[CJDave]

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif We are primarily SNO drivers up here and don't really do much rock running at all, but it occurred to my engineering mind; after reading so many posts on the need for good articulation; that it may be desireable to use a rear axle setup very similar to the early Ford cars with the enclosed driveline and a wishbone to hold the rear axle. You could use coil-over hydraulic suspension which would transfer oil to the side of the Jeep which had to go deep and relieve the side that had to crawl over. Coils would just add some bias to the process for stabliity, and for hiway work you could use a cut-off valve in the oil lines to cancel out the transfer of oil. The enclosed driveline IS the torque tube and takes all of that strain off the axle tubes entirely, and the springs only have to hold the up and down motion, no torque, since the torque is strictly between the piggy and the wheels themselves. The idea here is twofold: (1) to provide for more tire contact and articulation; and (2) to keep from having to wrack the frame and leaf springs to get articulation. This setup would especially adapt itself to the TJs since they have coils already. The enclosed driveline would not actually be totally enclosed, but rather "encaged", where the cage is the torque-resisting member and a skid at the same time. Sometimes you gotta let your brain float a little and try not to think of what IS being done, but what CAN be done/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifYou could also take a page out of the (UGH!)"Low Rider" book and use four hydraulic cylinders as your coil-over hydraulic suspension and control all four corners independently from the driver's seat. All you would have to do is steal a bunch of tractor batteries; steal the hydraulic power packs from several trucks with lift gates; steal the switches and the solenoids and you'd be set./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.

 

[027]

Dave,,,, Your brain is working overtime here,,,,/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif,,,, The early Ramblers used this minus the hydraulics. They used leaves instead, but if I remember a few models came out with coils. Wonder why they never made it over to the Jeep dept.?/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif Have you ever worked on one of those wishbone system? It's not pretty,,, let me tell you/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif. It would take your best crew of moonguys and then some. But when it worked it was great. This leads me to wonder also,,,mmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........!!!!!!
GP'n

 

[CJDave]

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif I've built several race cars with the wishbone, or modified wishbone with transverse springs. I never saw a rambler setup. We also made some agricultural machinery that used that setup for extreme articulation for crossing levees but keeping the frame reasonably level. I've thought a lot about the Hummer system of independent suspension, but it really isn't that necessary if you can allow the solid axles to tilt a little more. A lot in the rear, less in front because of the limitations of the front drive. In the rear the drive can be centered in the vee of the wishbone, in front it cannot./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.

 

[Guest]

Dave,

Woodn't it be easier to mount a jeep body onto the frame of one of those"Wheel Hoppin Wonder Cars" /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif the boys out there in cali have?

Bird /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

 

[338]

Dave,
Definitely a thought provoking design.
The idea of leveling hydraulics, I have seen. On a run up to "Big Shuteye Lookput" above Bass Lake Ca. , Jeepchick and I spent a whole day wrenching and cleaning up hydraulic fluid when we crossed paths with a man and his son with a Tube Frame CJ with 4 link coil suspension in the front, and 3 link in the rear. All 4 corners were spring over suspension, with a Hydraulic ram located adjacent to each coil, using a biased controled, self adjusting system, there was an individualy controlled override for each ram at a center console. It was great looking piece of engineering, but he his son were really struggeling to get the hydraulics to work right. The suspension worked very well though when left on its own. I ended up using our vinyl tent ground cloth and a canvas tarp to rig up a diaper for that leaky beast. He was an excavating contractor from the Fresno area.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
If at first you dont succeed, your replacement will try and try again.

 

[Guest]

My dad has a '66 Rambler which has that torque tube setup and coil springs on a model 20 rearend. I can't recall though how the torque tube attaches to the tranny output and the input to the rear diff. Wouldn't you need some sort of extremely flexible connection to allow for changing driveshaft angles as the rear articulates. I wish I could look at that Rambler, but it's in a barn (where it's been for 15 years) about 200 miles away.

 

[027]

The Ramblers of the 60's had the old enclosed drive line set up with the wishbone. They were a bi&^ch to get to the shaft to make repairs, or even on the u-joint,,ball-joint thingy they used. oil would get every where.
GP'n

 

[CJDave]

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif Historically, the enclosed ball was used with one semi-constant velocity u-joint. If I did it I would use open-trunion, about like a front axle is right now. You need flexure in up and down, and rotary as well, just enough side to side to keep from breaking something, and the driveline should have one CV joint at the t-case, and a slip yolk in the rear for good measure. The BIG problem with so darn many hydraulic systems is that people cannot seem to resist adding every device that there is in the catalog, and when they do it is too complicated to work. I have to give the low rider boys credit for keeping it simple. They only steal enough stuff to do the job./wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.

 

[Dana]

Early Fiat 124 Spiders also had the torque tube/enclosed driveline setup-- the pinion shaft ran to just behind the tranny, supported by a bearing there, with a rubber donut alignment coupling. They soon switched to a more conventional double cardan joint arrangement and added another pair of trailing links, but kept the rubber donut forward of the front u-joint, dunno why.

Interestingly (and totally irrelevant), instead of the conventional brake proportioning valve like we have on the Jeeps, they had a lever-operated valve on the rear axle, which closed off the rear brake line after the rear suspension extended to a certain point. Strange, but effective.

-Dana

Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch.

 

[Guest]

Why make it so complex? In my lifetime of experiences (not that long, 22yrs) I have fugured out that the more complex something is, thr more you get to know our good friend Murphy, teacher of invaluable lessons of simplicity. My grandfather always told me to KISS a project. A good acronym for any situation.

I don't have a lot of engineering experience, I went through my first year of college at an engineering school. But I did take calculus based particle movement. I purpose to keep it simple. In the rear go with a three link, with a swivle joint at the axle end of each control arm. Use quarter-elliptical springs for the rear springs. Use a custom coil suspension in the front or soa with folding shackles. When I can save enough for it, I might just go this way with my suspension, if everything works out like I've planned. So far it isn't. No really high paying job offers or good get rich shcemes have crossed my way yet. If they did I could do everything I ever dreamed of. Sounds good right now/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

Robert87yj/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif
engine rebuild w/4.0 head done, now for the MPI

 

[CJDave]

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif The WWII GI 6X6 trucks used that system with the two axles sharing one inverted leaf spring. Side play was controlled by the sectional strength of the spring, but there were no actual spring shackles....the spring just sat in a trench with high sides so it could twist freely. I was always amazed at how much those axles could tilt. All three links had ball joints both ends./wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.

 

[Guest]

I have been dreaming up a suspension for my old CJ using transverse springs, like my T. A T rear axle is incredibly lightweight, the tubes would not support hardly any weight- the rear spring hangers are located directly above the outer axle bearings- the radius arms are simple stamped steel tubes to locate the outer ends of the axle. By using Ford-like crossmembers front and rear, you could adjust the amount of articulation by adding or removing u-bolts that follow the crossmember. I will see if I can dig up some pictures to show you what the heck I'm trying to explain here!

Grant

Grant
60 CJ5
80 CJ5

 

[CJDave]

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif Believe me when I tell you, Grant, that I know every bolt in a "T". I helped restore a 1915 Touring, and a 1921 Pickup. My neighbor has a '25 Truck with an aftermarket, dealer-installed frame extension, and a Ruxall auxillary transmission. We did every kind of trick that you could possibly do to make the pre-48 Fords go. I had a '35 pickup and my buddy had a '36 Coupe. You could do everything except make one stop. The brakes were crap. We ran a few '40 Fords as race cars, but quit using Fords because when you built the engine, all your work was in the block, and when it coughed up it's guts you lost everything. Overhead valves at least enabled you to salvage the head(s). Those "T" suspensions were great for cross-country work. It was amazing where those little narrow tires would actually go......until the front wishbone broke that is....../wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif....I'm gonna be in CT in a month.....my first visit to the East Coast.....YALE graduation....my oldest will be outa college....at last....BS(Stanford)MS(Oxford)PhD(UNC Chapel Hill)Law Skool(Yale)....will be teaching at Harvard this Fall in the School of Public Health. This is SOME kid, I tell ya. And best of all, she treats people very well....always has./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.

 

[Guest]

Geez Dave, did you ever see someone try to stop a 38 Ford with cable brakes? My T still travels the same roads around here as it did when new, never dreamed I would have so much fun with 20 h.p. I love the utility concept of ole T's, CJ's and such. My 60 CJ has been sleeping out back of the barn for a few years now, its dyin to back to pushing snow in the winter and pullin hay wagons in the summer! Give me a holler when your in CT, I'm 20 minutes east of Hartford. Then we can really swap yarns coast-to-coast!
Congratulations to you and your little girl-PROUD PAPA!

Grant
60 CJ5
80 CJ5