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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry to all for sparking up a new argument and I don't feel it's necssary to beat a dead horse.

Good luck to all and Happy Jeepin'!
Best regards,
-gw
 

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836 Posts
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

" Let ME tell you how many Duraspark ignition modules we sell! It would knock you off your seat! "
Lets have some numbers. I'm sitting down. I've driven fords for 30yrs and have only replaced 1 unit. I worked for a dealer in the 70's
and we didn't replace very many. By the way, you probably sell alot of those magnets to increase fuel milage to. TeamRush
doesn't sell a thing so where is his motive. We see where yours is.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

If he sounds like a salesman, looks like a salesman, and most importantly SMELLS like a salesman... well, you know the rest.

It seems like you're trying harder to pick a fight than to defend the advantages of the HEI -- which you are obviously trying very hard to sell. I have a 258 in my 84 CJ7, and as of yet have not done either the HEI or TFI upgrade. I'm still gathering information -- attempting to separate the facts from the opinions (and exaggerations) -- before I make my decision. So, I don't think I'm biased towards either upgrade.

To be honest, at times I've been frustrated by TeamRush's hot temper. BUT... through it all, he has been honest and stuck to the facts... avoided speculation, exaggeration, and hyperbole... and done it all with absolutely nothing to gain -- other than the rage of devoted HEI fans (there were many a couple of months ago, seem to be far fewer now). What's more, in response to your obvious taunting, he was civil... even GRACIOUS (Way to go TR!!!). DRIVEAJEEP, why did you feel the need to start another thread on the same subject? Are you that desperate for business?

Frankly, I don't trust you. "If I believed that the TFI setup was better, I would be selling those instead." WOW, how benevolent of you! They must be makin' popsicles in purgatory, cuz' I just met me a salesman who is lookin' out fer the little guy. Perhaps... just perhaps... you're selling the HEI because you can make money on it. If you thought you could make a profit on the TFI upgrade, I'd bet you would sell it as well. Unfortunately, the TFI just doesn't have the profit margin that the HEI does.

You could well be right. I'm no expert... never claimed to be. HEI could blast the TFI out of the water. But you won't be the one to convince me. I WILL listen to guys like DDawg16 (and other HEI supporters like him), an honest person whose opinion I trust and value.

Go back to your Used-Car lot, DRIVEAJEEP. I'm sure there are more than a few yokels there, just begging to be conned.

Go easy! You're talkin' to a greenhorn.
 

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Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

GO EASY THERE!
Everybody has to make a living, and you never know, maybe he actually believes in the GM style HEI...

I like Motorcraft's style HEI better. He's allowed to have his opinion, Right, Wrong, or Indifferent.
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WHAT I'M TICKLED ABOUT IS HOW MANY SAW THROUGH IT RIGHT AWAY !!!

There are a bunch of talented guys here that have not had an basic education in some of these subjects, and ignitions and Holley carbs are two of them I see the most...

Educate you guys, and you catch on right away!
And you are all willing to be helpful passing on the info to others.

(There will always be nose miners that don't get it, no matter what you do... That's what I'm used to around here in corn field country.
I get pretty tired of trying to teach pigs to sing...)

My time wasn't wasted here!

Thanks dudes, you just made my day!
Aaron.

If Chris Columbus "Discovered" America (with 25 million already here), Can I Go "Discover" Florida?
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

Here's another one for you. I just saw a post on Parts Mike's board where he is giving out parts numbers for someone to upgrade their Duraspark system to the Ford big cap. He does say that he still prefers HEI, but admits that it won't pass California emissions and that the Duraspark can be simply upgraded to be a much better performing ignition system over the factory configuration. I wonder how long before we see somebody selling Duraspark upgrade "kits". The thread originates with someone wanting to eliminate their computer for those who are interested.
 

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Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

I can't post over there. Get an error message every time I try....
Worked fine a while back... (until I disagreed and gave a url outside of his sponsors...)
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There already is a kit out...
Someone sent me the advertisement url, but I lost it cleaning out emails a couple of days ago.
It's no secret, and I'm glad I could bring it here for you Jeep guys that can REALLY use it...
This isn't a mustang ignition that just has one or two things wrong with it, every thing from the distributor housing up is wrong... and on some models, even the distributor housing is wrong!

This upgrade just puts you Motorcraft guys a little ahead of the GM HEI, and does it for a lot less money. (More money for BEER & AMMO!!)

It also allows you to jump straight to the MSD version of CDI module, the largest single upgrade you can make! MSD isn't just the ticket, it's the whole damned show when it comes to ignition energy!

Glad you guys are here when I'm not, and I'm glad I could help!
Thanks again, Aaron.

If Chris Columbus "Discovered" America (with 25 million already here), Can I Go "Discover" Florida?
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

Well, since I keep getting conflicting information about Ford vs. Chevy ignition, I've made a decision. SInce I'm not technically inclined enough to perform my own tests and find out for sure which is better, I've decided to throw in the towel. THat's right, you heard it here folks, I'm upgrading to a Ferrari ignition system so that I'll have the ultimate in performance. I know what you are thinking, "How?". It's really simple. I've enlarged the engine area to accomodate a phat Ferrari motor and I'm just going to make it happen... Whatever it takes. That way I won't have to worry about the Ford vs. Chevy ordeal.

Seriously though, I'm not sure what to do here. I've been following the discussion and taking notes and I decided to go with Aaron's ford upgrade. Then I called a buddy to ask him if he wanted to go "slummin" in the junk yard and I told him what I was up to. His FIRST question was, "Why Ford? Make a Chevy ignition work." DAMN! Now what? He laughed at the Ford idea and said chevy was lighyears ahead.

Now, for someone with little to no mechanical background, I'm quite confused, torn and quite honestly thinking I'll just leave the Jeep the way it is. Is there really that significant of a difference. It seems like I've seen alot of figures and facts and stuff, but ultimately, is there a REAL difference between the PERFORMANCE of the two that NOTICEABLE on a daily basis, racing setups aside, that is.

My criteria for selecting would be:
1) Cost
2) Ease of installation
3) Availability of Parts

I'm being told that the GM upgrade is more expensive but easier to install.

I guess I'd go for the cost factor unless the Ford upgrade is way too hard to install (which it didn't seem like when Aaron posted it). Either way is the Ford going to provide such a significant increase that I'd know the difference if I used the Chevy stuff? That would seem like the real battle ground to me, is the difference real or negible between the two. Even if it were relatively close, I think I'd go with the cheaper alternative.

Now, if one just dusted the other, obviously I'd say screw the costs and go with the best.

I DO NOT want to open a Chevy Brand vs. Ford Brand debate. I could give a crap which car you like best. I want to know which ignition system out performs the other and by what margin, in laymens terms that I can grasp as an un-mechanically inclined educated Jeep owner that clearly defines the path I should take.

Make sense or am I confusing myself here?

Carl, Tampa, FL, 74 CJ-5
If a Jeep can't take you there, Think twice about going..
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI, TR, \'failures\'??

TR... I hope to direct this question to you... Some time back I was reading in one of the 'trade-rags' where they offer 'tips' to the techs on various subjects, where high-failure-rates have been observed. And, of course, the point of this is to alert the techs to watch for these failures, when they encounter a problem. I can't remember which mag, maybe Motor Service, or Counterman. Anyway, what I believe that I saw, was a notice on one part of the Ford TFI system - I think it was on the 'pickup'. My question is, have you ever heard of this 'high-failure-rate', or have you ever experienced it? I'm not looking to start another lengthy 'thread', and I gather from what you've already posted, that you have not experienced this 'problem'. I'm just curious. Thanks.

bobH
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI, TR, \'failures\'??

I may be wrong but I remember they had a problem with the module on the dist. People were replacing them without the
dielectic (sp) grease and it was causing problems. TR is that correct?
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI, TR, \'failures\'??

1. Thanks Aaron for the information . I trust real studys to I think this is better.

2. Please Aaron stay off the other boards I still got two HEI's I got to try to get my money out of./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

what i find so funny about this thing is the duraspark distributor is not much more than a mag trigger with an advance. so if you dont like the factory trigger, buy an msd 6a which has one built in, gives you CDI, and use whatever coil you like. has anyone tried installing a 6a on a hei? i have and it sucks!! you have to modify the distibutor to get the wires out to the box, and then modify to get them back in. and if the coil in the cap is such a good idea, why do most of the aftermarket ignition companies offer caps to eliminate the in cap coil??

i think what has happened is that a few of us have let the air out of the few who claim "hei is the only game in town, there is no better way". there is more than one way to build high output ignition systems, none are "best" (unless you spend real $$$), but most work well. the hei is fine, but it has its faults, and those who preach or sell its benefits seem to downgrade the duraspark to make the sale. if the hei is such a superior product, then it should be able to stand on its own merits without the usual bashing of other systems that we see now. now the hei guys will say we have done the same with the DS system, because someone asked what the difference is and what we told him made the hei sound less apealing.

this seems to turning into a dana 44 vs amc 20 drama. this is not how it should be, this is a place for information, and sometimes there will be conflicts. we need to move past this and get on to bigger and better things.

dan
NECESSITY IS THE MOTHER OF INVENTION
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gifLET IT SNOW/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI, TR, \'failures\'??

bob,

there were some problems with early TFI modules. but all that is being borrowed from the TFI system is the coil. they are inexpensive and very reliable. the pickup in the duraspark distributor is a simple mag trigger that is very reliable and changes out as easy as a set of points.

dan
NECESSITY IS THE MOTHER OF INVENTION
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gifLET IT SNOW/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

Carl,
I don't have any info about which system you should pick, only a few more things you need to consider. All of these things have me assuming that you have a six-cylinder. Your '74 has a points system in it and no matter which way you go, an entire distributor change is going to be necessary. If you go Duraspark you can find one in a '78 and up CJ and get the entire thing, distributor, module, and all of the wiring. If you go HEI you will need the right distributor and the right drive gear from an AMC V8. I changed my distributor from Prestolite to HEI because for me it was a much easier installation. I didn't want to mess with all of the wiring which isn't all that hard, I'm just too lazy. I happened to have the right Chevy 250 distributor in the garage from a V8 conversion that I did to a '78 Chevy pickup to boot. I have a bad habit of keeping too many useless parts. Also, my Jeep sees about 300 miles a year if it's lucky, so I am not that concerned about the module failing or holes blasting through the rotor. I have been promoting the Duraspark upgrade as most of the CJ's out there ('77 and up) already have the correct distributor and wiring already done. It makes sense for them to work with what they have and build upon a good system. In their case it's not a Ford vs Chevy thing. It's about getting the most bang for the buck. For you it is a tougher choice because either one requires a new distributor and wiring. It just depends on how good of a shopper you are and how much wiring you want to do. TeamRush and others have presented the pros and cons of each, so it's just up to you to decide if the downfalls of the HEI are worth the little bit of extra work it takes to install the Duraspark system. Cost should be very close no matter which route you take.

Bob, the failure that you read about has nothing to do with the coil that TR has suggested using. It's important to remember that TFI is an ignition SYSTEM that Ford uses and the coil is just one piece of the system.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

MY LAST WORDS ON THE SUBJECT, I PROMISE...

One real question that still remains in my mind about the TFI is that there is mention of more benefits ABOVE 4500 RPM, but how many Jeeps do you know of that turn those kind of RPM's on a regular basis? We are talking about JEEPS, not race cars or motorcycles.
My preferences for the HEI are because it puts out over 45000 volts which greatly improves cold starts and decreases fuel consumption. Two MAJOR concerns with the stock Jeep ignition systems. Then, after you've got your engine started, the larger cap design, separating terminals assists in reducing cross-firing and helps to smooth idle. Not to mention that it is a nice, neat, compact design with the coil in the cap, reducing engine compartment clutter.

I also like the idea that I've been able to install the universal HEI's in several DIFFERENT stock Jeep engines. The 225 V6, the 232/258 I6, AND the 304/360 V8 series of engines with minor modifications.

As for cost, they can be built very inexpensively and for those that don't want to go junk yard pounding and aren't comfortable with rebuilding them themselves, plenty of people out there on the net will be more than happy to help out. There are NUMEROUS sites that have great detailed install procedures very well documented and plenty of people that can offer tech support via the posting boards and e-mail.

Finally, as I have tried to state several times, this is MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE, nothing more.

best regards to all!
-Glenn

-gw
http://www.driveajeep.com
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

Well I'll be...

I've gotta admit I'm surprised, DRIVAJEEP. After reading your original posts on the HEI vs TFI controversy, I had you pegged as a rabble-rouser. Maybe you were having a bad day, maybe I was having a bad day, or maybe you thought it was the only way to get your point across. Whatever the reason, you managed to take the high road by removing/editing your ORIGINAL comments and changing this thread's subject line to give it a more reasonable tone. A class act, DRIVAJEEP. I applaud you.

To that effect, allow me to apologize for letting my emotions get the best of me. I shouldn't have attacked you personally. It's funny, I get angry at others who turn this board into a flame-fest, but when your original comments struck a nerve... I nevertheless turned right around and flamed you. It was uncalled for, and I'm sorry.

Like I said, I'm still undecided on the HEI/TFI decision. Unlike so many of you, I don't have 30 years of racing experience, Jeep experience, or any other experience (I'm only 28). I have to rely on the expertise of folks like TeamRush, DDawg16, CJDave, Snowtow, and yes... even you DRIVAJEEP. I have learned much over the last couple of months, and still have much to learn.

Thanks to everybody for contributing.

Go easy! You're talkin' to a greenhorn.
 

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Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

All I have to say is I had an HEI , took it out to try the duraspark and sold the HEI. (with enough profit to do 2 1/2 duraspark conversions)
I have done 2 more after mine.(2 /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif happy campers) 1 was a 360.
Thanks TR. Some things are "too easy to work" but they do.
I really loved my HEI but this is better!(read JUST AS GOOD AND WAY CHEAPER/EASIER) I have always carried an extra module on any ford I've ever owned although I"ve only ever had 1 failure. Go pick up a spare at the yard. $5.00 and there LOADED with shiney new ones.Cheap enough?

Thanks again Aaron. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gifCheap is good/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

I knew everything when I was 16......How come I'm so stupid now?
 

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Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

I knew the question of the TFI module was going to come up when I read it in 'MOTOR'....

We don't use the TFI module, just the TFI laminated ignition coil.
The TFI module is screwed to the outside of the distributor on the new style DuraSpark ignitions.
I don't trust that module yet...
It's like the GM HEI module, it's in the wrong place, being right there on all of the engine vibration, heat, high voltage discharges, EMI & RFI created by the same...

The difference between Motorcraft and GM is, Motorcraft already has upgraded the module twice, and I suspect will do it several more times until the problem is killed.
They did it with the TFI coil, and now it's as reliable as an anvil.

GM released the HEI module in 76, and hasn't looked at it again...
It still has the same problems it had in 76.
Some aftermarket companies like Borg-Warner have fixed some of the stuff, but it was a poor design, rushed to market too soon, and never updated during it's entire production run.
The only upgrades GM did was to it's later models, and those were small...

Delco built a better points distributor than Motorcraft in the 60"s, and Motorcraft built a better electronic ignition than Delco in the 70's.
Motorcraft stayed ahead by updating it's systems, instead of setting on a 60's design...

I have no idea what is coming next, but you bet I'm going to pick the best parts out and use them too!

The Motor craft upgrade is quick, easy, anyone can do it, requires no modification or fabrication at all unless you change the coil, and that is cutting one connector off and attaching another to the same two wires.
No hunting a power source for the so called 'one wire hookup'....
The GM HEI ignition is such a power hog, you really need to use a switched source, and a power relay to do the job correctly, and that's a hell of a lot more than 'one wire'...
If you just use a small gauge wire, you aren't saturating the coil, so you ARE NOT getting the spark energy the sellers say you will...

The Ford stuff snaps right on your existing distributor, no pulling distributors and hoping the guy that modified your GM HEI distributor knew what he was doing and used the right parts...
With the coil upgrade, you have stomped the GM HEI by 1-1/2 times in usable spark voltage.


The Ford stuff will pass emissions in every state I know of. It all looks stock, and it will make your engine run even cleaner than before...

The Ford upgrade can be done at the regular tune up time, so it costs NOTHING EXTRA! Try that with an aftermarket GM HEI! Ask the next guy spouting off about the GM HEI if he will GIVE you one for free, if you buy the cap, rotor and plug wires from a discount store...
(expect that conversation to end abruptly...)

The Ford upgrade sets you up for the next big upgrade, CDI !!
Try hooking up a MSD or other CDI module to a GM HEI...
MAJOR PAIN IN THE A$$!

To be fair, you could use the new GM remote coil, and get nearly the same energy levels as the TFI coil...
GM did a good job with the new remote coil, it's very close in design to the TFI coil...
It's a 4 wire hookup, where the TFI is the standard 2 wires...
and it will require a new module, because the primary resistance is higher...
and you can't use it with a GM HEI with out an adaptor that removes the coil from the cap... (Like ford has all along...)

So, if the Ford upgrade gives better performance, more useable spark energy, better control of the energy, cost a bucket load le$$, and can be done by ANYONE with Forest Gump's I.Q., and replacement parts are available for it in every parts store, and it is emissions legal, I don't see the need to go to the GM HEI...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a down side to this...

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JUST LIKE I HAVE ALWAYS SAID, IF YOU HAVE *ANY* DOUBTS, DON'T DO IT !!

If you can't cut two wires and reattach two others for the coil upgrade, DON'T DO THE COIL UPGRADE.

If you can't take the plug wires off and put them back on in the same order, or you can't change the distributor cap and rotor, DON'T DO THE CAP UPGRADE.

That's all there is to it.
No pulling the distributor or fabricating parts, no buying expensive aftermarket parts, no trying to follow instructions that go in circles, no missing or sub standard parts from suppliers trying to save a buck, or instructions telling you to connect to wiring that is too small to supply the GM HEI unit properly...

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If you can't do those basic tune up things, cap, rotor, plug wires, ect, you can't install a GM HEI anyway, so the entire concept of the GM HEI being simpler is insane...

My upgrade is so simple that some people can't get a grip on it...
I get 25 to 50 emails a day saying the same thing, "Did I miss something? Is $60 or $80 all it's supposed to cost? Why didn't I have to take the distributor out? Why didn't I have to cut into my wiring harness?..."

Everybody has been so abused by the aftermarket people they can't grasp the idea of the upgrade....
Also, they seem to assume because I gave the information away for free, it's worthless, except for a few of the guys here that caught on real quick, like Black Jack, Snow Tow, CJ Dave, Dirt Dog, and a few others..
If it weren't for them asking questions right away, I would have given this upgrade up a long time ago. Just wrote it off as being to technical for the readers here...
Glad to see I was wrong!

There are still a few mouth breathers that just won't get it no matter what you show them or say to them, and the guys that feel they have to defend the $$ Mega $$ purchase they made in the GM HEI, but for the most part, most of you have done a pretty good job of doing a 180 degree change in the way you have been told and were thinking....

Those 180 degree turns are really hard to do!
It's hard to take someone's word you don't really know, for something you don't really know anything about...
For the first guys that did it, it was a blind leap of faith, and I thank you for it.
I hope I explained what was going on well enough that you now understand, not only how to do the upgrade, but why it works, and why it's so much better than stock...

Good job folks, keep up the good work...
Aaron.

If Chris Columbus "Discovered" America (with 25 million already here), Can I Go "Discover" Florida?
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: STRUCK A NERVE! HEI vs TFI

Aaron, that's just what I needed to know.. HELLO MOTORCRAFT...

Carl, Tampa, FL, 74 CJ-5
If a Jeep can't take you there, Think twice about going..
 
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