couple other islands. He recieved the purple heart when he was injured in shellfire. He died peacefully in 1999.

My great uncle Fred was running a motor whaleboat in Pearl right after the bombing. Family legend is that it's his boat you see in foreground in that famous video of the motor whaleboat heading in with a sinking battleship behind it. I don't know if that's true. However, he once remarked that you could still hear the trapped sailors in the Arizona after she went down--for a while. Again I wasn't there, so I don't know if it's true, but it still chilled my blood when he said that.

On the other side of the conflict I lost a distant cousin on the Bismark.

A friend that was in Hawaii a few years ago visited the Arizona memorial. He watched a high school "punk" being asked to leave the memorial because he had spat on the deck...because the 'guide' showing the high school class around had rightly called it hallowed ground.

War is an sorry endeavor, however, sometimes it is unavoidable or nessecary and we should always keep those that keep our freedoms in our prayers.







BTW Taz, one of these days you'll say something positive about our goverment, and I'll fall over in shock. *grin*
 

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I THINK it was from within the sunken battleship CALIFORNIA that they heard tapping sounds up until december 24th. It MAY have been the USS OKLAHOMA, I just cannot recall for sure.
Time and band width prevent me from taking the TAZ's post apart bolt by bolt and going over the inaccuracies, but just let me say that it is a somewhat naive and idealzed version of how economics actually work; and more specifically what the issues at work in Depression Era America actually were. FDR was a sly fox.....a perfect match for Stalin, Hitler, and the rest of his contempories, and he KNEW how to get around congress, but he couldn't manipulate to the extent that was indicated in the TAZ post. The problems that stemmed from the '29 crash were related to LIQUIDITY and were, in part, due to building the stock market; and one heck of a lot of other businesses; on margin rather than on cash. It took a long time for the brick and mortar to catch up with the purported value of the stocks that were sold, and as soon as people realized that there wasn't any actual cash money around, everything that was credit-related.....like farming for just one example.....was wiped out for lack of cash. Our wartime industries were already buzzing by 1940, cranking out stuff that FDR hoped to sell to the Brits. The JEEP was a product of that hurried-up wartime buildup before Pearl Harbor. So you see, the machinery was already IN MOTION; there was no real need to kill the twins on the Arizona to break the depression.
 

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Dave you could be right about it being the California or the Oklahoma. I was an awfully young pup when I heard that. Uncle Fred's been gone for a while.

Either way: *shudder*

 

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When I first heard of that I was pretty young (I am waaaaaayyyyy to young to remember pearl harbor) but I was awestruck that we *couldn't* get to the guys inside. When I was that young I had no idea just how much steel was between the water and the bulkhead, and then to try and figure how something so massive would float in the first place....

I havn't been to the arizona memorial (or hawaii for that matter) but is on my list of places I want to see someday.
 

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Taz,

While you may have the right to say what you want, it's more a matter of showing some class. There are days in any countries' history that become hallowed and deserve some respect. I'm sure when 9/11 rolls around nobody will appreciate your 'opposing view' then too much either. Sure, you'll have the 'right' to say what you want, but show a little class for those who served at the time and for those families that suffered loss.
 

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Is there a day when it's inappropriate to search for the truth? Is it more appropriate to hide one's head in the sand and not ask why? Is the anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack more sacred than any other day on which people died? People die every day. People died on Dec. 7, 2003. Do they not count? I never noticed people having antlers where we count the points to determine which is a better trophy than another.

During WWII many people died. Should the ones that died at Pearl Harbor overshadow the rest of the deaths? Are Americans the only ones that count? Don't the English count? I know the French and Canadians don't count. They disagreed with us over Iraq so we're mad at them. First we were mad at them because they opposed our attacks on Iraq for suspected WMDs, that is what the UN vote was about, not that the Iraqis were somehow involved in 9/11, not liberating the Iraqi people. Now we are even more mad at them because we haven't proved them wrong by producing those WMDs.

The Russians that died as our allies don't seem to count either, maybe because of that Cold War thing. Now the Germans and Japanese deaths can't count, they were the enemy and we caused those deaths so they were a good thing. Have I got it so far?

What about the people who were permanently injured and lived the rest of their live without an arm or a leg or the use of it? How about the ones that were lucky enough to have only lost something as insignificant as a lung or a kidney? Are they not worthy?

How about the lives lost in the rest of the wars? We're talking about WWII here, obviously the suffix indicates that there was one that preceded it. Do we chose to remember WWII because it is more recent history than WWI? What about Vietnam? That was even more recent but should we sweep the embarrassment of that one under the rug and forget the lives lost there?

Wars are fought and it doesn't prove the looser wrong. I'm not sure that there are any real winners but if there were it wouldn't prove them right. Try to settle differences without wars and loss of life (or what do we call that now to de-humanize it, collateral damage?). God is NOT an American, we are not the chosen people meant to beat the rest of his creations into submitting to our views and values. Now, if you get backed into a corner, FIGHT!

What about 9/11? 15 terrorists died that day too. They knew they were going to die when they boarded the planes. Did you ever wonder what was so important to them that they intentionally gave their lives for something that they'd never live to enjoy? I don't agree with their tactics, but then don't agree with our attacks on Iraq either. Should I forgive the United States for attacking Iraq based on what appears to be faulty data and misinformation yet hold others to a higher standard because they are not Americans and their attacks were on us? If you feel that way, what do you perceive the feelings of the Iraqi people to be? Should we be proud that we exterminated Saddams grandson? Is it a matter or heredity and the world is better of without him? How are you going to explain that loss of lives of their countrymen, bombed out cities, being jobless without water and with part time electricity as all part of their liberation/salvation?

We also blame the Canadians for letting five of those terrorist through customs the morning of 9/11. What should they have done? My information is that all five had valid visas. Should Canada have denied them the right to enter the US? The way I see it no matter what they did, it was going to be wrong in somebody's opinion. Maybe if the United States was more careful who it gave visas to it would help.

What about those who died on April 19, 1995 in Oklahoma City when the Murrah Federal Building was bombed? Are they not worthy of remembrance? Or is it that the 9/11 date is just much easier to remember. And if we are going to remember 9/11 over all the rest, why do we tend to forget the people that died on all the planes? We tend to remember the people in the buildings and the firefighters doing their job, but others died too.

I'll not mourn for the dead, it's over for them, but rather for the relatives they left behind. You want sentiment, then I'll restate it as for the children who watch out the window for a daddy or mommy that is never going to come home again. For the wife, who still out of habit, sets that place at the table for a husband that won't be dining tonight. For the husband who in their sleep reaches out for a wife that is no longer in the other side of the bed. For the children that won't be taking any more trips to the zoo with grandma and grandpa.

If you wish to honor the dead, don't leave anybody out whether they died fighting for freedom, doing their job in a bombed building or for whatever reason. Still, is the soldier who fought for freedom and lived, less deserving of your thanks? Does he have to be an American to be honored for fighting for what he believed in?




Now, back to the more objective discussion. Dave, I don't see selling to Britain being a fast enough recovery to satisfy the people. People were standing in soup lines to eat, competing for contracts to make war supplies would have been received less favorably than Reagan's so called "trickle down economics".

What caused the Great Depression is immaterial to the discussion but, like so many things, I'm not sure history recorded it correctly. The news keeps telling me that the current recession is a result of 9/11. I saw it two years before that, even commented to a hard core Democrat that I almost hated to se a Republican President get elected in 2000 as he would be blamed for it. I even requested that he write my statement down and we'd open it a few years later. He didn't and he forgot the discussion, he just keeps telling me that it's all Bush's fault.

Even before I made my prediction, we saw two "market corrections" under Clinton. Ignoring those reminds me of somebody driving down the highway and their car misses and hesitates a couple times then recovers only to completely stop a few miles later. They usually comment that they don't understand it, it was running fine and then just up and quit.

 

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In reply to:

Is the anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack more sacred than any other day on which people died? People die every day. People died on Dec. 7, 2003. Do they not count? I never noticed people having antlers where we count the points to determine which is a better trophy than another.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that 2000+ Americans that died horrible deaths in one day are not deserving of a day honoring them? Just because "people die every day?"
Those individuals that you mention that died on December 7, 2003 will be remembered by those close to them.

People tend to remeber historic events (often tragic) that are turning points to thier culture or the world. We couldn't possibly remember or honor every single death in the world.

Do you remember the day that my grandfather died? Of course not, and I don't expect you to. It's an important day to my family and my family only, just as Pearl Harbor Remembereance day is an important Day to this country, but not others. I couldn't possible stop to honor every person that dies in the world, nor every anniversary of a tragic event in the world. I can, however stop to remember those close family and friends that died and those few anniversaries of American turning points, be they tragic or not, so that I can do my part to ensure that history does not repeat itself.
 

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-snip-OK, I have to be the bad guy twice today and keep it "Fair and Balanced". I'll try to do a better job at it than O'Really does.-snip-

You "have to"? No you don't have to, I think you do this with the sole purpose to piss people off. Do you really think people's viewpoints are going to change because of your contradictory ramblings? You attacked a very good post to hi-jack it and change the focus to YOU and what YOU think. This thread is about remembering people that died for YOU, but YOU seem to think they are not worth remembering,
It's times like these that I wise this BB had an "Ignore List".

I'm not clicking to this thread again,,,,,,YOU already ruined it.
 

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Sadly to say, what this post has degenerated into is a large part of why I just don't care to stop by here much any more.

You're right Taz, it's a conspiracy, just continue to live in your little world and wear the tin-foil so the black helicopters won't be able to see your thoughts.

To everybody else, good post, my thoughts are with all who gave their lives.
 
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