Off Roading Forums banner

In response to Glenn Wakefield's comment...

3.1K views 63 replies 14 participants last post by  CrowHorse  
G
#1 ·
In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Glenn,

What give you the right to state this:

"Do you want safety? Or convenience? Have someone fab you a cage without zig-zags all over it."

Many people have bought the "zig-zag" cage and been VERY happy and safe with it. I have personally watched a Samurai roll at the melt onto this cage and was suprised with how well it held up. So impressed -in fact- that I plan on purchasing one of these cages later on this year.

I personally do not believe that you, as a vendor, have the right to make such a biased comment as this. Do you have proof that this "zig-zag" rollcage is any less safe than ones manufactured elsewhere? Do you have numbers, accident reports, pictures, anything that can validate this statement? No, you don't and it's another case of "Glenn's verbal diarhea" time. Don't you realize that it's this type of behavior that makes people not like your business or you personally?

Yes, I've purchased items from you in the past. And, I've thought long and hard before I made that purchase for many reasons and your ignorant comments is one of those reasons. I've also been happy with your items and I have told people this. I have also told them that I have a hard time purchasing from you because you run your mouth too much and in situations where it's not warranted. One would have thought that you've learned to keep your mouth shut when it comes to competitors products.

If you can show us proof that THIS "Zig-zag" cage is unsafe then I'll give you a public appology here. If you can't then you owe the manufacturers of this cage as well as all the owners of this cage an appology right here.

Bottom line: Put up or shut up!

I watch; I take in and I tell it like I see it. If you have a problem with this then don't read my posts!
 
G
#27 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

I don't see why everybody is getting so bent (sorry for the pun) over this from a post by somebody who obviously created an account to stir up trouble.

Profile for TruthHurts

Email SuzukiSmr@AOL.comĂŠ
Name Zippy the PinheadĂŠ
Title stranger ĂŠ
Total Posts 1ĂŠ
Homepage ĂŠ
Occupation Gang GreenĂŠ
Hobbies Tellin' it like it isĂŠ
Location USAĂŠ
Bio If you don't like what you read, stop reading. If you don't like what you see, stop looking. If you odn't like what you hear, stop listening. If you don't like what I say, tough $hit.ĂŠ
ICQ Number ĂŠ
Off-Road Vehicle 1 ĂŠ
Off-Road Vehicle 2 ĂŠ
Off-Road Club or Organization ĂŠ
Years Off-Roading ĂŠ
Registered on 2/18/02 07:46 PM

As for Glenn's comment, it looks to me like he didn't mention any specific vendor. Are we going to reduce ourselves to a level now where we mindlessly attack one another based on what we "think" someone meant in a post and instigated by an some anonymous jerk? This is nonsense, and I think a bit over the edge. It sounds like Glenn was giving some good advice about not having spaghetti for a roll cage. But if you want to associate his comment to a specific vendor, then that is your own doing, not his. And finally, if this "TruthHurts" person has so much a problem with what somebody says, why doesn't he get a backbone and real identity and bring it before the group in a more mature way? This bogus account of his is crap, he is the one we should be attacking for trying to start nonsense like this.
 
#28 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

I imagine Glenn has read this thread, and I hope he's laughing at it. I agree with him, but only because I have yet to see a proper cage made for a Samurai. I do not agree with bashing other vendors, and since his cage is no better, he has no right to do so. And for TruthHurts, who are you to attack a vendor that way? I've talked to every one of the Suzuki vendors out there, either on the phone or in person. Every single one has had something bad to say about another's products or services. It's not right or wrong, it's called competition, so get over it. Petro is only trying to design a cage that is functional and least intrusive to space as possible, plain and simple. It's clearly not designed to be dropped off the Grand Canyon, none of them are. If you folks ever take time to read the discaimer from any of these vendors, their products are designed for low-speed off-road use, that's all. I would'nt trust any of these cages due to their being bolted or welded to the body tubs, and I don't like the feeling of security that people get with them. If you want something that looks nice, fine, use one. If you are truly worried about safety, go to a race shop and spend several thousand dollars to have a properly designed cage built, with reinforced frame mountings. Put up or shut up? How about this: put your money were your mouth is, buy one cage from each vendor, and pay a testing facility to test them. You will get the same result from all of them since they are not designed for a full-blown crash. They are designed for looks, and do offer some protection to boot. If you think Glenn is biased, go talk to any of the Jeep vendors, they're ten times worse. Oh, and just so anyone doesn't get confused and runs their mouth off, I have built cages for a living, using proven designs and methods of attaching it to the vehicle. Why do you think stock car drivers have to climb through the window?
Sarge

If it aint broke , I can still fix it...
 
#29 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Hold on to your hats, folks.

I CONCUR WITH GLENN ON THIS!

A bend is a bend, and by nature, is weaker than a strait tube.

But let me do say this. If your wheeling style is mild, and you mostly just trail ride, and that all you want is some added protection in the unlikely event that you flop on your side, then the PW cage is fine IMHO.

If you are a hard-core bad ass who wheels like you have a death wish, then you need a cage that connects to the frame in at least 6 points! Period.

Any cage that is built and connected to the body is a "sport cage" and should not be relied on for protection in extreme situations. Especially if you have a rusted body.

In reality, the PW cage will offer added protection in the event of a roll compared to nothing at all. Who knows? It could even withstand being dropped on it's top, but in absence of testing data, it's pure conjecture.

And for the average guy with no welder, the PW cage is a very VIABLE option.

Yankee Tim/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
G
#30 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

OK Tim, I've marked this one on my calendar.

I just hope I don't need a roll cage before I get the time and money for one! I'll probably be almost bone-stock at Zukfari. Just too many conflicts in my schedule...

Bob

95 'Kick 2 Door Soft top /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
95 'Kick 4 Door - header /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
#31 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Bob,

I'm leading a Zukfari run out to Chicken Corners on the Tuesday of Safari week. It's a fairly easy trail, with no real worry of rolling over. The trail does get close to some high cliffs, but if you fall off one of those, you'd need a parachute rather than a roll cage./wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif I scaring you, the trail ride is an easy one for the stock, mild modified and plain scared. It's also a really beautiful ride.

I'm also leading a trail ride on Monday for the Zukiworld Fun Run. It will be an easy trail again, but insure of where exactly. Maybe Hell's Revenge?

In any case, you're more than welcome to join either or both of the runs if you want to.

Yankee Tim/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
#32 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

well said Sarge! I especially like the bit about stock car frames 8^D

I do have one solid question though, for you, Glen, and anyone else whos built professional caliber cages - have you ever designed a cage based on the monocoque principle used in aircraft skins? Yah, I know, the design/fab process takes about 10 times the time, and 100 times the cost of a traditional bar cage, I'm just curious as to everyones aversion to the bent bars - aircraft frames are ALL bent bars, and while they do have a built in design tolerance, its usually pretty high. The objective of the aircraft design is, of course, light weight, which could be equally applied to componenets for the small engined Samurai.

I have a vested interest in working with these structures, as the entire Niva body shell is a loose-tolerance monocoque design.( to clarify, no its NOT unibody - it has 4 full length stringers , but they're very light duty compared to a seperate chassis.) Despite having seen Nivas rolled at highway speed with little/no damage, I'd like to add some rock & tree protection to mine, but dont want to compromise the existing structure in the process.

Vendors/cage builders - comments, and suggestions on altering the monocoque structure?

Chris

Image
91 Niva 'Cossack', MB 240D, 4 speed auto, ~88:1 low, 30x9's, coil sprung, 830 RTI.
 
#33 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

As far as the originator of this thread goes, to me he sounds like someone who frequents this board and for one reason or another is jealous of Glenn and his Suzuki knowledge. Just trying to pick a fight where no fight exists

I don't know about the aircraft design thing, but it seems to me aircraft are not designed to roll over, not on the ground anyway. If one did, I don't think the results would be very pretty. Yes the design is rigid, but the application of strength is completely different to that of a wheeled vehicle.

Mort-Man
1985 SuKuZi SJ410
1990 FORD F-150
 
#34 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

err, thats just it mort-man: the Niva IS a monocoque from the factory!! Not so incidentally, a lot of fibreglass boats, and concept cars use the same technique, specifically because of its inherent strength, and light weight. Even 'ultracars' like the Maclaren F1, IMSA jaguar, and Mercedes M1 use monocoque construction in at least parts of their chassis. stiffness, AND protection, with a minimum weight penalty - the downside is $$$. comuter time, VERY tight fabrication tolerances, and precision fitting. I will note, that, as applied to cars, there's a very fine line between moocoque, with its stressed skin, and 'space frame', with seperate skin, and cage - the ulra cars use a mish-mash of both types. Boat hulls, with stringer and spar frames bedded into the fibreglass hulls are 100% monocoque.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to put down the traditional cage - its WAY cheaper , easier to build, and the average owner can install/remove them without too much trouble...just pointing out that there are other options, and that properly done, those 'bends' can be designed to add strength, rather than decrease it.

chris

Image
91 Niva 'Cossack', MB 240D, 4 speed auto, ~88:1 low, 30x9's, coil sprung, 830 RTI.
 
G
#36 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Everyone's needs and opinions are not the same this is ez to see from this tread, but as for toughness of different cages will read petroworks disclainor on their cage..not saying anything bad about it at all for the way i wheel i have concered buying it myself. But if i wheeled with Cris I'd want one made out of 4 inche pipe,,haha

IF you can read this my spelling must be getting better DRU
 
#37 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Ok, let me approach this a bit differently......

It might appear at face value that some are overly sensitive regarding this issue. Quite to the contrary....

I don't think I'm too far off base by saying historicaly, Glenn has made some cutting/inflamatory remarks pertaining to some other vendors products. This my friends, is fact.
With that in mind, Glenn's replies now come under closer scrutiny. Call it conditioned behavior or whatever you wish. Some folks are just tired of the insinuations or suttle digs about other's products.
More fact..... Glenn is a valued resource to the Zook community. His experience/knowledge has helped many and I'm sure he will continue to do so. This is one of many reasons we all come back here.....

OK, here it comes.....

However....There are ways to present differing opinions and ways not to. No more explanation needed as Zukikid said it perfectly.....

So, are some being overly sensitive or worse, just being cry babies? I think not. We all have our opinions and personal needs and not one product is perfect for everyone. Diversity is one of many reasons why this is such a great group of folks....

So......play nice and we'll all be able to have our milk and cookies......

All Good Medicine,
Crow

Creator, everything we do leaves a track. May our tracks be ones we would want you to see and others to follow......
 
#38 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Your wisdom is so applicable to this BBS. Glad you are hear.

Because of all this bantering and you trying to help keep the peace, your post total just made you a VETERAN. I thought the new title was quite appropriate.

Wanna go to Paragon on the 3rd?

Yankee Tim/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
#39 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Thank you for your kind words Tim!

Maybe the title is even more appropriate than you know. I'll explain in a PM......

I'll have to check my calendar.... I'll let you know....

All Good Medicine,
Crow

Creator, everything we do leaves a track. May our tracks be ones we would want you to see and others to follow......
 
G
#40 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

OK folks, I was standing right there when the kid flipped at the MELT. Petroworks cage held up admirably recieving a small ding on the side and a scratch on the top. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one ! Do you actually think that Gary would sell a potentially dangerous product ??? I DON'T THINK SO !!
ROB

The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
 
G
#41 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

well i am not a every day poster but... i do look all most every day. I have noticed Company owners saying that competitors merchandise was unsafe, or "this is what we sell" attitude. Notice i did not say Glen... or any names for that matter... I have wanted to say something in the past but since i am not on a first name basis with you guys decided not to.

This may be a problem but is there anything we can do but ask the company owners/employies do but respect others as they would want anyone talk about there products.

just my 2 pennies.

Levi Lanning
94 sidekick in ohio with me
1.6 16v 4 door
86 Sammi tin top at home in alaska
 
#42 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Monocoque? With the costs, the Suzuki market would never even touch them. I could build cages that would be more than safe for any rig, but it would add about 250lbs at minimum, and cost somewhere around $3,000. There would be no doors to open, and you better be pretty skinny to get into it. That's what it takes to cover the liability of idiots. Anything can be built to be indestructable, but there will always be some idiot that can destroy it. If you want a cage inside the truck, it had better be strong enough not to bend into the seat areas, or your head, for that matter. A decent cage in my mind is outside of the body, to help add to the integrity of the cab, and the protection it offers. Maybe they should come with a safety factor rating: #1 Idiot, #2 Idiot, ect....
Sarge

If it aint broke , I can still fix it...
 
G
#43 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Personally, I like Glenn's approach. And even if he does 'dig' at other's products, I think its always for a good reason. If there is one area where Glenn feels passionate in supporting, its in safety. If anyone wants to read into his comments, like someone has already said, thats your OWN doing. I think the main reason people dont like vendors to bash other vendors is because they expect them to do it to get sales. People view this as dirty, or greedy. Someone mentioned its competition, deal with it, its a part of a free, democratic, and open-economy society...we call it America. In this specific instance, and in many others I am sure, Glenn was not being what many of you bain. A so-called greedy and insensitive vendor. In fact, he didnt even bother mentioning that he sells cages.

<<Do you want safety? Or convenience?

Have someone fab you a cage without zig-zags all over it.

http:// www.rocky-road.com>>

Seemed to me like was recommending to this person to have his cage made. We all agree that bends are weaker. Isnt Glenn just being logical? Convenience or safety? Bends or straight?

Ask not our vendors to not bash, but ask ourselves to not bash vendors that give good advice!

Signed,
John F. Kennedy

or just Micah Wills :)

ICQ# = 3859170
Complete front axle for sale, with Breeze cross over
http://www.lilzeus.net/axle4sale.htm
http://www.lilzeus.net
 
G
#44 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

Don't just regular people say bad things about other products. Like, I could say that the ARB Locker is better than the Detroit Locker. It means I am saying somthing bad about Detroit Lockers. That is not bashing. It is just a personal view.
 
#47 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

And they float.....like ducks.

All Good Medicine,
Crow

Creator, everything we do leaves a track. May our tracks be ones we would want you to see and others to follow......
 
#48 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

"Someone mentioned its competition, deal with it, its a part of a free, democratic, and open-economy society...we call it America."

Yes, it is America. And we enjoy many freedoms, freedoms that many can not enjoy.

It's much like farting in a crowded bus. I have every right to do so (free speech), but it's certainly in very bad taste.

Another issue is -Are we being too sensitive/picky regarding Glenn's comments? One could argue that dissecting his comments is unnecessary and unwarranted. Normally, maybe so, however, one must consider how we have been conditioned to do so and why.

A wiser man than I once told me, "Speak softly and sweetly. You never know when you'll have to eat your words."

Personally, I try to live by this. I don't want to eat Crow.....

All Good Medicine,
Crow

Creator, everything we do leaves a track. May our tracks be ones we would want you to see and others to follow......
 
#50 ·
Re: In response to Glenn Wakefield\'s comment...

"Is someone's life worth more than a few hurt feelings? I believe so."

Glenn, allow me to address you directly on this.....

Safety or not, it's not necessary to "hurt" feelings in order to express an opinion. And it's not actually a case of hurt feelings, but rather a form of alienation/polarization. I believe most are thick skinned enough to accept differing opinions. It's when posts have implied negatives and sometimes more obvious negative connotations, that peoples knickers get in a twist....
I fully understand the limitations of the written word here. They lack intonation, yet they do contain an energy, that can often be misinturpreted if the words are not chosen carefully. It's very much like speaking before you think, not fully realizing the ramifications and impact of those spoken words.....

In conclusion....I believe I've sucessfuly beaten a dead horse into the ground...... My apologies for continuing it, but I suspect the air is not clear yet......

All Good Medicine,
Crow

Creator, everything we do leaves a track. May our tracks be ones we would want you to see and others to follow......