Picture 2

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

I forgot, I should buy new stuff for it right? Cap, rotor, plugs, wires, that O ring, and an oil change is what I was planning on, anything I am forgetting? Thanks.

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

Hey man, I thought your motor was going bad? Circular saw? PLEEZE KEEP THE VIDEO RUNNING! Ever heard of a 4" side grinder?
Oh yeah, keep the video running!
Be safe
RQ

'68 "in the process" Charlotte, NC

 

My motor is going bad, but it is like this old cat we have, it will not die! I just cannot locate a replacement at the moment. Problems with that and HEI? I will have my fiend take some pics of the grinding, no video camera, sorry. Sound files could be interesting..... It sounds like an easy swap from what I have read, nothing I cannot handle or figure out. Only the wiring, everyone seems to just have a one wire hookup, well as you can see in the pics I have three coming off of one side, and one red wide coming off of the other side on a box that says "tach bat" I guess that is my wire, what are the others for? Where can I hook up a tach? I made up my mind about the conversion, it is going in, I have all the stuff minus that one special bolt, I will have to order that tomarrow at the parts store. I have to do this conversion, my Willys is not at the house right now, the SM465 Tranny I am buying has to wait till tomarrow to pick up, and weeks to put in, and I am sort of bored, all I can do is stare at Hurc, nothing major to do! No one to wheel with either, man, better look for something to do..... that headlight needs replacing...... see ya!

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

Important - is it ODD FIRE -- or EVEN FIRE distributor - it does make a big difference?

Have you learned to use that timing light yet? - you'll need it. Check where the timing is BEFORE YOU TAKE OUT THE OLD DIST!

TACH/BATT terminals - there's 2 terminals there - BATT goes dirctley to 12 volt ignition switch - no resistor.
TACH goes to your tach if so equipped.

You don't grind or saw the bolt itself.

You'll have to address the vacuum advance curve difference too - the HEI's advance is way too sensitive for that carb, it'll advance way too fast. You need to put on an adjustable vacuum advance diaphram and adjust it "tight" - adj screw all the way out - and put the limiter cam on so it travels only about part way. Once you get the adjustable unit, you'll see what I mean.

Otherwise it's an easy swap..

 

Rrich, I took the cap off my dist. and looked at what I have to grind, I see there is a lip of the intake manifold that needs to be taken off, grinding the bolt would not be a good idea, got that one covered. Vacuum adjuster deal.... I am going to the parts store tomarrow, do I just ask for one of those? Possibly the GM dealer will have it. I am trying to get into this without a great deal of $$, I have a tranny in sight, adapters for that, still on the engine hunt, and I need to get this full roll cage in. I guess the GM dealer will be lots cheaper than the Jeep dealer! I found out how to take out the distributor, how do I find TDC? Just take off the #1 spark plug wire and bump the ignition till I see the rotor deal through the hole? Set timing first, put it all on TDC, note rotor position as I pull the distributor out, plug hole, grind away, install new bolt, put in the other dist. with the rotor facing the same way, hook up the wires, crank her over! Sweet, I can do this. I do not understand all tehis vacuum advance stuff, but the gouy at the parts store seems to know what you are talking about, I will just ask him. (I usually print your posts, show that to him, and install the parts he gives me.)

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

Use your timing light to find out what your timing is at right now before you start the project. That alone could be the crux of some of your running complaints. Tell me what it was.

At the parts house ask for a GM HEI (make sure it's for HEI) adjustable vacuum advance unit. It's a performance part, but not "pink."
They will probably have to order it, it's not an unusual part, just not a normal stocking item.
Speed and performance shops have them, maybe even boat shops.
It's easiest to install it before you put the distributor in. Read the instructions, most require an allen wrench through the vacuum port. Set it for the tightest, or least sensitive setting, it seems backwards, but "tight" is screwed all the way out (inside you are making a spring work harder.)
Install the little limiter cam that comes with it, otherwise you'll really regret it. Set it so it only travels about 1/2 way (that's about 15 degrees.) Again, you'll see.

Determine which is #1 on your present cap, mark it so you can locate it again easily. Make note of all the other wires too, where they go etc.

Roll the engine till the timing mark on the damper lines up with the pointer.
Take off the cap - if the rotor tip is not pointed at where the number one wire was, roll the engine over 1 full turn till the marks line up again - it should be close now.
Now your engine is at TDC, you can take out the distributor now.

Do your grinding, cover the hole so no filings get in. The tiny abrasive pieces of the grinding wheel - well you can imagine what they will eat inside your engine.

Install the new distributor, make sure it seats all the way down, the very bottom of the shaft has to line up with the oil pump shaft deep inside - look in the hole while it's out, you'll see. If the shafts (tang and slot) don't line up it won't seat all the way down, maybe 1/4 inch up too high - it's important it seats properly. You can damage the pump shaft, pump, or suffer a loss of oil pressure. No forcing it, no hammers, no pressure at all. If it's lined up properly it will drop right in. You may have to reach in the hole and turn the pump shaft a few degrees to line it up. DO NOT TURN THE ENGINE AT ALL. You won't like the procedure you'll have to go through to find TDC again without a distributor in it.

Place the HEI cap on the distributor - note which terminal on the cap says #1. Mark it so you know where the rotor should be pointing - mark the manifold, a hose, splash panel, something to use as a guide.
Remove the cap again.
Install the rotor (watch the keys, square and round holes underneath). If you are lucky it will be pointing at your mark you just made. If not, lift the distributor up about 1/2" till the rotor will turn, position it so that when the dist is all the way seated, the rotor is pointing very near your mark.
You may have to do it a few times, you may have to take it all the way out and reposition the pump shaft with a long screwdriver, but it has to be done right.

Once it's in right, put the hold down bolt in, tighten gently, barely more than finger tight.

Wire the rest of the plug wires, clockwise, 1,6,5,4,3,2.
Wire the primary. Bypass the resistor on the firewall, run the wire that used to go to the + on the coil to the BATT terminal with a spade lug. Ditch the wire that went to the starter solenoid from the coil.
Hook your tach wire to the terminal labeled TACH, also a spade lug.

Start it.

Use your timing light to set initial timing to 8 degrees by twisting the body of the distributor. Lock it down, not gorilla tight, just snug.

It's actually easy, the total time should be about 1 - 1.5 hours.

Use the same plugs, some people will tell you otherwise, but changing the heat range is dangerous, a good way to burn valves etc. Use the same old firing order as before. If you want you can set the gap wider to .035, even up to .040.

Actually you haven't changed anything to do with the engine, all you've done is changed the way the spark is created. Now the spark has a little more voltage and lots more amperage. The rise time is much faster too, thet's what really makes the HEI shine.

You'll find it outperforms all these so called MSD's and "pink" high performance stuff. (Funny, MSD's - Multiple Spark Discharge, systems don't do what they are professed to do at speeds over 3000 RPM where it's needed the most. There simply isn't enough time to light the plug more than once. You can easily see that on a scope.)

The only negative is if you have to push start or roll start it, you have to go much faster before it starts.

Carry a spare rotor and module, the weak links.

Enjoy

 

Reading through all the old posts i was right on track, then it got a bit fuzzy, then I was lost in wonderland. Here is a picture of the top of the cap, does it look right for an off fire? I got the assumption that 3 unevenly spaced sets of evenly spaced sets of two points was the ticket, am I correct? I started taking some stuff apart on the distributor, looks pretty cool inside there, do I need to replace the cap and rotor? They look to be in good shape, and I want to make shure I like this modification before I go get all this stuff for it. Just clean the contacts on it and see what it does? Also if I do replace the cap, is the big electrical jobbie on top of it the module? That needs to come out when the new cap comes right? How do you undo the electrical connections? This is all pretty cool so far, I will set my timing tomarrow and depending on how fast that bolt comes in I will convert this week.

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

I noticed the factory "BAT" connector in one of the pictures. Do yourself a favor and use the factory "BAT" connector. The factory "BAT" connector will "CLIP" into the distributor cap! I've done several HEI conversions, mostly small block chevy, the factory connector will not fall out of the distributor! If the wire to the "BAT" falls out of the distributor, the engine will die! As far as wiring, the "BAT" terminal will need to have 12 volts when the ignition switch is in the "ON" & " START" positions. The HEI does not need a ballast resistor!!!!!!!!
dave

 

I hardly need anything, rip out the ballast resistor, bring that wire along the route where my coil wire goes, over to the HEI unit, and rip out the coil and if I had that wire, the one that feeds it 12 volts at starting. Simple wiring, I will put a ziptie around that connector and the cap to make shure that it will not come out. Ordering stuff this morning, thanks guys.

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

The thing in the middle of the cap is the coil. It has a connector on the side of the cap that disconnects, then unscrew the cover.
Look inside the distributor. Unevenly spaced tips on the stationary part (stator/pickup coil) with 3 points on the shaft (pole piece) is odd fire.

Evenly spaced tips with 6 tips on the shaft is even fire - the wrong distributor for a 225.

The black plastic flat thing inside with 2 wires on each end is the module.

If the cap and rotor appear to be in good shape, why replace it?

You can test the whole thing out of the car - just jumper the housing to (-) batt, apply 12v (+) to the BATT terminal, then spin the shaft.
The resulting spark will knock you clear into the middle of next week!
Don't get shocked by it, it can be lethal. It's already killed several people.

Check your parts books to make sure that is the right cap for that distributor #. There are 3 or 4 different caps that will fit, only one is the right one.

 

Make sure you run a #10 gauge wire from the ing. switch to the batt side of the dist. just remove the old ing wire at the swicth. This will help prevent the coil from burning up.

Happy Trails, Jim Serr, AJC founder and president.

 

I still cannot figgure out if this is an even or odd fire distributor, but I was told it was an odd fire one, and the ajustable vacuum advance will be here tomarrow, yet the manifold bolt is tuning into a hard chase. None of the GM dealers seem to have it or list it for that matter. I am going to visit the Jeep dealership today and pick some brains on those overpriced wierdos. I will just take my chance and say this is an odd fire distributor, it feels right to me. What ever this pole thing is and points all over will all come out when it works or not right? I will set the timing and pull the distributor in preparation for grinding tonight, we will see how it goes! Thanks

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

Rrich, if the underside of the cap is what you are talking about i have 6 little metal things in there. They look pretty evenly spaced, 2 long ones, 2 medium sized ones, and two short ones, what do i have? Here is a picture of what I am looking at right now, (bless the digital camera) what do i need to count?

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

take a picture of the stator on the dist. not the cap. Underneight those fly weight will be six points like a star. If even it is a even fire if odd , well you get the point. But the cap does not matter because it will fit both.

brownbagg

 

Thanks, it is odd then, they are unevenly spaced in there. I will time it right now, then take the sucker out, I think i found the manifold bolt, I hope it is the right one. The GM dealers had no clue, the Jeep dealer at least pulled up a diagram on the 2.8 craptastic 6 Cly, but the bolt was the wrong one when he pulled it from the shelf. I went by my buddies that owns the 4x4 shop and he gave me something that looks like the right thing, a torx button head bolt that looks like a regular manifold bolt, lets cross fingers! See ya in a bit, I am going to pull this bad boy, see if Hurc cannot get to running a bit better. What ever the outcome, I can always say it was a good learning experience. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Attention! March! To the garage we will go, marching two by two, armed with HEI, wrenches, a BFH, and a word of advise or two! See ya!

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

the torx button bolt is the correct bolt

brownbagg

 

if you are using the stock intake manifold, the torx bolt offered by GM is short and may strip out. the bolt area on a 231 is thinner then the 225 one. After market intakes are not thick either and work good. I have always used a regular hex head bolt when I was doing HEI conversions for customers with no problem.

Happy Trails, Jim Serr, AJC founder and president.

 

O.K. Update, last night Hurc comes down with migrane, no good, but this afternoon I am all beter, after a short talk with Rich on the phone the engine was put on TDC and I pulled the distributor. Looks pretty cool in there, never seen anything like it. Then I went to the parts store, picked up my adjustible vacuum advance unit, the part number is in the picture if anyone needs it, and installed it. 5 minutes, no big deal, I also replaced the springs as the package recomemded for the wieghts, a blue (heavy) and a silver (medium) spring were put in. Then I installed the little limiter cam, set it so the deal can only go half way back, put alen wrench in the canister and turned it all the way counter clockwise opposite the instructions (I love Jeepsters) and indeed that spring is tight! Very tight in fact. So now I am there. I am now going to start grinding, how fun! Thanks Jim on the bolt tip, comparing the bolts I see what you mean, the one I got is a bit shorter for shure, I guess I will pick what one to use when I get there. Thanks Rich again, you are the best, GRQ, the camera is rolling......

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

You might have a clearance problem with the vacuum hose where it attaches to the nipple on the advance can with the fan belt. The factory can that came on my odd-fire HEI had the nipple pointing up rather than out, so when the correct can was swapped in, the nipple was bent up slightly with a pair of pliers, (be carefull not to go too far or it might snap). Some cars came from the factory with a pre-formed 90 degree bend in the vacuum hose. Might be worth hunting for in the yards. My '76 Waggie had one.

Tim
'66 Jeepster Commando w/Buick 252/4.1L V-6
'70 Wagoneer w/Buick 350 V-8

 

Wipe that dirty rotor down with rubbing alcohol, then let it dry good before putting the cap back on.
Those dirty finger marks are conductive - the super fast rise time combined with the higher amperage HEI will instantly burn that dirt into a conductor. You'll have a premature failure.

Clean, clean, clean. A very good cleaner, and cheap, is rubbing alcohol. It's not conductive and leaves very little residue.
No WD-40! WD-40 doesn't prevent rust, and it attracts water. It's just kerosene and perfume.

Get any rust off the weights too. Touch your clean finger to one drop of motor oil, wipe half of it off, then rub the rest around on the weights and where they mount to prevent more rust. Rust is very conductive, causing more failures. But oil inside there is also conductive, so you don't want it flying around. Just enough to make a thin film of it.

Wipe down the module inside too. If you take off the module you'll see a white looking grease under it. Don't clean it off, if you do, you absolutly MUST put more on.

It's not ordinary grease, it's heat sink compound, heat conducting grease. Available at any parts house.
Make sure it's heat conducting and meant for modules.

There are 2 kinds parts stores sell, the wrong one is called dialectric compound. That's an insulator - it holds the heat in -- wrong one!

If you use the wrong type grease, or no grease, expect the module to only last 5 minutes or so till it destroys itself.
It runs really hot normally, so it needs to conduct it's heat into the aluminum body of the distributor.

Tell how it runs!

 

The photo of the cap shows the numbering going counter-clockwise. Last time I looked it needs to go clockwise!!?!!

 

Thanks walter, I already cought that one though. Sorry GRQ, no grinding pics, it all went smoothly with the circular saw, it fit fine in there with the fan removed, I think I might have ground down a bit much, we will see if the head cracks I guess, then i will be buying mass amounts of JB weld! It all fits in there and rotates fine, I am sitt figuring out some stuff before I start it, I want to make shure I thought evrything out right and do not lose my TDC. It is all hooked up and ready to rock, we will see what it does. Rrich sad the worst thing it could do is blow up the garage, so that is on my side atleast. Better go finish her up, I want to go drive her around and see what she does, see ya.

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

After talking with the king (like elvis) of odd fires, Mr. Rich, the Jeepster is purring like a kitten. (not really, that bad lifter gives it a bull dog effect) But none the less the HEI is in, the engine works and I am very pleased. Hurc has always started well, but now it even starts better, we will notice when the temp starts dropping into the -10°F range around those January 7:00 AM mornings. Then again Hurc is spoiled and stays in the heated garage, but if I do leave it out one night...... I have not driven it around yet, but the idle jumped up about 60 or so RMP from listening to it, it runs at a clean 8° advanced on the timing (used to skip around on 12-14° advanced) and just sounds better idleing. Not bad for the $23 some odd dollars I spent on the whole deal, I cannot wait to give her some gas on the road tomarow and see what I notice. I wired it with a pink 12 gauge wire from the ignition, so I should get some extra pink power. Now looking at the wires I do have in the engine bay after I took out the coil and ballast resistor, most of them are pink! Ahhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! See ya, thanks again Rich.

John
yes, my user name is a typo, go figure.

 

John -
Now that it's running, you still have a little more work to do.

Just installing an HEI is not all that needs to be done. You have to "dial it in" to make it work like it really can.

Roll the engine to TDC. Since you don't have timing marks beyond 10 you need to make some.

Clean the damper and the pointer first.

Mark on the damper where 10 degrees is when the heavy mark, the scribed line, is right on 0.
Now move it to where that new mark is at the 0 on the pointer, make another mark at the 10 again, that's 20 degrees, put a 2 or something so it's obvious.
Do it again, marking the 30 degree point, then the 40.
Be as accurate as you can.

You can use a dab of white, yellow, or silver paint to make it easy to see. Put a tiny dab right on the 0 notch too, to make things easy. A drop on the end of a nail works great as a brush.

Disconnect the vacuum advance hose.
Start it, take a reading - this is your "Initial Timing." It should be about 8 degrees.
Run it up to cruise speed, take a reading. The difference is how much your mechanical advance moved it. It should have moved it 10 to 15 degrees more than the initial.

-- This where your new marks come into play. Use the 0 notch on the pointer as the reference and the new marks on the damper you just made. You'll have to estimate, but you'll be close enough. If the 0 looks half way between the new 10 and 20, then it's 15.

Soooo - if you had 8 to begin with, and it moved 10, it now would be reading 18.

Now reconnect the vacuum line to the advance. Take another reading at idle to make sure the vacuum isn't affecting it at idle, it should still be at the Initial reading. -- If it moves the timing you have the wrong vacuum type on the line. It needs ported vacuum, not manifold vacuum.

Now rev it up to cruise speed again.
Take another reading. The difference between what you saw at cruise last time and now is how much the vacuum moved it. It should have moved another 10 or 15 again.
That total reading should not exceed 35 degrees. More than that can and will create problems, like low mileage and overheating.

If the vacuum advance is taking it too far, beyond 35, you can set the little limiter cam inside the distributor that came with the adjustable vacuum advance to limit it a little more. If it's much below 35, adjust it for more.
Initial 8
Mechanical + ? (10-15)
Vacuum + ? (10-15)
Total = 35

That last little bit of detailing can make a world of difference.

Carry a spare rotor and module off road. Remember, if you create a big spark anywhere in the system, even the taillights, it could blow the module if the key was on.

I've seen guys blow the module hooking up trailer lights. The spark has a high frequency component that kills the module.

Enjoy.