[1446]

I've got this mountain of crudulous black crap resting on top of my valves surrounding the valve stem. I was removing my manifolds to address a crack in the exhaust man. and was able to look into the valve chamber. I wasn't pleased. It's very ugly. What direction should I go now? I'm hoping I don't have to take the head off. I've had a marble in a can ticking noise for some time... I'd imagine this didn't help any. What to do? What to do?

Any help appreciated... thanks

 

[CJDave]

Now if this was 1955 and I was working in the Grease Rag Garage in Oakdale California, I would simply take yer Jeep and give it "the treatment". Run it till it was good and hot......then pour dried rice into the carb a little at a time......then stand back out of the way of the crap that came out of the exhaust pipe. We could also pour ATF in the carb a little at a time and THAT would burn that carbon out as well.......OR.....we could use WATER to do the same thing. The reasonyou can't do that now-a-days is that you'd plug up the catalytic converter. In the old days when we bought a "granny" car.....one that grandma drove to the store and back and never really got out and got hot.....it was standard procedure to give it a "tonic" of ATF or the water treatment.

 

[Aaron871]

Yup, I grew up on a farm and dad used to pour water

in the carbs of the trucks that never hit the road (when they gunked up).

 

[Olin18]

That is an interesting trick. I have never heard of that before. I am interested

Because I do not have cats.

And I do have gunk.
I would assume that the rice acts as a kind of sand blasting agent. I am a little weary of that. Can there be valve damage. What about carb damage?
The ATF aproch seems a little more to my liking.
If one was to do this... How much, and how fast to you add said ATF. Are there any things that you should do for follow up?
And my last question is... Does spraying carb cleaner into the carb help this problem at all?

 

[Caver Dave]

Re: mountain of crap on my valves...YIKES!! HELP!

I grew up in a tractor shop...it works just fine. Like CJD said, it needs to be hot (operating temp) before you start. Drip (don't POUR) the ATF/water in at a rate just slow enough that the engine won't die.
I've heard the stories/advise about bending valves/punching holes in the pistons from dislodging (large?) chunks of carbon, but... we did it all the time on small engines (B&S,Tecumseh, Kawasaki, etc.) with aluminum heads, pistons, & blocks without damage. Not to mention the dozen or so old cars I bought at auction to drive on my uncles farm. The little Fiat900 I bought ($75 & it ran) took about 2 gallons of water to blow it all out. Stupid thing spit out chunks of carbon for over an hour! It ran fine for another year until I got it wedged between 2 trees and the Super "C" *wouldn't* pull it out. Proably still there...

Carb cleaner? Should remove the varnish from the carb.., but does little for carbon build up I'd think

 

[CJDave]

When I wuz in Hi-Skool I worked part time in a wrecking yard, and one of the guys there was an Okie......a GENUINE Okie who came out to Californey in the "Grapes of Wrath" days......and if there was a "Field Fix" for anything on a car he knew it.

Bacon rind in the rod bearings; using one std. and one undersized bearing shell in a rod to compensate for a flat crank;

horse poop to seal a leaky radiator;

bar soap to seal a leaky gas tank;

the list went on and on. He told me that the cold water hits the red hot carbon and when it does it causes the outer edge to shrink just enough to warp the carbon and pull it loose. You cannot use MINUTE RICE....it has to be dried rice. Point the exhaust pipe of the rig in the direction of Southeast Asia so the ejected rice kernels won't go to waste.

 

[uglyjeepoffroad]

4 wheel and Off Road had an aricle on the ATF trick not too long ago. They pulled the PCV hose and used the vacuum to pull a small amount into the intake from a jar. Seems like it may be a good idea to bypass the carb and go straight into the intake.
If that doesn't work, and you are worried about it, I have a head for sale, still in the plastic from the machine shop.

 

[027]

In reply to:

......then pour dried rice into the carb a little at a time......then stand back out of the way of the crap that came out of the exhaust pipe.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFLMAO,,,,, Dame Dave now you went a told how old we were.
I used that rice trick on a lot of 50's ventage Chevy's over the years,,, but you need to splain,, to them that the rice should be the Uncle Ben's converted rice not the hard long grain stuff. You can do some damage in the motor.

Looked like someone took a 12guage to the ground after I did that to a 59 Chevy one time that had a worn out ol 283 in it. After the treatment it purred real good

About the water,,, that was used buy the service techs at the dealership all through the 70's. It was standard procedure to take a 16 oz coke bottle of water and trickle it down the carb at 2k rpm on the rattling motors that came in all the old iron dukes that came in got it whether they needed it or not, in most cases they did

.

Remember the old pontiac 151 that was put in back in the early 80's, they had a terrible piston slap after a few 100 miles the "fix" was to pull the pistons and have them knurled

then replace them

Go figure........

Dam holes were out of round

Good post Dave!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RRich]

Rice - water - ATF - carb cleaner - paint thinner - Coke - all kinds of stuff. It can work, but at what risk?

Rice is good - and the side benefit is it scrapes the cylinder wall nice and shiney and makes them bigger - the rings slide sooo much easier because the cylinder is larger now. When rice burns it turns to hard carbon - the same material diamonds are made of, just a little softer.
BB's would work too - knocks the carbon off the valves, even small rocks, but you wouldn't do that would you? (I hope not.)

Water - any liquid - especially if it's cold - the coldness shatters the carbon letting it sluff off. I've seen big chunks get lodged on top of the piston and cause trouble - or it can get trapped under a valve -- but that's OK the piston will smash the valve head so it fits around the carbon.
Try soaking carbonized heads or valves in ATF, water, etc to see if the ATF will dissolve it - it won't. It's the coldness.

I had a mechanic while I was away from my shop pour water in a car in for a tune-up. A chunk got stuck, I had him pull the head off and fix it - at his own expense - when he finished he didn't have a job anymore. He knew better.

There is a safe way to remove it when it runs - Techron or GM's Carbon X. They work great. Add twice what the can says to the gas tank - like 2 cans to 1/2 tank. Drive it till the tank's almost empty, then change the oil. If you take it down after that you'll find the carbon's been slowly dissolved safely.

The other way is dissasemble and scrape it out.

One thing that's getting prevelant now - old gas -- when the cancer causing addative MTBE gets old, it forms a sluge that when it tries to burn it makes a real hard carbon deposit. Several times now I've seen vehicles that sat for a long time - like a year or so - then when restarted they carbon up super fast.
One a friend had sitting for a year and finally put new heads on it (454) - within 700 miles carbon built up so much it held a valve open and the piston hit it. When I took it down I couldn't believe how hard that carbon was. It even dulled a screwdriver I has using to break it off.

Techron - slow but safe.

 

[1446]

I love getting up on a nice christmas eve morning hoping to get a response to my dumb questions only to find several responses from obviously well informed selfishnessless people like yourselves....

Thank you guys so much for your time to help some guy for whom you know not. This forum blows me away. I hope each and every one of you have a phenomenal Holiday season and a great year to come. I'm feeling very warm and fuzzy.

Now back to business... ATF bypassing the carb straight to the intake.... or Techron or Carbon X twice the recommended rate..... any harm trying both>? I'm one of them soupbones that seems to think if one does good two will do better... "I ain't dumb, I got smarts real good". I love this place.

 

[RRich]

ATF - not sure how it will burn - could make even more carbon - at least that new carbon would be mostly below the valves.
Pouring anything, Techron ATF etc through the carb won't hurt the carb itself - may even clean it a little - but there too it's cold - not good. Whether directly through the manifold or carb it's still cold - compared to the cylinder combustion temperature of near 3000 degrees.

Hot valves - they aren't that 3000 degrees though, but still don't like cold - even cold air!
Notice it's inadvisable to run an enginme with just an exhaust manifold no pipes - or even without one. The cold air getting on the valves can bend them like a pretzel.

Pouring "stuff" down does work - but it is risky. Putting one bullet in a revolver, spinning it, then pointing it to your head is risky too - chances are it won't fire - 1 in 6? - but why chance it?

Many of the "old tyme" remedies do work - at least to a point - like a leather belt as a rod bearing, a big staple in the fan belt, bananas in the trans, water in the brakes, clothespins on the fuel line, etc - but for how long.

It sure would be interesting to hear some of the home remedies the Cubans have been forced to use out of necesity over the years. That would make a great thread!

 

[1446]

I may get laughed at for suggesting this.... but here it goes; is it stupid to have a vacuum hose reduced to a small enough size to accompany a scraping tool and try to physically remove a majority of the carbon build up through the opening while the manifold is off>?

I'm ready for the barrage of ridicule...

 

[Dirt Dog]

Great thread.
RRich I have one for you.

I feed my jeep almost a strict diet of retread junkyard gas. (it's free)
It is a mixture of old, new and maybe even a little diesel.

My plugs always look great and the burn looks right.
While I haven't looked at anything more, how bad do you think mine is carboned up?

I also have to add that I have always had to keep the engine timing a little more retarded than stock because of the varying grades of "crappy" fuel to make sure it didn't ping. (and it always has run great)

But lately it was starting to ping so I tried the water trick. It didn't do anything. Booster didn't do much. But fresh 93 cured it all. So I assume it was just a very low octane batch that time.

So back to what you mentioned........almost all of my fuel is 6 months to 2 years old. My 258 and all small engines run on it. Would it even be worth the effort to pull manifolds to look seeing as it runs fine with fresh gas? (but it does seem to take higher octane than it used to to not ping) I've been running this for years (6) in my C-10 (350) and the heep.

 

[RRich]

Wow - that's neat! No doubt you are getting all kinds of stuff. I'll bet you go through filters every once in a while too.
I wonder if you are in an area where they don't use MTBE? Some states won't allow it in their fuel. Some states have enough guts to tell the Feds, the greenie nutcases and the oil companies to go jump! The MTBE gets in the water supply and poisons it. California politicians readily accept the bribes so we've had to shut down untold numbers of water wells. But it's not a problem, in a few thousand years they'll be usable again.

I rather doubt just one tank of "new" fuel would clean it enough to stop the pinging if it was carbon. Like you said, probably was just full of really bad gas that time.

I think I'd toss in a can of Techron every once in a while just to prevent problems though. Do it the last tank or so before an oil change. For some reason, as the label suggests, some of the cleaning agents must not burn, they may get in the oil and kill the lubrication qualities.

About the only way I know of to tell if you have lots of carbon would be a compression test - it'll show high - but it wouldn't show what's stuck on the back of the valves.

As far as trying to clean the valves through the ports I doubt it'll be very effective. And I'd worry about a big chuck hiding where you can't vacuum it out - possibly causing damage when you start it.

By the way - about the only stuff I've seen that actually does much disolving of carbon (cold) is laquer thinner. Even then it has to soak awhile. Good for cleaning lifters, pushrods etc. Hard burned on carbon it doesn't do much.

And then -- after it's clean, you need to make sure it won't form again. An overly rich mixture is usually the culprit. Not just idle mixture, but throughout the entire RPM range.
Best, easiest way to get your mixture on track - use the propane trick - do a search. It'll cost you about $10 to make the tester, but you'll use it the rest of your life.
I don't know if it's still searchable, it's been awhile.
If need be I'll post it again. IT WORKS!

 

[Dirt Dog]

LOL on the filters. Why yes I do. (I run dual filters) And we do filter the gas several times before going in the final storage tanks. But there is still a good bit of fine sediment that slips by.

It's just hard to pass up free gas. I change filters about once every 3 months. ($6) So it's not a bad bargain deal.

And I have no idea if we have that stuff in Ohio or not.

I just wondered about it since it ran fine on pump and not on the retread. I guess it's been getting weaker and weaker. I wouldn't think I had too much carbon build up because of the water thing and........the last time I drove it with the crappy gas it spark knocked so bad under load that not only am I sure it rattled every bit of carbon off.........I felt lucky it didn't take a piston with it.

 

[Guest]

This may be a dumb question but here it is anyway- if its cold out and the gas in the tank has had time to cool off wouldnt the cool gas going into the engine dop the same thing? Seems like if its the cold that does it it basically cleans itself. Im gonna try some water now in my engine and maybe some rice. Does the rice not get stuck in the carb?

 

[JeepnGreg]

Re: mountain of crap on my valves...YIKES!! HELP!

SEAFOAM!

greatest additive on earth (in case i havent said so enough times by now)

 

[RRich]

Yes gas in the tank's cold. Then when it goes through the carb it gets atomized and partially vaporized - even more heat is removed from expansion - now it's really cold. But at best it's a very fine mist, not big droplets like if you poured something in it. The vapor isn't enough to cold shock the carbon. Pouring it in the droplets are much bigger, the larger droplets are enough to shatter the carbon, then big chunks fly around. Same idea as pouring hot tea in an iced glass. Maybe the glass breaks, maybe not.

Something that always comes up - water injection - I think JC Whitney still sells it. The idea is a small amount of water is introduced into the manifold - but not near as much as if you poured it in very slowly. They always talk about the WWII P-51 Mustangs. Those used water injection to add more horsepower in an emergency - it really worked. The plane was able to get away from, or catch the enemy with much more speed.
But the promoters never tell the second part - the fact that when a Mustang returned with the water bottles empty the plane was grounded until the engine was completely rebuilt. By then the engine's got real troubles.
Why?
The water turns to steam - the evaporation process cools the mixture, allowing a denser air fuel mixture in = more power. When you cram more of the correct mixture in the cylinder you get more power out - ala supercharger. But at the same time the steam washes all the oil off the cylinder walls, wears the rings bad, as now it's metal to metal rather than sliding on a thin layer of oil. I'm sure everyone's heard of steam cleaning - everything in there's getting steam cleaned.

A leaking head gasket can acomplish the same thing - ever notice how clean those cylinders are?

The biggest danger in pouring a liquid in - or dumping rocks, rice, bb's, nuts, peanuts, Bon Ami, coffee grounds, marbles, etc in - is a big chunk of carbon can break off, and get stuck under a valve. When the piston comes up next stroke - it smashes the valve into the carbon, bending it. The other danger is it gets smashed between the piston and chamber roof - then gets stuck like that. You hear clunk clunk clunk like a rod noise. If you are lucky it'll come loose and blow on out. Sometimes it gets stuck and won't come out - then you have to go in and get it.
I've heard of it even breaking a piston, but never personally have seen it. I have seen it stuck to the roof and seen bent valves from it.
Yes, a chunk of rice possibly could get caught in the carb, but going down the throat it's not likely. The place that it may plug would be the tiny air bleed holes. If that happens, wash them with carb cleaner.

DO NOT USE BRAKE CLEANER - BRAKE CLEANER WHEN IT BURNS IN THE ENGINE FORMS A VERY DEADLY GAS - IT'LL KILL OR RUIN YOUR BRAIN!

If you look at all my posts over the last several years you can see I'm the conservative type - I try to take the easiest and safest path (and cheapest,) rather than just bulling into something. I believe in diagnosing it correctly, then doing it right - just once.

Go ahead - it's your engine - you have the right to treat it however you want.
And by the way - duck when you pull the trigger.

Let us know how it comes out - if you can.

 

[RRich]

Re: mountain of crap on my valves...YIKES!! HELP!

Ah yes - SeaFoam - You aren't the only one that's said it's great - they have several great products too. I've heard their auto trans addative is great too - haven't tried them though.
I saw on the can it also said to pour it down and let it soak - like most carb cleaners/carbon cleaners do. Same thing though - the possibility of a chunk.
Most instructions say to pour it down slow for 1/2 the can, then dump it fast to kill the engine, then let it soak for 1/2 hour or so.
Again, ya takes yo chances. If it does the job without damage - quick - go Vegas!

I'd like to try soaking a carboned up part in it to see just how effective it is.

And of course there are many types of "injector cleaners" and "carbon cleaners" that shops use. They all essentially just feed a cleaner of some sort into the engine via the fuel or vacuum system. They feed it faster than from the tank, but slower than drippling it yourself. They work too - priced anywhere from $25 - $150 for a shop to do it on yours.
But you can see the motivation - how can they charge $150 to add a small can of "magic elixer" to your tank?

Merry Christmas!

 

[1446]

I don't think that's a dumb question at all... I was reading about someone pouring in crushed walnut shells or rice but I thought for sure they could not mean while the engine was running... I thought maybe they meant somehow sandblasting with it while the engine was out. I'm sorry about asking for clarification on this but this rice (or walnut shells??!??) I pour how much into where while the engine is running at how many RPM's? Forgive me for I know not. Rice doesn't cake up between cat and the muffler anywhere>?

Again.... I thank all for their input.... seriously.