For what it's worth, Cappa came to my event last August & did a really nice writeup (May of this year). He was very friendly & professional in person, but I haven't read the article you mention. Which one is it? Page?

TEX

http://sites.netscape.net/gumboracing

 

There is something that bothsides have missed. Mark and I don't have much left of the s-10 we started with. I agree that who ever came up with the 2.8 should have one crammed! You see there are big differences in the first and those on the lot now. The one thing I agree with from the first to the one just rolling off the line today is the front end is a joke. The fact that a 4.10 is the deepest thing to get in the front and the cv boot thing really is sick. I never understood where this came from. And the front disconnect is silly too. I feel that way about the same thing in the dodge and jeep. Where did this idea come from? Anyway, I can see the editors point and I can also see ours. We do have a stout frame, and smallenough size to run with a CJ if we can get the groundclearance. By the way, What does he drive?

 

I am friends with Mark and I see his side very well. How many people put Chevy 350 in a jeep as well. How good dose a stock jeep really do? Not that good. One of my old friends had a 86 cj7 and I pulled him out moer times that I can count with my stock S10. No stock truck dose good off road or there would be no need for lifts and mods. I have ask Mr cappa to come to Colorado (and put up or shut up) for a shoot out.
Jeff Henderson
Asst. Webmaster @ s10-4x4.com

Diesel22

The best s10 4x4 web sight is http://www.s10-4x4.com

 

Tex,
The article is in the October issue of Peterson's 4Wheel & Offroad pg.124... I have read numerous article by him and this one really got to me as well as many others... Why you ask, because he singled the S10 out of every 4wd known to call a Monster Turd... There are many 4wd's I can think of that are much more trouble prone or much less buildable... He picked GM's 2.8 as a POS when in reality Ford had a 2.8 just as bad not to mention Jeep also had one at one time... He picked on GM's IFS and no-one elses... To top it off he insulted every S10 owner by asking if an S10 was even a real 4x4 followed by a picture of a 2wd Blazer... Am I mad because he picked out a few bad points of the 18+ year models of the S10s, no, I am Mad because he failed to mention there are many worse vehicles out there than an S-Series vehicle... Why name any one vehicle when in reality every vehicle has its flaws through the years... It's totally unfair to judge a vehicle by its worst points in history... To point to one vehicle and say simply that its a Turd is just beyond my grasp of being an editor...

75454,
Most people know me because of the Bad-Bowtie, the Burgundy Solid axle 383, 38 inch tire truck... What most people don't know is I own three of these vehicle not one... I own the big truck yes, I also own a daily driven Baby-Blazer equiped with 3in. lift, 31s, and 350... Other than that its bone stock... I don't have any problems with this truck what-so-ever... I also have a Big Block project 4x4 with around 1000 h.p... (The last one is still in the making stages...) Overall these trucks are pretty reliable with a few flaws in the early years as with any vehicle, I do not deny that, but I don't think they are a turd either...
Jeff,
You know me personally face to face and you know I will be the first one to tell you how much an S10 will handle before breaking... These trucks are pretty well built and concidering you can buy a used early model for under 2000 and add another 2000 and end up with a solid truck for any type of wheeling, who's to argue the point...

Bottom line,
Why should any editor call anyones vehicle names without having proof there is no worse or better to be had... I have owned my fair share of 4x4s and still do (5 at the moment)... I just don't see why he would call a vehicle that is just a capable offroad as most any other these days stock, has just as many aftermarket parts out there as most others, and is loved by so many a Turd...

Thank's for the input guys...

Bad-Bowtie,
M.Hall
Senior Assistant Webmaster @ S10-4x4.com
Mark@S10-4x4.com

Bad-Bowtie,
M.Hall

 

Give 'EM H*** Mark. If this vehicle is such a turd, then why haven't they scapped it years ago? I'd say 19 yrs old and going with the new designed Trailblazer with the inline 6 is just the beginning of the evo of S Series trucks. H*** we'll have 3 types then!!! And you should have heard the crap Motor Trend said Sunday on the Explorers!!!! They dogged them bad. Said it has been nothing but PLAGUED with terrible handling problems since the start and Ford came up with a new smaller 4x4 this year. And the Gov't has ordered Ford to redo the design of those Explorer trash trucks too. I cringe every time I'm on the interstate and have to pass one. I'm afraid it's going to lose a front axle(which I've seen recently on a new one), or a tire, or just sway into me!!! I've got an 89 S-15 and a 99 ZR2, and had a 97 ZR2. He should dog one of these beasts until he owns one!!! What about the write up on the new Toyota Tundra? It's getting bad reviews now too. They have a quote 4x4 package that's not much more than a dual exhaust and stickers and adds $5000 to the sticker. All trucks are plagued with some problem or another, Tom

 

I watched Larry Ragland run that strait 6 in a GMC Envoy up Pike's Peak this year, and all i can say is wow........
The race version of that engine is sweet.......
He was just screaming it, and he ended up with the fastest time this year.

I remeber reading in one of they're magazine's how 4Xer need to stick together instead of dogging on other's choice of rigs........
I personally believe it really doesn't matter what you drive (to an extent, i'm not taking about taking a mini cooper rock crawling), but the skill of the driver. I think alot of people put way too much weight in tire size, HP, and other things when they need to learn to drive better.

Get Dirty!!!

 

This has ben a growing topic for today. I am still pi**ed about it. I have ben back to this sight 6 time today just to see what you all are saying about it. The best part is the one of Petersen's other mag's Four Wheeler July 2000 issue did 4 or 5 page spred on a solid swap of a s10. And then a few mag's latter in Petersen's just rip the S10 apart. What kind of Penske reject would print a page like that any ways............... (Just how I feel)
Jeff Henderson

The best s10 4x4 web sight is http://www.s10-4x4.com

 

Here is part of the page that we are all mad about if you have not seen it all ready./wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif

Jeff Henderson
Asst Webmaster @ s10-4x4.com
The best s10 4x4 web sight is http://www.s10-4x4.com
My home http://www.geocities.com/diesel22_us

 

Hey Mark. This and 75454cid is me Greg P. I noticed the Word turd was their favorite word in that issue. I agree that trucks are built not bought. However there are aspects of the s-10 that show they were designed as grocery getters. My front end is still togather but I just don't like the thorsen bars hanging out from the protection of the frame with a lift. I can't complain about mine at all. I was worried about Tellico to be quite frank. The front is a problem. I have yet to find someone with a lock right in the front. That is just one issue but Even if the entire thing was a lemon I think the wording of the entire issue should be looked at. Don't call anyones ride a turd unless it is yours.
Greg

 

Maybe I'll just have to remind the folks at 4Wheel & Off-Road about the March, 1983 issue where the S-10 Blazer was picked as 4x4 of the year & the "turd" 2.8 was praised for its power - I $h1t you not! And the S-10 suspension has been copied by none other than the Explorer and - gulp - JEEP on their new KJ (the new Cherokee due out in 2002). And even though an S-10 doesn't have a solid front axle, the existence of an actual frame (unlike Jeep SUV's) allows that to be added later.

TEX

http://sites.netscape.net/gumboracing

 

Don't forget that the MacPherson Class 7 truck, although heavily modified, still runs a 4.3 litre v6 and so far hasn't been beat, for the most part.

Also, if you guys are that upset about it all, don't forget to write to your friendly Chevrolet corporation customer service center about how angry you are over the press this is getting. Magazines like that survive mostly on advertising. Cancelling your subscriptions is another way. Show them how pissed off you are by pulling your subscription money (you can usually get back the amount of your subscription in unmailed issues) and by supporting that GM pull their ads with the company!

Then see how far they get with their credibility!

J.R. /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

http://members.xoom.com/desertride/index.htm

 

J.R. I appreciate the sentiment, but I would stop short of writing to Chevrolet. Though none of us agree with Cappa's statement, the last thing I want to see is more sponsor-driven drivel in magazines that are supposed to be very subjective in their reviews. I'm so sick of wishy-washy reviews that don't tell you a damn thing because the mags are too careful not to bash the feelings of their advertisers. Write to the mag, tell them off, show them they're wrong, but don't ever discourage them from offering up an honest opinion - biased & off-base though it may be.

TEX

http://sites.netscape.net/gumboracing

 

kboggess-
You truly made a great point... Driver ability is 75% of hard trail riding, the vehicle is the other 25%... This was proved a while ago during our Jamboree when we had a stock 5spd truck and auto blazer (both on 30 inch tires) make it through the hardest trails of Uwharrie National Forrest... BTW in case you didn't know these trails were made for Jeeps sitting on 33s...
S10Blazer/75454-
In disguise eh Greg, almost forgot about the red truck... In your application as we have spoke of before the IFS is truly hurting you... With the V-8 and big tires the S10 is hanpered severely (no one said they were perfect) and a solid axle conversion is more suited for heavy trailriding... Tellico would definately be the place to stress it to the max for sure... Without 35s or bigger there you are a fool not to have a winch... Even with the bigger tires a winch will most likely be needed by the bigger more advanced drivers... Remember Tellico is in the top 3 hardest in the USA... The Trailmaster kit in Jeffs truck hold up very well to abuse (I have seen in face to face) with the V-6... With the V-8 I think its limited as you say though to mild offroading (or Mild throttle)...
Tex-
Great Point!!! I had not thought of that until reading your post... One of the worst years for the S10 and they had it as truck of the year... Conflicting themselfs just a bit wouldn't you think...
JR-
I have had over 40 people forward me what they sent to Mr. Jahn Cappa and trust me there have been subscriptions lost... Customer Service at GM is an idea I haven't thought about but will look into a contact for sure... Thanks...

Bad-Bowtie,
M.Hall
Senior Assistant Webmaster @ S10-4x4.com
Mark@S10-4x4.com

Bad-Bowtie,
M.Hall

 

I can agree with most of that, Tex. I work for a publishing company and we have two newsletters without advertising. We get to tell it like it is, and our subscribers generally really appreciate that!

Unfortunately when you have advertising you HAVE to be careful where you step. Ad dollars keep the mag in business! You'll probably see an "I'm sorry we said that" statement in next month just because Chevy got pissed off and already threatened to pull ads.

Do you really think these mags PAY for all the stuff they get to review? Most of the time, heck no! They do it for those wishy-washy reviews and some advert trading! In our case there are some occasions where companies WANT us to take their products to the test, only to make them a better product. Others do it so we can post the results so they don't have to compare themselves. It's weird sometimes.

J.R. /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

http://members.xoom.com/desertride/index.htm

 

J.R. as an insider, maybe you can help me with something that I've found to be baffling. All of the 4x4 mags (Four Wheeler being the worst) serve up these wishy-washy reviews, yet Motor Trend, Car & Driver & others don't seem to pull any punches. What's more, the car mags (despite this) seem to have a much better inside track to what's going on in Detroit/Tokyo/Hamburg - even when it comes to 4x4 stuff. This always struck me as odd. You agree???

TEX

http://sites.netscape.net/gumboracing

 

My "guess" is that it's all publisher-dependent. The boss could be making the strategy, and as long as he stuck to his guns he can be a survivor. In my opinion Peterson/EMAP (well specifically Peterson) has had that wishy-washy attitude for so long, it's part of the business formula. Now that they are part of the EMAP family, perhaps they will be willing to take a few more risks (hence this discussion)!

Here's perhaps a better reason for C&D/R&T advantage -- Here's all the magazines owned by Hachette Filipacchi:

Automotive
Car and Driver
Road and Track
Open Road
Cycle World
Enthusiast
George
Premiere
Travel Holiday
American Photo
Popular Photography
Sound and Vision
Car Stereo Review
Boating
Flying
Shelter
Elle Decor
Home
Metropolitan Home
Women
Elle
Woman's Day

I agree it's odd that some mags have the better scoop. But then again, are they looking for the information or waiting for a press release? My opinion for some is the latter answer. I'm willing to bet that Hachette has contacts and actually looks for a scoop. Perhaps the reputation Car & Driver, Road & Track have developed give that advantage.

J.R. /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

http://members.xoom.com/desertride/index.htm

 

In the editoral of Car Craft a few months ago, the former editor David F (no clue how to spell his name), stated that he got promoted cause the EMAP guys liked his odd style and how he didn't kiss advertisers asses. Motor Trend says that it is totally changing their format, but they will not say how yet.
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I hope all of EMAPs mags write Car Craft style articals.

Hit? Them tires rub. Rubbin's off roadin.
My web page
http://www.personal.psu.edu/bjh182

 

Most people know me as Krazy *******(a.k.a. Dave Randall). I haven't even read the article and i am fustrated by the statement by Cappa and even though I am currently in negotiations w/ Jon Williams(aka editor of fourwheeler) i am going to speak w/ him personally about his remark, just as soon as i can read the article for myself and have it in front of me.
As most people know, i do have an 83 model that gets tortured every chance i can get, so if cappa says these things can't take a beating, my front end has only had ball jts, the right front wheel bearing changed, and cv boots but is still going strong after 250k miles on it and the last w/ the 45-50k w/ the 350 behind it.

 

As I have been reading what all of you have to say, and some realy good points too, I still fell that he has gone too far. When I red this crap I called Mark to b*tch and vent about it. It was a 40 min cell phone call from Co to NC. And yes I am still mad about it. I am 22 years old and have been getting Petersen's from the age of 12. Back then it was to just look at all the trucks, and now it for all the hard core wheeling and tech tips. Petersen's has been getting worse every year about stuff like this. Most people read these rags for all the info on what they have or what they want to build as a 4x4. For a mag to point out the bad stuff on a 4x4 is a good thing so that a newbe can find a nice truck to start with or know what they are getting into. When a mag calls a hole truck a pice of crap that will turn off people to that truck. That is not what we want. It is all ready hard to find stuff for a S10. If people read that and don't want to build an s-truck it herts the rest of us. We all know that the more people that want to build a truck the more stuff there will be out there for it. Just look at jeep. Every 4x4 shop will have some thing to do with a jeep. It good business to have the most commen stuff in stock. How many times have you been at the 4x4 shop and had to order a part for your s-truck and seen a jeep guy walk in buy the same part (but for a jeep) and leave with it. Also the more people that want some thing will drive the price down as well. I payed $1200 for my trail master lift last year at dickcepeck. That was with a $300 discount. It cost too much to build these trucks as is and we don't need to drive up the prices with a lack of need. If a person is not as hard core the trail master lift and a body lift will be just fine. People like me and Mark that is just not going to do it. We mod our rigs so much that there is not much left but a body. So how can we tell them that what they said is wrong. Simple we all started with the same truck and did mods to fit are needs. Most people do not have the need to mod a truck like that. Or when they do it becomes a show truck and never gose off road. Every one is proud of what they have no mader what it is. If I had built a pinto onto a 4x4 I would be very happy about what I have done, and be very mad when some one dogs it. No mader what you have it was you money that went into it to make it what it is to day. If cappa had doged on all IFS this would not have been a big deal. I think that GM has made a better IFS than any other truck out there. Well maybe toy has got GM on that. I just hope that out of all this cappa has learned that not even a passport is a bad 4x4.
Boy I think I feel better now/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif If any one wants to read what I have e-mailed to cappa and what he has said back just drop me an e-mail. jeff@s10-4x4.com
P.S. Yes I can't spell to good so don't tell me........haha/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

Jeff Henderson
Asst Webmaster @ s10-4x4.com
The best s10 4x4 web sight is http://www.s10-4x4.com
My home http://www.geocities.com/diesel22_us

 

I saw that and thought that was kind of low. Could you imagine the reaction if they said that about a Jeep or Toy! I'd also email the Editor Cole Quinnel and let him know your feelings too:

quinnelc@petersenpub.com

Shawn
87 K5
few mods

 

The more I think about it the more I see axle swapping as almost a staple in the Mags. The funny thing is that a 4.3 and 700r are relatively hot swaps into jeeps. Also, The smaller bolt pattern on the later model jeeps don't impress me either. I'm worried about my small bolt pattern now cut it down .25 inches. I thought Dodge had that bolt pattern at one time and it pulled through the lug circles in the rims. We have everything from a stonecold stocker to The Markinater and everything in between. I'm game to meet and put the discussion to rest. Lets test. We have no lift, bodylift, suspension lift, suspension and body lift, and Marko lift. That is just the lifts. Get what I'm saying. I'll take a week off if it gets in the mags and sets the record straight.
Greg

 

Oh yea. Almost forgot. We don't have the frame cracks the earlier jeeps do and the dana 30 isn't much bigger than our front diff. The way I was explained by a guy at ARB was that we couldn't have an air locker due to room in the carrier "just like the jeep dana30." Just figured I'd share that.
Greg

 

Check out what Four Wheeler thinks of the S-10. http://s10-4x4.com/download/s10-sfa-03.jpg
Look at the first line...
Greg

 

I make a point of it never to trash other people's vehicles. It is my conviction that one can buy and/or build anything that they would like to. Naturally, like everybody else, I have my preferences.

I'm the original owner of a 1986 Jeep Cherokee with the 2.8L V-6. Jeep never made a 2.8, actually there are very few engines that have a pure Jeep heritage. It isn't like General Motors; for decades Jeeps were manufactured by independent and, often, marginal producers, who didn't have the wherewithall to develop and build engines. The engine in mine is a GM (actually a Cheverolet) 2.8L 60 degree V-6. In fact, AMC bought the carbureted 2.8L from Cheverolet from 1984-86. If you were to look at the 2.8 in my Cherokee; you would see that it is exactly like the one in my nephew's 1982 Camaro. Historically, GM engines have been bought by the several Jeep manufactures and installed in Jeep vehicles over the years. This is probably the reason why so many Jeepers use GM engines when they build one up.

I have never fully understood why it is so many trash the 2.8L, especially GM Guys. It was never intended to be a performer. To be sure, it has had some problems but that can be said of many engines. I can testify that the engine in my Jeep has served me faithfully for 15 years with no troubles.

In 1984, the Cherokee won the 4x4 of the year awards of the three major off road magazines (Petersen, Four Wheeler and Off Road). The only time in history this has happened. The engine in that 84 Cherokee was a Chevy built 2.8L with the Rochester 2SE carburteor. It has been said that the engine in a 4x4 isn't the most important ingredient in making a great truck. That may be so but the engine does count for something, doesn't it?? /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Best Regards,
Jim Young
xjy173/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

 

Jim,
I agree with your thoughts, thats why I did not mention things like this before... Jeep has used many different drivetrains throughout the years... If you research it you will find Ford, Chevy, and Dodge parts were used thoughout the years...
The reason most people with the S10s complain about the 2.8 in the S10-Blazer is simple... Take a 110 hp engine in a 3400-3800+ vehicle and you get an engine which is constantly strained to death in daily driving... This engine hasn't got enough power for the weight of a Blazer... With it being constantly strained gas milage goes out the door very quickly... The carbs weren't that bad from the factory but these days its hard to find one in good running condition... The worst part is most of the rebuilt ones are no better... Imagine the 2.8 installed in a large Impalla and you begin to understand why the S10 guys complain about the 2.8s power or lack of... Don't get me wrong, I personally had 188,000 on my 2.8 in my blazer when I finally did the V-8 swap...
As you have pointed out, no vehicle is perfect which was my exact point when this whole tread started... Why should he point a finger at any vehicle and call them names...

Bad-Bowtie,
M.Hall
S.A.W. @ S10-4x4.com

BTW, Remember guys, Its not what you buy but what you build that counts...

Bad-Bowtie,
M.Hall