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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just returned from the Smoky Mountain Venture in Tellico ORV. The jeeping was great but what I saw going on the trails makes me want to puke. My group had just completed Lower 2 or the Rock Garden on which I was the designated wench monkey and were watching the next group come up the trail. I noticed that the two lead jeeps each had a 8 ft. length of heavy chain attached to their wench cables. My fears were realized when I watched them run out to a tree and wrap the chain around the tree to pull them past the next tough part. No tree strap, just the chain....it was their "tree saver chain"! It was no wonder that all the trees along side the trail are dead or dieing. Each had a hugh scar around their base from the previous moron who did not bother to use a strap. Soon there will be no trees to attach to. These were not beginner jeepers either based upon the size of the rigs, modifications, monster tires and motors. I have ridden those trails dozens of times but I and my friends was truely shocked by the condition of the trails and the trees along them. It is no wonder we are losing our jeeping habitate when it is destroyed in this manner. My only regret is that I was not brave enough to walk down there an tell them to their faces because I don't think I would have changed their behavior. Sure that chain will out last any strap, sure it really makes your rig look tough hanging on the front and oh yeah it saves so much time not having to fool with a strap and clevis. But when the nearest tree is farther than your longest wench cable then what????
Shame on me for waiting until I got home to vent.

-Will
'85 CJ7 (original owner)

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Maybe there should be an education program for off-roader's? They have programs to keep kids from drinking, smoking, etc.. The off-road shops should probably have poster's giving these very important tips.

 

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I would say not just posters, but the operator/workers at the off road shops should find out what the people intend to do with the chains and stuff, and explain what is and isn't acceptable, when they need stuff like a tree saver and things of that nature... /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Stuff like that is so incredibly counter productive to our cause of trying to keep trails open that it makes me sick. I'm at the
point that I see absolutely no excuse at all for stupidity, and if people persist on acting that blatantly stupid they are only
asking for what the GAGs are after. Next time you see that happen, PLEASE give them a piece of your mind. I've done it before,
at the Rock Crawling Championships last fall in Farmington there was some kid in a pickup blasting all over spraying spectators with
sand, I went up to him and told him I was going to take away his keys if he didn't knock it off. You don't have to be quite so pushy,
but at least get the point across that stupidity will NOT be allowed.

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
http://www.off-road.com/land
 

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2 Points...

1. The use of a tree strap is a relatively new thing, as is "PC" (Politically Correct) 4 wheeling. Understand there are many out there who don't see using a chain as a problem - they have bene doing it their way for most of their life - changing their life habbits is not something that happens overnight... I am not defending what they do, but you have to understand the problem before you can hope to fix it.

2. You should be ashamed. It is useless to sit around here "preaching to the choir" - do something about it THEN & THERE...

<a href="http://www.tennessee4x4.com/toyota">
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: 2 Points...

As for the PC wheeling, I have only been in the game since '93 but when I started everyone in my club was using straps locally and we don't even have many trees here. Wheeling is at a high point right now but we all have to be extremely sensitive to our lively hood/hobby. I freely and willingly help in my club to instruct proper techniques to our members. But how many people would have gone down to the other group and informed them of something that has been common knowledge for several years now? No one from my group of 12 adults was motivated enough. Sure we groussed about it and could not believe they would be doing that, but no body wants to go up to a stranger and tell them they are doing something wrong to trees. The Greens sure would not have had trouble getting the word out! and we see them as offensive. I will make a point of addressing the issue next time. This just got me going....I love the Tellico region and I love wheeling but I don't like to make a public fuss. I guess I have.
-Will

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If you had been carring a GLOCK, like everybody wants you too, you could have just shot the non-compliant bastards..

( thats a JOKE)

I can imagine it would be pretty hard to walk up to a group of strangers and change what they are doing. The trick is to have a BIGGER group of good/educated wheelers to educate/realign the tree killing dip****z
or you could take pictures, send them to the sherioff, DMV, whoever handles hat sort of thing ( they would all deny handling it for sure) maybe send the photos to a green group and let the tree killing guys defend themselves agains them!


OzarkJeep
77 CJ5, in a bunch of sanded and primered pieces
 

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I certainly hope you were joking about handing pictures of uncaring or uneducated off roaders harming the trees, for example, to the green groups, because they (the greenies) won't just go after the people that were responsible for it, they'll use it to go after all off roaders, and close down our trails and shut down the sport.

If you were serious about giving pictures like that to a green group, that's the worst advice I've ever heard... /wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's
 

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so you are saying that your offroad forays come BEFORE the trees?

ahh, I see the mentality now!

You cant HIDE these things you goofball!
that looks even worse TO ECERYBODY!

you have to expose and eliminate that stupid [censored]!

OzarkJeep
77 CJ5, in a bunch of sanded and primered pieces
 

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Who is the goofball? Those that would broadcast whatever stupid stuff happens. We don't have to answer to the environmental groups. They shouldn't be just given photos of that type of damage. We should talk to those that we see that are causing the problem, and if that's not enough, let the police handle it. The environmentalists will not acknowledge that it was an isolated incident, they will make it out to look like all of us off roaders do stupid things like that.

I'm not for hiding it, I'm just not for giving that stuff to the environmentalists, at least make them work to get their own photographs (like in make them walk in, or find another way in). There is a difference between hiding something and not showing that something to some group. When you hide something you try to cover something up. The Government and the Environmentalist groups hide actual facts from the public. Yes, they cover it up. Blatantly lie about it. I'm not advocating we do that. I am advocating not showing them the photos, and if they want to find it, they can get their little butts out of their recliners and find the damage themselves.

And NO MY OFF ROADING DOES NOT COME BEFORE THE ENVIRONMENT OR THE TREES I like the trees, I hate to see people harm the trees, the reason I off road (one of the reasons) is to go out and enjoy seeing the trees, the rocks, the undergrowth, the senic beauty of the area. I do not approve of advising someone to give (or giving) anything that will give our sworn enemy (those that have vowed that they will not stop until our sport is eliminated) more ammo to use against us...

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's
 

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then maybe you should enlighten me on how you would have handled this situation?

I stand by my theoretical response.

oh I re read it, you wan tto let the POLICE handle it..

you must offroad in some REALLY ROUGH areas if the police patrol them..

cmon man..you can do better



OzarkJeep
77 CJ5, in a bunch of sanded and primered pieces
 

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Incidentally, around here the DNR, for example has some pretty badass trucks, that I've seen in a variety of off road situations, so it's not really an issue. They can get back in there if they want, and/or I would consider offering them a ride to the area in my truck if they couldn't make it in there with their vehicles.

I might have taken pictures, and probably talked to the people (if I see someone doing something I do not like (or I feel is bad for themselves (unsafe) or bad for the environment or trail), I will not hesitate to make it known that what they are doing is harming our image, our sport and our legal ability to access trails, and things like that.). If they ignore or threaten me for trying to straighten them out and trying to get them to do things the acceptable (environmentally friendly (for lack of a better term) and safe, etc...) way (tree savers, etc...), then I will report it to the proper authorities, which contrary to popular belief, DOES NOT INCLUDE ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS!!!

I must stand by my theoretical response because we do not need to help the environmentalists shut us down. We don't have to report to them, and we don't have to answer to them (even though the Government is mainly ran by environmental groups anyway). We don't need to help them shut us down. Anything you say to the environmental groups can and will be used against all OHV operators, not just those that are causing the problem, you can rest assured of that. They have taken a vow to shut us down, so what makes you think that they won't use that to help make all off roading illegal like they want to do in the first place? /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's
 

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if you will reread my first post on this that you blasted, Youll see that I took the SAME course of action you did ( let a sheriff handle it), only as an alternative did I say "maybe" show them to an envro group.

as far as im concerned, and keep in mind i actually value the trees more than my ability to drive over stuff (Im not saying that just to keep folks off of my back like you are), Its FINE with me if they want to shut down the trails because of people doing stupid [censored] like that ..

BECAUSE, YOU guys who want to keep the trails open wont stop them !
because you wont tell anyone, you are enableing them to continue tearing [censored] up

do something about, quit whining about hte enviro groups, about hte governemtn, about your ass, and go and DO SOMETHING about the dumbasses who are causing trail closures..

its that simple

OzarkJeep
77 CJ5, in a bunch of sanded and primered pieces
 

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Hmmm... I didn't intend for it to sound like I was blasting your entire post, just the part about giving the photos to the environmental groups. No need for farther argument. I just think it would be in the worst interest of this sport, and all of us law abiding (and respectful) off roaders to hand over a bad example of an off roader to the environmental groups...

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's
 

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I can see your point, what I dont think you realize is that assimilating those guys into your ranks and NOT handing them over is WORSE longterm ( for YOUR agenda)..

I didnt mean for this to be a personal battle betwixt you and I either..

You guys know where i stand ( I walk a razorblade somewhere near the middle, and I dont own any shoes!)

if you see somebody doing something assnine in the outback, make them stop, just dont let it turn into a gun fight.

OzarkJeep
77 CJ5, in a bunch of sanded and primered pieces
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I notice that clubs that have trail rides have a posted rules and posted
tools you must have onboard. Like tow hooks,first aid kits,seat belts,tow,hooks.
You get the picture. Maybe if you have a winch should have a tree strap???
That would clear the air and everyone would know where they stand.
This would help bring people up to date on PC trail work.

 

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In our club you use a treestrap or you don't hook to the tree, plain and simple. As far as the Glock goes, I carry a Smith, but it will have the same effect if things get out of hand. I have no problem talking to people like that, they're usually very understanding once you put them on your side. If you confront someone, there are immediately two sides, theirs and yours. If you throw the enviros into the equation ("Hey guys, they'll shut us down if they see that"), you're both on the same side and no more tension. I've even loaned tree straps to people on the trail without one, I just get it back at the end of the day. Any wheeler worth anything will hunt you down to return it, along with a beer, and thank you. Any wheeler who doesn't gets tracked down by me wearing the 9mm.

Under no circumstances should the enviros get into it. I've seen what happens when you try to be nice and work with these guys, they stab you in the back. I've also heard of enviros causing damage, just to blame it on others, and when they were caught, it was dismissed and swept under the rug. Don't give them an inch 'cause they'll take 500 square miles.

JEEPN
'81 CJ-8 Scrambled!
GM151/SM465/NP205 twinstick/7"Lift/33"TSL's/IHC D44's 4.10's Lock'd
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Couldn't resist posting...

Wilbur - I feel your pain. I was jest in Tellico in March and if you go back through the board, you'll see that I posted on the EXACT same topic. The state of the tress near the trails is inexcusable. If you think 2 was bad - what did you think of SlickRock-9 that place is basically a dirt field. How about the litter?

Honestly people - I went to Tellico for a few reasons. One of them is that I honestly believe that places like this are not going to last much longer. Tellico was an envirnmental DISASTER. The tree killing, soil erosion, and litter was unreal. I'm pretty sure that the only reason they keep it open is because they don't want the entire Nantahala Forest looking like that.

And hey - I'm cool with that. Let's face it - none of us are out there to hurt the environment - we all like to be out there. But we all know that on a 45 degree angle with a V-8, mud terrains and lockers, there's not a whole lot of tread lightly going on. That's to be expected and I'm pretty sure that's why theu've designated Tellico. Moab is rock - pretty hard to screw that up, but on the East Coast, you'll get soil erosion. Some parts of School Bus-10 at Tellico are 10 FEET underground from the soil erosion.

So what do we do about it? I don't know. It's pretty tough to combat that soil erosion - maybe everyone who goes in there should take half a dozen saplings and plant them... I know that it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to use a tree saver, and you're a complete waste of flesh if you litter out there - there's just no excuse for that, and Guardrail was a dump...

Wilbur - you opened yourself up to the comments on not saying something to those guys. However, I can't say I really blame you for not. We've all met some pretty weird characters out there. I don't 4-wheel with a gun (and please let's not start a discussion on that - if you want to - start a new post) but I do carry a big knife. I avoid others at all costs out there - I don't need that. I'm sure your suggestion would not have met with much enthusiasm - maybe later in the day in a parking lot, but once the winch cable comes out, the driver is already pissed, so I don't think that's the best time to critique his method...

So in conclusion, we all just need to use our heads and do what WE can. Use a tree saver. Don't litter. Be cognizant of the damage that's being done, and try to make others aware of this without offending them. Hopefully, we'll spread the word and things will change. Who knows, maybe the chain guys are reading this saying, "you know, it is pretty stupid..." - Chuck

Chuck Hadley
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
We're at the point now where everyone should know not to hand the "Green
Weenies" any ammo. Just because someone has been doing something a certain
way their whole life is no excuse anymore - you have to change with the times or
get left behind. If you see some uneducated types out on the trail doing something moronic..LET 'EM KNOW ABOUT IT!
I happen to enjoy extended backpacking trips as well as off-roading. Call
me what you will - but it's up to us moderates who happen to enjoy everything
outdoors to work together and educate. The way things are going now...there
isn't going to be anything left in a few years and we all can sit around with
our thumbs up our asses and remember how it used to be..
enough of this long winded sH*% ...I'm going OUTSIDE



 

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Chuck, how about you tell me what is the harm in erosion of a trail? (We are not talking about tree damage here, or the litter, just the erosion).

So the dirt does from here to there. So there is a washout. What is the big freakin deal? Is it actually DAMAGED, or do you just not want to see it?

This is a point of contention I have with the arguements greenies (a.k.a. anti-access groups) present.

Erosion happens every day. Dirt is moved around from place to place. I have yet to have someone show me how this is actually DAMAGE...

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