I woulde LOVE to race mine at least once, maybe drop on some 33" swampers and race in some sort of stock or 4 popper class...

TEX? any thoughts?

<a href="http://www.tennessee4x4.com/toyota">

 

Rules vary all over the place. What I've found is that typically the "bog" style events will be more concerned with tire sizes & the "drag" style events concentrate the rules more on motor mods. Most "bog" events that I've found do not have a dedicated 4&6 cylinder class, but some do. Most of the "drag" events DO have a 4&6 class. At my races, I handicap the V-8's by making them pull a minimum vacuum reading in my lowest "Drag" and "bog" class. For small motors & stock V-8's it's really important to have a tire you can turn - especially in the deeper mud. That generally rules out any kind of Bogger & the wider TSL's. Things like 32x9.50's, 34X9.50's, 33X12.50's work real well - as well as the P78 Buckshots. The vast majority of "bog" style events I've found will have either a 33" or 35" class as the lowest class. Normally, you have to run mufflers, gas only, max of one carb or factory injection, no NOS, & may be required to provide proof of registration. Depending on how lax the rest of the rules are, you could end up racing against some pretty hot competition. At our MMOR (Mid-Missouri Off-Roaders) events, we've had folks place in the top 4 with both 4 and 6 cylinder engines in the 33" class - even with as many as 45 entries in that class. To the best of my knowledge however, the winners have always had V-8's. At the two G.U.M.B.O. events I did last summer, the winner of the 35" class at the first event was a stock 4.0 Wrangler with 50% tread on his 34X9.50's. A guy with a 350 & 35" Boggers won that class at the second race, but he barely squeaked by on the 17" vacuum rule. This year, we upped it to 19" for V-8's & V-10's.

David, you might want to try the Indianapolis Jamboree Nationals the final weekend of September. That's not too awful far for you & their class I is a dedicated 4&6 cylinder class. Expect to see over 4,000 show trucks there & a TON of mud racers of all levels. There's no prize money in your class - just trophies for 1st through 5th.

Sandman, you might want to also look for a Jamboree in your area. Not sure what part of MI you're in, but I know there's an Upper Peninsula Mud Drag Association (there's a link to it on my page under the "sanctioning bodies" link). Can't remember any of their rules off-hand, but you might want to check out the link. If you tell me what class you want to run & what the rules are, I might be able to give you some helpful tips!

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

In reply to:

The vehicle must have complete O.E.M. body in appearance

What's that mean, TEX? Does that mean, I can't have any fender trimming to get some bigger tires under there without a lift bigger than 6 or 8"?

Tim
"The_Sandman_454"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 6" lift, 35x12.5s & '85 GMC S15 4x4

 

That's an interpretation that could change from tech inspector to tech inspector. My strict interpretation of that would be no trimming - or at the very least, no cutting of the bed/floor/etc. But, it could just mean that any fiberglass replacement parts must retain O.E.M. dimensions (meaning, no "floppy" front clips). I'd try to get in touch with someone in the group for a more specific answer.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

So Sandman, what are you planning to race? The 'burb, or the S truck?

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

I'm not sure... I'd have to say the 'burban, because it's got a little more power than the tiny 2.8L in the S truck (before the massive swaps in the S truck begin hopefully sometime soon), and to run bigger tires on the S truck, i'd have to get it geared, and the front end is quite weak, from what I've been hearing, so I'd probably end up breaking it... I actually don't remember how much manifold vacuum it has at idle... I think it's right around 15", but I can't remember for sure... /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif Before it races anywhere, it's still going to need tranny work, I haven't had a chance (or the spare cash) to take it out and get it rebuilt... Which truck would you race if you had my two choices, TEX? /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Tim
"The_Sandman_454"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 6" lift, 35x12.5s & '85 GMC S15 4x4

 

Well, unless they had a dedicated 4&6 cylinder class that ran on pretty darn shallow mud, my vote would have to go to the 'burb.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

I have raced my 86 toy here in FL before. What a blast! I have done both drags and bogs. The drags seem to be more sand and water than mud, and it is simple to get through. The bogs are MUD! I have never made it through the ones around here. if you are thinking of running it DRM keep the 35's on and forget the crawl ratio!! And bring waders.



Dave
86 w/33's
Stuck? I aint stuck!

 

I kind of figured the 454 powered beast would be the more likely one... /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif The gearing is way too high (numerically low) in the 'burban now with the 35's... It'll go quite a bit over 100mph, only tried it once, just like most people do when they get a vehicle that's new to them, just to see what she'd do... /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif I'm definitely going to need to change gearing in the diffs... When the time arrives to get either a set of Swampers, Boggers, or a mix of both, I'm going to want something in the 40" or so size area... The 14 bolt FF in the rear hangs down a bit so that I don't get as much ground clearance with the 35's that other axles get, and that gets a bit important for me sometimes... Hmmmm, what would make good gears for tires that size (keep in mind it'll still have the TH350 and N203 t-case)? How about lockers? /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Tim
"The_Sandman_454"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 6" lift, 35x12.5s & '85 GMC S15 4x4

 

Sandman, with your big heavy 'burb, you'll probably want to go to one extreme or the other with gears. With a 2:1 low (NP203) & a TH350, combined with 39.5's, I'd either go for 3.73's or 4.10's to run 1st gear, or drop all the way down to 5.13's & try to run 2nd. I've got a buddy with all one-ton stuff under his Blazer & a pretty hot 454 (.060 over, 12:1 compression, L88 cam). He's got 4.56's & can't quite turn 2nd gear in the thick stuff with 39.5's, but he screams like hell in first. In his case - and I suspect in yours as well - 4.56's end up being an "in-betweener" gear. He's got more motor than he can use in 1st gear & runs out of tire speed, but the engine doesn't have quite enough ummpff for such a heavy vehicle to run 2nd. You definitely won't want Boggers on the front & honestly on such a heavy vehicle, I'd probably skip 'em on the rear as well. Super Swampers will tend to pull you forward even as momentum bogs down where Boggers will dig straight for China.

Now, all this changes if you want to get serious about racing this sucker in relatively shallow mud. There, the tire of choice is the 38.5X11 Bogger at all 4 corners.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

What do you think of a manual valve body on the TH350? /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif I still like the idea of shifting my own vehicle, but without the clutch, I can't see how I'd lose nearly as much momentum as I would if I had to use a clutch and move a shift mechanism... How would a manual valve body behave on the street? Would it work ok? How much power do you think that beast (your buddy's 454) puts out? 12:1 compression? Is it able to be ran on pump gas? What would 5.13's do to my final drive ratio, and more importantly, the speed of this thing on the road, and about what RPM? I'm not sure on the calculations, or I'd calculate the stuff... /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

About how light does the vehicle have to be to run Boggers? Something like the mini-truck, S10/little toyota size? /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ran swampers on sand? How'd they do? What size did you use? It's recommended to air the tires on sand down to at most 18psi, and generally 5-10 psi... I noticed from the interco website, that they are mainly 16.5" rims, and I heard those can't be aired down much or they'll break the bead, correct? /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

It's good to know the mud finally got it's own forum /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

Tim
"The_Sandman_454"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 6" lift, 35x12.5s & '85 GMC S15 4x4

 

Yeah, a full manual valve body (and a ratchet shifter) is the way to go if you want to slap the shifter around. Stick shifts are strictly for playing around. If you want to race, you need an automatic - at least in the V-8 classes anyway. My pal's 454 is probably putting out around 550HP & runs on a mix of 93 & 108. He didn't really build the truck to race & it's pretty heavy. And now that it has a nice paint job, it stays clean most of the time. His motor is sort of a hand-me-down. His brother sold it to him when he built his 427, and that 427 is now in storage as that guy now runs a 488 (that's the S-10 I often mention). The 488 BTW is putting out nearly 800HP/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif.

For Boggers in the deep, thick stuff I've noticed that as vehicles get much over 4,000 lbs, Boggers on the back become less effective & Boggers on the front are true performance killers. Definitely, over 5,000 lbs & I'd probably just run TSL's all the way around. Boggers just suck so my HP & they won't self clean at low speeds the way TSL's do. I know only two guys making good use out of Boggers at all 4 corners in deep mud (not counting "rail" type machines) - both with 39.5's. The first has a CJ2A with a 427 Ford & nitrous, & the second one has a Land Cruiser with a 477" Chevy & nitrous. Get this: the guy in the Land Cruiser has a 3.50 rear & a 3.07 front, TH350 & 205. He runs 2nd gear low range at 7,500 plus RPM's. Here's the really crazy part. He bought that motor used for $1,500 & has spent relatively little on it (just rings & bearings and I believe a little head work). What a steal!

I ran my 38X12.50 Swampers on the sand ONE time. It was real dry, loose stuff. The guys with the fatter tires did a lot better.

You don't want to air down 16.5" tires because of the way the bead seats on the rim. 15 & 16" rims have a much better bead - even on totally stock, non-beadlocked rims.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

There are a couple of different RPM formula's that are real handy.

First:
FD*MPH*336/TD = RPM

Second, turn that one around for:

MPH = (RPM*TD)/(336*FD)

In each case, FD = Final Drive, TD = Tire Diameter, RPM = RPM, & MPH = MPH.

I use both to try to plan "appropriate" gearing. Now, if you want to drive on the highway with 5.13's & 39.5's, it's gonna be humming.

5.13*60MPH*336/39.5 = 2,618 RPM's

4.56's would work better on the road:

4.56*60MPH*336/39.5 = 2,327 RPM's

BUT, 4.56's won't work as well in the deep mud. You won't have enough gear to pull 2nd. But, you should with 5.13's. So, figuring 5,000 RPM's, you'd get the following tire speeds:

(5,000*39.5)/(4.56*2*2.52*336) = 25.58 MPH

(2 is your T-case ratio & 2.52 is 1st gear)

For 5.13's, you can probably run 2nd (1.52)

(5,000*39.5)/(5.13*2*1.52*336) = 37.69 MPH

So, you can see how the 5.13's would be better in the thick stuff. But, since you have to drive it on the road, that's why I said it might be best to either go with 5.13's or the opposite extreme. With 4.56's, you're going to scream in 1st gear, but not have enough umpff to go to second. With a 454, you should be able to turn 1st gear with 39.5's & 4.10's or probably even 3.73's - even as heavy as your 'burb is.

So, with 4.10's in 1st:

(5,000*39.5)/(4.1*2*2.52*336) = 28.45 MPH

With 3.73's in 1st:
(5,000*39.5)/(3.73*2*2.52*336) = 31.27 MPH

So, even while the 4.56's would provide better acceleration, 3.73's & 4.10's would provide better overall tire speed based on the limits of your RPM's & gear selection.

Now, another option for you to consider is getting a 208 T-case. The 208 has a 2.61 low range. So, you could run 4.10's to let the motor loaf on the highway & still zing 2nd gear pretty hard in low range:

(5,000*39.5)/(4.1*2.61*1.52*336) = 36.14 MPH

This option works out real well for an awful lot of guys around here. The 208 isn't quite as durable as a 203 (which isn't quite as good as a 205), but it's not bad.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

Thanks for the advice, TEX! /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif Got any general driving tips for the mud races, or mud in general? Anybody? /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

Tim
"The_Sandman_454"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 6" lift, 35x12.5s & '85 GMC S15 4x4

 

I have been the tech inspector for the UPMDA for the last few years. So if you have any questions fire away.

 

General driving tips? Grip the wheel & mash the gas!!! It's generally (but not always) a good idea to follow the ruts everyone else runs. That way you don't have to cut your own path.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

I use to run a 80 toy w/36" in the modified four banger class
when they still had mud boggs at Moroso Motor Sports Park,
even got in the money 5-6 times(not a lot of compition)
in the mud I ran boggers out back and sup swampers in the
front. the main thing is to stand on the go pedal (as close to
redline as you wallet can take) to keep the tires from loading up
don't wear good cloths and laces you shoes tight- one of my sneaks
is still out there somewere

HAWG WILD
ALL THOSE WHO WANDER ARE NOT NECESSARLY LOST /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

 

Sandman, glad to see you are interested in competing. Where in Michigan are you? My brother and I are planning on going to the Lima Jamboree in May. We like the idea of a truck tug-a-war that they are going to have.

I am in Ohio, and there are 2 places that we go to for bogs. We always have a good time and they payout. They are not sanctioned, but pay the top 5 if memory serves me. The one place has two pits side by side and they let people play in it before competition begins,,, pretty nice, keeps the crowd involved and they pull you out. Some have made it through these pits.

The other one we go to, NOBODY has ever made it through. All kinds of stuff there,,, a Datsun 280Z on 39's.

We call both of them Hillbilly events, but a hell of good time.

See ya, RedDog

 

I'm in a small town a little west of Saginaw... Tug-o-war, huh? Hmmmmm That sounds like it could be fun. /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif What kind of surface do they have it on? Slick mud, pavement, dirt?

Tim
"The_Sandman_454"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 6" lift, 35x12.5s & '85 GMC S15 4x4

 

I think this is the first year for it. I would guess that they would do it in the grass. I found it on http://www.familyevents.com I think it would be /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif to watch parts break.

RedDog

 

Some day me and a friend of mine that has a Fo#* diesel are going to go frame to frame on a nice slick surface, and let 'em go, see whether the big block has the brute torque to pull the diesel backwards... I'd bet what ever we use to hook 'em together will snap before either of us go anywhere, that or we'll both just dig in so bad that we'll have to get a bulldozer to get us pulled out... /wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif I bet I could smoke that Fo#*... I just need taller tires than my 35's I have now, because my diffy's like to get hung up on the high part of the ground between the ruts on the dead end street I usually play on (that road has some very deep ruts).. That's the first and only time I've ever had that truck stuck (the Behemoth)... /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

Tim
"The_Sandman_454"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 6" lift, 35x12.5s & '85 GMC S15 4x4

 

Tim,

The Ford might getcha on this /wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif. The weight of the vehicle is the main thing with these. I am guessing his weighs more than yours, which already puts you at a disadvantage /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif. Lockers would help big time, otherwise you will end up with just one front and one rear tire spinning, unless you could get the high rpm possi that we like to call it.

I would use a big wide strap for the hookup.

Give me more stats on each vehicle. RedDog

 

I don't think that diesel stands much of a chance - especially if Sandman's 'burb is as heavy as he says (7,000 ). Reddog, you've been to the pulls. The diesels get clobbered. Anyhow, if you've got a receiver hitch, get a 7" drop hitch & plug it in upside down. Between this & your lift, it'll put so much lift on the rear of that oil-squisher, you'll drag him all over the place.

Incidentally, we had some locals do a pull-off with diesels recently. A 6.5 against a 7.3 turbo. The GM was pulling the Ford & got him out onto the pavement, shifted into 2nd (A/T) & blew the transfer case apart/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif. Then, the Ford dragged him back onto the lot. The IFS GM's really get good traction & there's a guy with a late one-ton that's dominating the "street" class in the local pulls.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

I didn't know that it weighed that much /wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif. I think he would win.

Tex,
Times are changing in truck-pulling. Diesels are winning stock class most of the time and the cheater stock class that we have. One Dodge tried the Pro-Stock class once a finished 2nd,, pretty darn good. My brother was beat at our local county fair by a Dodge Cummins Diesel. He has beat my bro 2 years in a row at the fair. We think we would have beaten him this last time if we had used different tires,, instead of the Ground Hawgs.

The rules at the ones we go to favor the Diesels. It seems as if the rules for the gas powered vehicles is stuck in the 70's era while the Diesel's rules are current.

Tex, You are right about the hitch setup, but the other dude should figure that out also,,,,, well you never know he does drive a Ford /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif.

See ya, RedDog

 

It's definitely going to be interesting to see what wins, eventually... /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif I think it's going to come down to who gets on the throttle first, and who gets into the area when their engine gets into it's heavy torque area first... My 454 seems to get the most torque around 3500 or so, but the diesel is already basically making all of it's torque right off idle... Sound about right? Plus, since that big block has virtually no aluminum on it at all, it's definitely plenty of weight up front to get the tires some serious traction... /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif He had the diesel stuck in some snow because he couldn't get enough wheel speed fast enough to keep his momentum... As far as I know, it's just a naturally aspirated one, not a turbo diesel... My 203 t case will probably grenade itself during that pull.. I doubt the corp 14 bolt ff rear or (as far as I can tell) Dana 60 front will give out on that pull... /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif I'm going to have to drive Behemoth up on a scale sometime so I can see exactly what it weighs... Some equipment I usually carry is a regular floor jack, a couple jack stands, a fairly large tool box, myself, and some wood scraps... /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif When the body gets redone, it's probably getting on board air, and definitely some tie down points to secure all the "stuff" I keep in there... I usually just put the stuff between the front and middle seats... (No back seats, just empty back end)...

Tim
"The_Sandman_454"
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 6" lift, 35x12.5s & '85 GMC S15 4x4