Why the hell are you putting a $1,500 dry sump on a stock engine in a mustang?
--------------------------------

On with the show...

DO YOU NEED A DRY SUMP SYSTEM

There are only three reasons to use a dry sump oiling system.
1. To control oil flow to specific areas of the engine.
Unlike single wet sump oil pumps that deliver through a preset series of drilled oil passages, you can direct a dry sump system to deliver oil pressure and volume to any accessible point in the oiling system.
IE: during extreme high rpm operation, you will have to supply extra oil supply to rods, or crank, or camshaft, so the dry sump system can do that...

2. To control oil consistent oil supply during high 'G' loading.
During racing, high 'G' forces are sometimes created. In drag racing, the oil wants to stack up in the back of the valve covers, and climb the back of the oil pan, starving the stock type oil sump for supply, and starving the engine for oil.
In circle track racing, the oil tends to stack up in the right valve cover, and climb the right side of the oil pan, again, starving the engine for supply.
With a dry sump oiling system, you can tap the areas that will contain the oil surplus, and deliver it to the separation/ supply tank for recycling through the system.

3. To provide a reliable source of lubrication when the engine is at extreme angles.
On some engines that will be operated a severe angles (Like hill climbers or rock climbers), the stock engine oil pump sump may be uncovered if the angle of the engine is severe enough.
If you turn a properly prepared dry sump oiling system on it's side, there will still be a steady supply of oil to the engine. With a stock oiling system, the engine will be starved for oil supply and fail.
--------------------------------

ALTERNATIVES
In most stock cases, a deep sump oil pan with good baffling, and a good oil pump is the best (and cheapest) bet.
Ford motor sports oil pumps are capable of supplying the 5.0 engine to about 6,500 RPM real reliably.
Put your money in a good grade of oil.
Keep in consideration that you will be pulling three or more pumps, so the horsepower drain is at least three times that of a normal oil pump.
Racers don't just attach a dry sump system because it looks cool. They are a pain in the butt to install and maintain, and they are horsepower thieves.
No one uses one unless they absolutely have to, so if you don't, then save your money (and sanity!).
---------------------------------

HOW IT WORKS

A dry sump oiling system works with what is two, three or more pumps attached back to back with each other.
Some pump oil out of the engine to a separation/ cooling tank.
You need a separation tank because the pumps are a 'Total Loss' system, meaning they pump every drop of oil out of the engine they can get.
With more than one pump pumping the oil out, you can put one sump hose in the bottom of the pan, one in the side or back of the pan, one in the valve cover(s), one in the lifter gallery, or anywhere oil accumulates.
This is called 'Scavenging'.

Once the scavenged oil is in the separation tank, the air pumped along with the oil is separated in a baffled oil tank. Aerated oil is pumped into the middle of the tank, air bubbles go up, and the thickened, rapidly cooling oil drops to the bottom of the tank.
The tank can be anywhere from a few quarts for super light weight, to several gallons for cooling and capacity control.

Once the oil is separated from the air, and is cooled (one pump can be dedicated to just passing the oil through the oil cooler)... there will be one or more pumps dedicated to returning oil to the engine.
With separate pumps and lines, different oil pressures and volumes can be delivered to different parts of the engine.
The lifter galleries can get one volume and/ or pressure, and the rods and mains can get another pressure and volume, and have it delivered from more than one direction into the block.
(With a dry sump, delivering oil to the rear mains is easy)
---------------------------------

WHAT TO EXPECT
To do the job right, you will need to do a substantial amount of machining on your engine block.
If you use an oil filter 'Adaptor' to hook the system up, you have just wasted a lot of time and money. You need direct access to the oil galleries, and the only way to do that is to machine into the block, and tap the holes for fittings.

You will have to remove a lot of material, and you will have to block and/or redirect several oil passages.
You will have to fit the block with several fittings for the incoming/ scavenged oil streams.
You will own stock in the steel braided line company by the time you get everything plumbed!!

You will have to have a custom oil pan, custom valve covers, several custom types of fittings, check valves, pressure relief valves, vents, ect, ect....
It is a plumbers nightmare.

You will have to build custom brackets and make room for the coolers, the separation tank, the valving and all of the hoses.
You will have to build custom brackets built for the dry sump pumps also, and most of your other accessories will not fit in their stock locations, if at all...

Hope this helps you make up your mind.

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

 

No its going in my YJ.
I spend much of the time, in the rocks turning less than 1500 rpms on a 45 deg angle, stopping, starting, etc. Ive alsways thought a dry sump would be the best way to keep an engine well oiled and cooled in 0 mph, high ambient temperature, conditions like this.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

A little more expensive than you thought, Jeff. Well I wish you the best on
getting the engine together. I emailed your address to our registration guy so
you should form shortly after News Years. Hope to see you at Safari.

Gary

 

Anybody have any helpful info.
Brand names, configurations, size of reservoires etc.
I was thinking about listing this post as "Bush scratched his butt wrong in the Debate" so that I could get some responses.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

From what Aaron said and from my (limited) experience, a deep pan, a swinging pickup and an oil cooler would serve the purpose very well. And you could spend the extra few G's somewhere else.

The oil requirements of a V-8 engine putting out a hundred or so hp at 1500 rpms are pretty minimal. I think that there is benefit in cooling the oil at low speeds like that, but I think the dry sump system would be overkill.

Jason '87YJ
"If you didn't build it, it isn't yours . . ."

 

Thanks Jason,
But although I think building a 350HP motor is rediculuose for a Rock Crawler, that is still the direction that some people decide to go. I have thought about using a Dry sump system for a long time, my check book still has plenty of checks in it, so Im not concerned with a couple $1000. I was just wondering about actual application savy from anyone who has installed , maintained, and or ran with them.
I could definitely use some real world experience, rather than the just the opinion from a Summit Racing POroducts or AFCO parts Salesman.
Any help would be appreciated.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

If you're going to make a major change to the oiling system, you need to figure out what inherent problem with the existing system you're trying to correct.

Does the current system starve a particular section or location of the engine? (AMC V-8 rear cyl main bearings, for example) To my knowledge, the SBFord doesn't have this type of trouble at reasonable RPM and power levels.

Does the current system have trouble picking up the oil when it's tilted to the side or to one end? If so, there are lots of ways to get around this problem other than the headaches of dry sump.

Does the current system not provide adequate cooling for the oil? Again, several other ways to solve the problem.

If you want dry sump, go for it. It would be cool to have. (in a headachy, problematic way) But I'd think seriously about what problem you're trying to solve before you decide that dry sump is the the solution.

JMHO.

Jason '87YJ
"If you didn't build it, it isn't yours . . ."

 

You said stock mustang in your post.

Sorry I wasn't helpful in your estimation....

I thought the information on:
Application, Installation, and Function would help,
$1,000 worth of block machining, (unless you have a milling machine with enough capacity to machine engine blocks)
$500 worth of fittings, check valves, lines and accessories,
$500 for a good separation tank,
$100 for the breather 'burp' tank,
$280 for two Oberg filters,
$300 for good custom oil pan,
$1,500 to $2,000 for a good dry sump 3 or 4 stage pump.
$50 to $100 each for good oil coolers.

Melling, Daniels, O'Day and Moroso all make suitable pumps.
Daniels and O'Day will not sell to individuals, but make the best pumps with built in volume and pressure relief controllable and built in.
You are looking at about $2,500 for just a 4 stage pump form Daniels or O'Day.
-------------------------------

Even though you didn't seem to appreciate the information, and dismissed it as not useful...
I'm going to throw you a bone anyway...

But this is mostly for those that are thinking the same way, but need some guidance, and don't act like they already know everything...

Moroso makes a gadget called an 'Accusump'.
It is an oil accumulator that holds about three quarts.
When the oil pressure comes up on initial start up, the accumulator fills up, and traps air in it, behind a divider piston.
When your oil pressure drops, the oil is forced out by the air pressure.
When your oil pump grabs again, the extra three quarts of oil are forced into the accumulator again and wait for the next low pressure situation.

They are about $170, and are as easy to install as hooking up an oil line to the oil gallery.
At low RPM, when a dry sump is barely moving anything, this thing should work for you.
Low budget racers use this in conjunction with a high volume wet sump oiling system and a good, baffled oil pan.
It works great for them, and it works great for road racers with turbo cars that do high 'G' loading in corners.
It should work better than a dry sump oiling system in extremely low RPM situations....
---------------------------------

Don't take my word for it though, because I'm not helpful...
(I've only done this literally 10,000 times before...)

You havn't though this through very well.
It's good you are doing reseach here, but you really need to listen to the answer....

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

 

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif I hate to say this and date myself, but in 1962 we put a home-grown dry sump setup on a Chrysler. All we did was stack two pumps and use the lower one as a scavenge and the upper as a pressure pump. The scavenge pump gathered the oil and pushed it through a cooler and filter to the tank. The upper pump sucked out of the tank and pumped it through the engine. This was an expensive, complex system, even though it was home-grown, and did put a decimal point on our reliability until we got it worked out real good. In retrospect, we could have used an accumulator system just as TR has described because we were mainly dealing with momentary losses in oil available to the pickup tube, and even at that time there were beginning to be some "trap door" pans made for oval track racing./wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif Thinking about the climbing and the oiling requirements for the engines, the big problem is that the interval that you need an oil enhancement for could be quite long if the hill was long or difficulties kept you off camber for a long time. The RPM would not be very high, and the actual demands for large quantities of oil wouldn't be all that much, so how about a simple, belt-drive scavenger from a good, deep pan and into a sizeable tank, and then feeding from there into the stock pump?/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif As you can see, this dry sump business is not exactly an afternoon-in-the-driveway bolt-on. TR is exactly right about the machine work; this isn't for the faint-of-heart, it's a VERY big deal./wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Tracs modified While-U-Wait by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Quadra-Trac Team./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

 

Thanks TR,
Any one who knows me knows that I build very little into my Jeep for the sake of coolness or looks, it is strictly for performance, and I rarley do anything half cocked, unless its an emergency. I am just doing the legwork on my engine swap and trying to address the often present low oil pressure, overheating problems, associated with V8 swaps, When put into desert climate, high angle, rock trails, that I tend to like to run on.
My original post was that it was going into a 95 Mustang 5.0(which in turn is going into my 89 YJ). I just assumed it would be figured it was going in a Jeep. Again I appologize for the miscommunication.
So know if I couldnt be any sorrier for asking a question. I would like to say thanks particularly for the 2nd post, it was the sort of info I was looking for. Especialy the accumulator info, as the cost of the Dry sump seems to be pushing the $2500 limit I had allocated for it.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

It's a very large process to do this correctly.
If you just slap one on with the oil filter head adaptor that some places use, you are asking for trouble, and you wasted your money.
If you are going to spend up to $3,500 for an oiling system, you really should maximize it's potential.

We usually take up to 35 lbs. off the block, and wind up drilling into, and threading 6 places minimum.
Some of the more complicated installs have up to 20 tapped passages.

You will need scavenging in your lifter valley, in the valve covers, in the oil pan.
If the engine is going to be operated at more than a 60 degree angle, you will need to scavenge from the sides of the block to keep oil from collecting in the bottom of the cylinders and in the hollow end of the pistons...

You will need a custom made oil pan with crank scrapers and aggressive baffling.
You will need screens and collectors in the lifter valley.
You will need to use Oberg type (screen type) oil filters as spin on filters never last. The first time the pressure valve sticks, the filter explodes.
You will need oil coolers.

You will have to install a oil spray bar over your cam shaft.
Your cam lobe to lifter oiling is solely relying on drip from the upper galleries.
So when you turn the engine on it's side for any real duration of time, the cam lobes don't get any oil.
You will have to install a spray bar there, and supply it from the dry sump pumps.

When you have all that suction in the engine, you are going to create a lot of vacuum.
You will have to install several vents so you don't suck all the gaskets out of the engine.
I've seen valve covers sucked down around the rocker arms, and valley pans sucked right down into the lifter gallery if there isn't enough venting.
I even saw an aluminum intake manifold get the bottom cracked out of it from vacuum.

With all that extra air getting sucked in with the oil, the separation tank has one hell of a job on it's hands. It has to separate the air bubbles and oil, and 'burp' off the air, and pool the useable oil for reuse in the engine.
If that separation tank doesn't do it's job, your engine is doomed to a swift and violent death.
Don't pinch pennies when you buy the separation tank...

The separation tank will have to be mounted so it can yaw in two directions to about 45 degrees. That should cover you up to about 90 degrees of angle on the engine.
Separation tanks are simple when you look at them, but don't try to duplicate one on your own until you do a BUNCH of research!!
There are very subtle things done to them, and I scrapped a lot of engines until I got to know the rules.
There are two schools of thought to separation tanks, the 'Mist' theory, and the 'Spin' theory. I subscribe to the 'Spin' theory.
Get a tank that holds at least a gallon of aerated oil.

When you start buying your stuff, you are going to be confronted with two kinds of fittings, and it doesn't matter what kind you use, just stay with what ever kind you pick out, and make sure not to mix them up.
The two kinds are JIC and SAE. Both will work equally well for this application, but they won't mix.

Make sure you tie down all steel braided lines with rubber lined clamps.
A steel braided line will saw right through anything it gets up against, to include each other and the roll cage and frame.
In just a few races I've seen steel braided lines saw notches into roll cages and frames.
The stuff is viscous.
Dry sump oiling sisters are a rats nest of steel braided lines.


"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

 

Thanks, Arron
It is definitely a lot more work, than I have been lead to to believe untill now.
If done PROPPERLY, with no skimping on parts or design(which may actually be the hardest obstacle), is the system capable of delivering added bennefits in reliability or longevity of the motor?
What type of maintenance and attention is required to keep a well designed system in top working order?
How many quarts can the resorvoir go up to, and how remote can they be and still be affective?
With my application in mind could a well designed oil pan, oil cooling system, and accumulator, reap the same benefits?
The complexity of the design alone seems to be a very big hurdle, as I know of no one out here that I would trust with the type of work neccessary to engineer this set up.
I really do appreciate the help
Thanks

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif I wuz thinking about this on my way to town today and it occurred to me that for rock crawling what you may need is a sump-within-a-sump, and the inner sump is kept full by a scavenge pump when the pan is tilted and when it isn't, the trap doors allow flow to enter normally. In other words, you have a big tank and a pump (electric) that pumps oil in a circle to keep the little sump flooded. Drains collect to the big tank by gravity./wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Tracs modified While-U-Wait by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Quadra-Trac Team./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

 

*How many quarts can the reservoir go up to, and how remote can they be and still be affective?*

I've heard of separator tanks up to 36 quarts, but most of them are around 3 or 4.
The ones on our dyno hold around 40 quarts.
I'd stay under the 12 quart total system limit, unless you just won the lottery.
You are going to have another 3 to 4 quarts in the lines, filters and oil passages, so 3 or 4 quart tanks aren't all that out of the ball park.
I'd try a 6 or 8 quart tank if I were doing what you are. Get the total up around 12.

Line length is only limited by how much volume the pumps can push.
I don't think you could get the separator tank too far away in a jeep.

You do have to pay attention to drain back or siphoning, and use check valves to prevent it.
I've seen guys that don't pull the dip stick each and every time the start the engine with a dry sump, just to find out the thing drained 15 or 20 quarts right back into the engine, and it's about ready to come out of the valve covers!!
Hit the key and the starter/ flywheel or rods/ pistons let go because the pistons can't move the oil around fast enough.
---------------------------------

*If done PROPERLY, with no skimping on parts or design, is the system capable of delivering added benefits in reliability or longevity of the motor?*

There is no 'Added Benefit' on the little Ford engine.
You add this system because the stock system isn't doing the job, not because you think it might fail in the future.
No benefit, you are just trying to keep it alive. Simple survival.
These things are horsepower hogs, much more hungry than the stock oil pump.
NASCAR for example, uses them because they need oil supplied to specific places in the engine, and because the stock oil pump wont live at the RPM all day.
But at least in most NASCAR races you know which way the oil is going to try to go, and you can add baffling to keep it where it's supposed to go...

Road racers use them because they turn so much 'G' force the oil climbs the oil pan walls, and uncovers the sump.
Then they turn the next corner the other way, and the same thing happens on the other side of the oil pan...

With a rock climber you may get off camber enough to uncover the oil sump pickup tube....
Just possibly....
I don't think hill climbers ever will, because all you have to do is relocate the sump to the back of the pan.
Up is up...

---------------------------------

*What type of maintenance and attention is required to keep a well designed system in top working order?*

Maintenance (after initial set up and break in) is pretty much a non stop check on the fittings, and there are a bunch of them!!
Leaking fittings and steel braided line trying to saw every thing it touches in two is pretty much it except for rebuilds....
You will have to rebuild the pumps about every year, and expect to replace the belt a couple times a year, and the pulleys every year.
It's not like an alternator belt, most are driven by a square toothed Gilmer belt, and they are not cheap. Neither are the rebuild kits, or the pulleys that get eaten away by the grit and the abrasive belt.
---------------------------------

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, BUT....

If I intended to take a vehicle past 30 degrees off vertical center, I'd use a Inline Engine to power it. Makes life simpler, and keeps the oil in the pan where it belongs.
A 'V' engine usually has the cylinders at about 45 degrees off perpendicular to start with, and if you tilt the engine over even more, the cylinders can become the low spot in the engine, instead of the oil pan, and cause real problems with broken rings, severely off weight balance, and a ton of other problems.

An inline engine like the Ford 300 CID I-6, or the Chevy 250 CID I-6 are torque makers, and the cylinders are perpendicular. You would have to turn the engine more than 90 degrees to cause oil to pool in the cylinders.
You will start to run into problems with the slant 6 if you tilt severely on the low side.

I would also buy an Inclinometer with a magnetic base, and stick it to my dash.
That way I could see what angles I'm really getting into.
Most people think they are a lot more tipped over than they really are, but for $20, you can have proof!!
(Inclinometer: A gadget that has a circular head that tells angles or inclines. Sears has them for less than $20. Also good for telling drive line angles.)
With a V-8, the cylinders are already at 45 degrees, so if you go over more than 45 degrees, your cylinders are the low spot in the system, with no way to scavenge them.
Oil builds up, throws the weight of the pistons out badly, over powering the rings, fouling plugs and choking valves.... You get the idea...
Not to mention the oil is lost in the cylinders, and not even a dry sump can recover it in the cylinders.

We found that out racing midgets.

Moral of the story, APPLICATION!!
---------------------------------

There are a few of the, "Hang the pump on the side of the engine, suck out of the oil pan, and pump it in through the oil filter" Kits out there, but none of them work any better than a good oil pump and a good baffled oil pan.

For your application, if you are going to use the V-8,
1. I'd try the swinging sump, so it can move with the oil, and keep pressure longer.
2. I'd try a good baffled, large volume oil pan with a really good cooler.
3. I'd try an Accusump. Lots of circle track guys and others have great luck with them, and they have been around for at least 25 years. Very reasonably priced, and easy to install.
They are pretty much maintenance free, and they are automatic.
Plus, if you take time and turn the handle or install a solenoid, they pre-oil before every start up!!

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

 

Thanks for the input TR, youve probably saved me a small pile of cash and a lot of headaches. Ill stay with 5.0 and start building towards your recomendations.
Jason YJ, thank you also, you were heading me in the right direction also. I just wanted to know the nuts and bolts of the whole thing so that I could see what I was getting into.
I've probably have saved enough money to buy a beer or two if we ever get together on a trail.
Thanks again.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"

 

Just gotta say, fascinating info on a subject I knew very little about, never considered, but sure as heck nice to know!

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
http://www.off-road.com/land