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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I re-did the timing cover seal on my 225, and now I cannot get the thing to start. I am not a motor guru at all, so I really don't know how to get it started. The problem is with the timing (stock dist), because I have spark, I have fuel, and while the air is thin up here, we still have it. OK, put dist back in, TDC, rotor at #1, crank crank crank, pow! Big backfire. So my buddy has this brilliant idea that we are 180 degrees out. Shure, take the dist back out, rotate it, put it back in, crank crank crank nothing. Then we starting twisting the dist and we almost had it running, really really close, it would run, but really rough and only for about 6 seconds. Cap off, turned the crank to zero degrees and the rotor is pointed 180 degrees out again (I know why now but....) so we were baffled and swapped the dist yet again so the rotor was pointed the right way. By now we have messed with the dist so many times we don't have a clue where it should be and it was 3:00AM. Dist back out, good night.

So.... How do I figure out how to put this thing back in right and get it running again? I have a timing light hooked up, and using it while starting it was clear that the timing was way off, because we could not see the timing mark on the crank. Any help would be great, I wanna go wheeling this weekend with no oil leaks and way low gears...../wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif

John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 

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Maybe while the cover was off, it got that strange 40 deg. off flu? ;o)

Bobster
o O||||O o
71 Jeepster "Soft Top" Wagon (mangled)
71 "Partster" wagon (donor)
70 Jeepster Half Cab
01 Wrangler
56 F-100 Street Rod
 

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John, to quote yourself..."use the SEARCH"! ;P
From the sound of it, yours is doing the exact same thing mine was doing, ended up being the ignition switch was OFF. Could a wire got yanked out/off somewhere? Do you get a flash from the TLight after you stop cranking, but engine still turning?
Anyway, back several months ago (when I was fighting mine) Rich posted some very good details about proper setup. It's in a thread called "All Buicks are not created equal" or something like that. Hope this helps, I want to go wheeling this weekend too. Have to wait for the Jam though.

Caver Dave
'68 Jeepster SW
225 & 3spd
Vintage Jeeps(ters) have Character,
new Jeeps just have payments.
 

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If you didn't move the timing chain then that should still be in the right place.

Pull #1 plug and crank the engine by hand until you feel the pressure (compression) building up in there. Continue cranking until the piston is to the top. I place a straw in there and go slowly until it starts going back down. A screwdriver will work also, but you have to be careful not to scratch up the cylinder wall. Now you are at Top dead center for #1 cylinder. Your timing marks should be lined up on #1 on the harmonic balancer and the 0 degree mark on your engine. If not then something slipped when the cover was off. It they are lined up, don't move the engine and install the distributor in the original position before you removed the timing cover. Hopefully you marked this before you began. If not, mine normally points off center towards the passenger headlight. Make sure your wire are on the correct terminals if you move the distributor, rotor points to #1 cylinder. Try to start it again. If it still doesn't start, then find TDC again on number one and remove the timing cover. Each gear has a dot on it and they must be lined up with each other. If not remove the timing chain and line them Move the cam shaft since moving the crank will move you off TDC up. Wth the dots lined up now your mark on the harmonic balancer should be lined up with the timing mark on the engine block. Are all three things lined up, great. Then put everything back together. Put the distributor back to the original position and start your engine. Time it and you are on your way.





Mike, '70 Pick-up
Las Vegas, NV
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Mike, the straw idea is a great trick, never thought of that. It should be no problem now, I just get frustrated with this motor crap, I need to take one apart so I can understand how they work better. I did not mess with the timing chain, the motor ran great when I pulled it and swapped it in.

Dave, I don't need to search, I read each and single post on the BBS, so..... Most posts on the distributor problems are for a 231 buick or an HEI conversion. I already converted to HEI, been there, done that, now it is on to new things, new motor, not many posts on stock stuff. I just needed to find TDC again, that was my only real problem. Straws rule.



John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The 40 degree off flu..... What is involved with that again? Was there ever a fix? This is a new motor, my old motor had that problem though, so I guess I will see if this has it. When I pulled the dist everything seemed to be lined up fine.

John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 

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Hurc- For some reason I can't get through on your email - keeps coming back.
I don't think you disassembled the front end of the engine did you, like remove or reposition the timing gears? If I remember right, all you did was reseal the cover? It won't jump by itself.

Remove distributor and #1 plug, crank it with your thumb over the plug hole. You'll feel compression every other stroke or rotation.
Stop cranking it when you feel the compression building.
Manually turn the crank till the TDC mark lines up with about 8 degrees. (If you are in doubt you got the rigfht stroke, you can remove the left valve cover, verify that both rockers are "up," meaning both valves are closed. If you were on the "back" side, one or both valves will be open slightly. Sometimes it's hard to tell, move the crank back and forth about 45 degrees, neither rocker should move on the compression stroke.)

I'll assume you never removed the wires from the cap during all the suspension surgery. Put the distributor in so the rotor is now pointing at the tang on the inside of the cap - the one that #1 wire is on. Remember, those tangs are not necesarily lined up with the tower on the outside of the cap. Helps to make a mark on the outside of the cap to show the placement of it.
It should start now. But it may not have much power, you've got a 50/50 chance it's "out of sequence." Remember what it took when you installed the HEI? Possibly the same thing. You may have to go through the same process as before.

If it seems to really lack power, it's "out." When "Out of sequence 1/2 the cylinders are way out of time by about 30 degrees"
One way to verify that would be with the cyl #2 trick at 3000 RPM with vacuum attached - remember that one?

You may have to prime it with a couple of teaspoons of fuel to initially start it.
You mentioned you aren't getting fuel either. Sitting for so long, the accelerator pump cup may have dried out. If fuel's getting to the carb OK, then pop the top and soak the pump's cup in 30wt oil an hour or so. Usually you can mop out the gas in the bowl and pump cylinder well, squirt a couple squirts of the oil in the well, then reassemble. By the time you are ready to start it, the cup's swelled enough to work again. Leather cups have that bad habit.



98% is Understanding it
"Don't Fix Unless Broke"
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks a lot Rrich, that really helps. I did mention that I was not geting fuel, and I think you are right, it has been dry for a long time, and letting it soak overnight with gas in the bowl, it was working perfect today. I replaced all the plugs and wires, so I did mess with that, but the firing order is correct, I have checked it a few times. I will start over tomarrow and see what I come up with. I never took the chain off, just re-sealed it, but I think the chain needs replacing later, it was pretty loose. It ran fine before, so I left it. I remember the out of sequence deal, luckily the cap for the stock dist has cyl numbers marked on it, that is the big problem with the HEI cap that does not. I am still keeping the HEI on my other motor, but I figured the stock setup was best for the trail, and HEI was for my street motor. I will post my findings tomarrow around 4pm or so. I am taking a trip to Denver in the morning to meet up with Joe67convertible to get some new wheels for my willys wagon and find a PS pump bracket. Thanks again, I think Yahoo has a few problems this week, I too have had trouble sending out e-mails.

John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 

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Uh Oh, the timing chain shouldn't have felt "loose." It's got 2 spring loaded tensioners on it to keep it "tight," even when it's badly worn.
Do you remember if it's the plastic toothed gear (original and OEM?
If a tensioner has failed, it's dangerous. It may run, even run fine - for awhile, then jump. Not a good thing to happen on the trail.


98% is Understanding it
"Don't Fix Unless Broke"
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It was tight on one side, loose on the other as I remember, only one tensioner. I think it was a metal toothed deal, never saw any plastic. This motor was out of a daily driver Jeepster, never jumped, but it always could I guess. Once I get my other motor all together and running good I may swap motors and re-do the chain, but not now. Look at me, 10:00PM and I just got back from Denver. But I got my pump and bracket, so that is good. Back to the Jeepster, I will see if I can get this thing going. (off topic: why do all the little chinese cars and such have rubber timing belts? Seems really weak.)

John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 

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Timing belts are generally quieter than chain/gear drives. I think it's also a builtin weakness, as they are generally only good for 50-80k miles (depending on manf.) and trash major amounts of internals (if the heads aren't non-interference type). This way when they break, the valves contact the heads, bends the valves, ventilates the pistons, and/or snaps the cam. Then it's a trip to Mr.Motos house of pain. BTW, a bunch of Euro-American engines (Fords EXP) have had them for years. My Accord currently has 250,000 on it with only 2 timing belt changes (but I have the non-interfer type heads).
Let us know what you find out on the Jeepster.

Caver Dave
'68 Jeepster SW
225 & 3spd
Vintage Jeeps(ters) have Character,
new Jeeps just have payments.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Alright, I am doing this by myself now, no helpers in the wee hours of the morning.... I found a way to route my ignition switch through the firewall through a factory hole. Works pretty dandy. Anyway, I bumped the starter till I felt compression, rotated the crank till the timing mark was on 8 degrees, popped in my distributor, and no luck. It acts like it wants to backfire, and I was trying to time it while starting and the mark was way low. So I took the dist back out, re-did it all, and dropped my distributor..... I broke the rotor, but I had a spare distributor and used it's rotor. Anyway, all back together, and still nothing. I am timing it while it is starting and the mark is right on at 8 degrees. Problem is that the light is only flashing every once and a while.... I am not shure if I am only getting spark once every few, or if my timing light is junk. The light was a hand me down along with my dwell meter, they must be 40 years old..... The funny thing is that it has not done this before. Could it be the spare rotor? I will get a new one tomarrow. It has about 3 good turn overs and then one real tough slow one. I thought my battery might be dead, but I swapped optimas with the willys wagon and the starter turns over the same. Also, I don't have my oil pressure gauge hooked up, but I have the line hooked up, and I am not getting any oil out of the line when starting over. I thought this was a bad thing, I have not touched the oil pump, never even re-sealed it. The distributor is on the oil pump shaft, I made shure it was all the way seated. Clues on that one??? I re-did the oil pan gasket, hopefully I did not mess up a pickup or something. This is a new oil change, so the filter might just be filling up with oil? Hopefully I will have better luck tomarrow, rght now I am going to figure out my power steering pump mounting.

John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 

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Hurc,

You must have a belly full of ambition. I could not keep that many "open" projects straight in my head.
Noticed you said that you only had only one tensioner and a metal gear. I put a new chain on this winter and I also had only only one tensioner. I picked up another and made it right. It seems strange that someone would only put one back on. Someone must a replaced the chain before if you have a metal gear. How many miles on the engine?

Good Luck.



CJ
1967 225, TH400 Jeepster
 

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Definately it needs 2 tensioners, one on each side.
Sounds like you need to go in there.
It needs both sides of the chain pulled at the same time to get the proper tension - to keep it from jumping. One side is not enough. Even cranking can let it slip.
To my surprise, I found Pep Boys had all the tensioner parts - in stock, didn't even have to order them.

The oil pressure may be a problem too, or lack of it. The distributor's bottom end turns the pump shaft.

You said you had the oil line connected but no gauge. If the end's open, you should be getting a good stream across the room of oil. If you've got it pinched or sealed off you may not see it in plastic line.
Try cranking it a moment with the line open. Or, better yet, pre-lube the bearings and everything by spinning the pump shaft with a drill. An old screwdriver blade or flattened rod with a piece of rubber hose over it to keep it centered on the pump shaft works great. Spin the drill clockwise, just like the dist turns.

Could be not starting is 'cause the filter and passages are empty, the hydraulic lifters aren't pumped up yet so you have no valve action.

The dist - I think you said you are using the standard distributor again. Are the points actually opening and closing?: Look closely. Use your dwell meter during cranking, set to 28 degrees or so. Condenser in place and tight? Ground strap that runs from breaker plate to housing not broken?

Voltmeter -
Points open = +12 volts to the (+) side of the coil? +12 to the (-) side?

Points closed = approx 7 volts to the (+) side of the coil, 0 to the (-) side?

Cranking approx 9 volts to the (+) side of the coil?

Check your timing light on another car for intermittant flashes, if steady, it's probably the Jeepster.

That should keep you busy a couple of hours anyway.

I want to hear how all those mods on the suspension work, so get it going!





98% is Understanding it
"Don't Fix Unless Broke"
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yikes, better get to work..../wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif I wish I had another vehicle to test the timing light on, but none of the others work at the moment...... besides the Tacoma, and there is no way to hook up my old style timing light to it. I will go pull it outside and mess around with it some more. The bitch stole all my money, time, and gives me no love in return...../wwwthreads_images/icons/shocked.gif

John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 

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when you finally get it right, it will.

toad
3-72' commando wagons
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Still no oil coming through the line, but I have not done the deal with the drill yet. It might not be cranking fast enough for the oil to come through.

I bought a new rotor and points, the old points looked O.K. there was only about 500 miles on them anyway. So I installed the new points, they are opening, the gap looks good, the cap looks fine, I am out of guesses here! Still will not start, but I am getting a slight backfire out of the carb. I guess I bettter double check that it is not 180 degrees out. How could it be out of sequence? I don't se how it could be. I will put my timing light back on it and see what it does with the new points. Constant cranking should fill the lifters back up right? They are not new, I never touched the intake manifold.

John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
It is soooo close!!!! I dinked around with the timing some more twisting the distributor this way and that, and it ALMOST took off and started. Vroom vrooom dead. IT is still trying to do it, but it cannot keep going. I am sitting right next to it moving the throttle, but no go. I took off the valve cover breather and the rockers are moving, so I guess the lifters work, there is a smokey mist coming out of the cover when I try and start it. Still no oil, I tried putting my finger over the line as I tried to start it, and I could feel no pressure. That dist is seated right, so i am starting to wonder. Back to the Jeep, I left it for a while to make shure I did not flood it.

John
48 CJ-2A, 49 Willys truck, 70 Jeepster Commando, 89 Wrangler, 98 4x4 Tacoma
 
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