Gore is extremely left-winged on the environmental issue & would like to see the internal-combustion engine eliminated (seriously). The Supreme Court would have to make changes on the abortion issue. The only way either can make significant changes on that would be via the appointment of extremely right or left-wing judges on the Supreme Court. BTW, only Alan Keyes was running on a strong "Pro-Life" platform.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

Here's a scary one, I was watching either CNN or CNBC last nite, can't remember which one, anyway there was a poll done by a
professional polling company after super Tuesday. Gore is ahead very slightly in every which way, although not statistically
significant, but he was WAY ahead when it came to the experience to do the job. Bottom line is McCain better not go independent
or Reform, because if he does it GUARANTEES a Gore win. If Gore wins you might as well line up a buyer for your 4by, ATV or
whatever, because there will be no where to ride it.

Brad
Get active or get locked out, the choice is yours.

 

I've heard on the news this morning that McCain and Bradley are rumored to be teaming up to go against Gore and Bush. Everyone better vote for Bush, so at least we'll have a real republican and less of a chance of having Tree Hugger oops I mean AlGore in office. Tell everyone you know to vote for Republican, more specificially, Bush. We need this win. If Gore wins, you might as well remove the transfer case from your vehicle, and the gears and axles from your front end, because those will be illegal to have, and you might as well put an exercise bike in the truck to power it, because it's kind of hard to go anywhere without an engine... Bush will probably also help with the gas prices. With Gore we will see gas prices go even higher due to the fact that he doesn't like internal combustion engines. There are so many more reasons not to vote for Gore, and to vote for Republican (and the strongest republican candidate seems to be Bush) there's no reason to vote Gore, unless you're a pro-antiresponsibility, protreehugger, proecoterrorist, and anti freedom of choice, speech, religion, anti selfdefence (guns will be further banned and such) and much other bad stuff will keep happening...

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's

 

35 reasons NOT to vote for Algore

This was up a while back, but it bears repeating.
http://www.anxietycenter.com/gore35.htm

Brad
Get active or get locked out, the choice is yours.

 

Re: 35 reasons NOT to vote for Algore

Actually, I believe Bradley has said he'll support Gore. But, you'd better believe McCain running under another party would be death for "our side", much in the same way Ross hosed up the last election.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

Re: 35 reasons NOT to vote for Algore

I'll probably get flayed alive for saying this on this BBS...but I just can't feel safe voting for Bush. The guy is a MORON, he has no spine, no leadership qualities and couldn't find his ass with both hands and a copy of Grey's Anatomy. Is that who we want in charge of our country? I'm not saying I'm a big fan of Gore either...he seems to be slicker than Clinton but worse becuase he's learned from willy's mistakes. I don't know, I hate both of them. BTW I'm an avid Jeep owner, so don't think I'm some greenie freak...just undecided and disheartened by this election. To quote my father "I wouldn't waste brake dust on either of them if I saw them crossing the road"

MudFlap 87 YJ POS!!

 

Re: 35 reasons NOT to vote for Algore

jeeper131, I have to agree with you. I'm not fond of Bush, and Gore is a flaming idiot. BTW, there is a new book out about the making of algore, turns out he was raised from a pup to be a politician, after all its the family business. His schooling, everything, had one thing in mind, to make him a politician. And the real kicker is now he really doesn't even like it, he was just made that way! The guy is really a ruthless *****.

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
Get involved or lose it all, the choice is yours!

 

Re: 35 reasons NOT to vote for Algore

How about we solve this problem logically... Let's all vote for CJDave for President!!! I'll take a job in the cabinet.. /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif /wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif

But seriously, Gore is absolutely 110% beyond a shadow of a doubt the absolute last person we would ever want in public office. Instead of wasting your vote on someone other than Bush, you might as well bite the bullet and pick him, not because you like him, but because he is the absolute most likely candidate for beating Gore in the election. I don't care much for Bush either, but I know that he is miles ahead of Gore because Gore is a wacko environmentalist who among other things wishes to abolish the internal combustion engine, and Jeeps, and other 4x4's, and anyone who thinks for themselves, and guns, and the Constitution, and basically any hint of any personal freedoms... If you're an avid Jeep owner, pick Bush just because if he gets elected, Gore doesn't, and if Gore gets elected, you can kiss your Jeep goodbye.. /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif /wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's

 

Re: 35 reasons NOT to vote for Algore

You are absolutely right Tim, the only choice is the lesser of the 2 evils, Bush.

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
Get involved or lose it all, the choice is yours!

 

Re: 35 reasons NOT to vote for Algore

If Bush bothers you, don't think of it as voting "for Bush", but rather "against Gore". And we can use all the "against Gore" votes we can get.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing

 

Re: 35 reasons NOT to vote for Algore

Yeah, I'm not THRILLED with Bush either but anybody is preferable to Gore./wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif

 

OK guys,
here it is, Bush is actually making noises about stopping all these executive orders on the land grab stuff Clinton is doing NOW!!!

There is no point in thinking about what will happen when Gore gets in. Look at the reality of what has happened this last 4 months!

All of you should be marching on Washington over the Executive order Roadless area initiative that Clinton has forced the US Forest Service and BLM to initiate. They bypassed congress completely

We need someone in office that will undo what has been done, not prevent what will be done.

Just because you haven't seen it yet doesn't mean it hasn't already happened.
They really haven't dumped on those of you back east yet, they will though as soon as it is safe to do so. Meaning elections are over. Keep in mind this is a nationwide, not a backyard issue.

Complain and do it loudly to Bush and to Congress ask Bush to use this stuff in his platform. He hasn't been bad for Texas and he is what we have to work with.

I'll close with a quote from Marine I saw on the Srort Wheel Base page.
This quote applies to civilians too It is FREEDOM we are loosing here. Not just recreation areas. Keep in mind in all these closed areas are people with livlihoods and homes that have lost them, not ( might loose them if Gore is elected.)

For those who fight for it, peace has a flavor the protected will never know

 

We're brainwashing ourselves folks. Let's look at the political process for a second and see what we can learn. First of all, for the record, I'm a registered Republican and WILL be voting for Mr. Bush. That being said. Let's examine whether or not our government could ever ban the use of internal combustion engines during our lifetime. The simplest answer is NO WAY. Freak though he is, Mr. Gore is not now nor will he ever be in a position to ban the engine. First of all, he'll never be in a position to pass a law completely on his own without Congressional approval. There will never be Congressional approval for an initiative to ban the automobile as we know it. The Big 3 Auto Makers and the Japanese guys are all HUGE contributors to PAC's that lobby for time with Congressman and dump 10's of millions of dollars into the pocketbooks of our Senators. There's no way they'd ever let that happen, they'd throw every dollar they had into that effort. And they'd have nothing to lose. If the legislation did pass, the auto makers would see a debilitated bottom line if not a non existant one. There's no enviromental group with enough money to combat the auto PACs. Secondly, and maybe most importantly, US and overseas Oil companies are among the richest industries in the world. For the same reason as car makers would lobby and protest, so would the oil industry.

Between the two, there is no possible way for that type of legislation to get passed. Proposed, maybe, passed, no way!

Furthermore, think of the consequences of banning internal combustion engines without a viable alternative (of which there seems to be no front runner). It would mean the depletion of not only your car, but emergency power generators, almost every military vehicle (with the exception of nuclear powered naval vessels) known to man. While you are at it, you might as well tie in any product that depletes Ozone, which is the real issue here, which would include the manufacturing of most plastic goods we use today.

I'm not voting for Gore, but I think we should all be realistic and not hysterical in our views. His ideas are just that, ideas. They'll never come to fruition unless some amazing form of clean power is found that's cheaper than what we have today, safer than what we have today and would easily retrofit personal autos and small enough to fit into new autos. It's all just very very unlikely.

Carl, Tampa, FL, 74 CJ-5
If a Jeep can't take you there, Think twice about going..

 

Carl

"Freak though he is, Mr. Gore is not now nor will he ever be in a position to ban the engine"

Problem is, he will TRY. There is the routine of sayng that you want a certain activity, and don't want to ban it, but make it so F-ing hard to continue doing that it is a defacto ban.

Look at the recent stuff. RJR and S&W caving in. GM is next

 

Re:bushorgore

The greatest threat to the ORV community is not Algore, but the large number of ORV users who don't stay on the trails. Instead of warning folks about voting against gore, you should be trying to get them to comply with Tread Lightly rules.

 

Re:bushorgore

Al Gore wants to ban the internal combustion engine by 2018. That doesn't consititute a threat? Goud, are you going start riding a bike on that 40 mile one way commute of yours? You should be with us Goud.

 

no more gas engines?

I really am with you all--don't think I get a kick out of disagreeing with folks...I'm glad Tahoe ORV area is working out. I just don't see ORV activity being compatible with long-term survival of the desert as we know it.

If OHV's (overhead valve engines) are banned (I can't see this happening) I'll have to get an electric car...or hang glider or something--when I think of all the pollution caused by my car just getting my ass to work--it really makes me feel like a hypocrite. I try to drive as little as possible.

 

Re: no more gas engines?

What other alternative do we have? Cities don't grow up anymore, they grow out. If you live in a suburb and work in a city, you must have a car. Or a car pool, or bus, whatever. Only city I know of with electric transportation out to suburbs is Boston. We don't really have much of a choice anymore. I did recently see someone with a new Toyota electric/gas hybrid. The guy said he enjoyed the vehicle's maintenance costs (almost no moving parts, significantly less than a motor), but that if he had to drive any distance he was out of luck. The batteries would only take him 120 miles without a recharge and the only place to recharge is home! So that's 60 miles round trip. People here in Tampa drive farther than that to get to work!

I think what Al Gore is concerned about is pollution. So am I. I'd be happy to drive ANYTHING cleaner than my Jeep. IF I could get the power and longevity out of it, I'd swap in something else. But that alternative does not exist yet. Maybe by 2018 we'll be in a position to swap in some sort of mini conductive system that'll give us more power, better reliability and less pollution. I'm all for that.

What I'm not for is saying "Get rid of the motor" when there's nothing else out there to use. It's not fair to single ORV out. We get a double whami here. Not only do we drive stinky, polluting internal combustors but we drive them off road and harm the environment. I think Goud is right to an extent. We could lower our profile by ensuring that fellow Jeepers stay on designated trails, don't leave trash behind, etc. etc. We could police ourselves and solve some of our problems. It's either that or let the government police us, and I don't think any of us want that. Government's form of policing is "Close it down, we don't have the resources."

Carl, Tampa, FL, 74 CJ-5
If a Jeep can't take you there, Think twice about going..

 

Re: no more gas engines?

Pollution... Did you know that a volcano ejects more harmful materials like sulphur dioxide and carbon dioxide (alleged cause of the "Green House" effect) than all of our vehicles put together. There's a volcano that's becoming active somewhere around the Pacific Rim right now... Electric vehicles don't reduce pollution. They relocate it, so instead of the pollution being emitted out individual exhaust pipes of individual vehicles, a large volume gets emitted from a smokestack at a powerplant somewhere.

I think what Algore is concerned about is wacko environmentalism and ultimately control of way more than any one person should have over everyone else. That is what the environmental movement is about. Grabbing more and more rights, in small yet important steps, they act like they compromise by asking for the moon but "compromising" for a few thousand acres, then a week or so later, they ask for that outrageous goal again, and "accept" a little bit more. Eventually they will achieve their ultimate goal, but the gradual way they do it makes a lot of people think of as being ok...

How do you propose to keep everyone on designated trails and get them to pick up after themselves? Most of us do, but there are still those out there that refuse to do that. We could try some form of self policing, but it wouldn't do any good because we would have no legal authority to do any kind of arrest or anything to them. If we turned them over to authorities, the authorities would probably just want to close the area down. I guess all we can do is clean up after the idiots out there. And did you know that I have seen far more garbage left on walking/hiking trails than I have seen in off road areas or trails... Yup, even without a vehicle there are idiots that pollute, hard to believe isn't it? /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's

 

Re: no more gas engines?

Tim, you are right about the pollution being emitted from a smokestack rather than a car, but what's the solution? Simple physics would tell you that one way or another the matter will be used, recycled and returned to earth. Whether it's pollution or otherwise is beside the point as far as I'm concerned. Either way, there's no real solution to our problem, if there even is a problem, which I'm not convinced there is. As you said, some how, some way, somewhere down the line pollution is caused. Front end or back end, it's all the same. Cows fart, there's your pollution, termites produce amazing amouts of methane contaminants in their mounds in the desert, that's pollution. SO let's kill the cows and termites and get on with it! Once we do though, we'll find out that cows and termites were vital to ecological well being and the environmental guys will blame it on someone else. Either that or we'll find out that the methane they emit was actually good for forming high altitude rain clouds or some nonsense. It always happens like that. We think one thing and then 10 years down the road we figure out that we didn't know enough about it and made the wrong choice.

As for self policing, there must be a way, other than closing down the areas, wouldn't you agree? We give people freedom and they do as they please, it's part of human nature and American society. We don't close streets down because people throw their burger wrappers out the window. We put up signs that say "$500 fine for littering". Why not do the same for recreational areas? Not enough rangers? Please, that's a cop out (excuse the pun). I've never seen a cop cite someone for littering my highways. We pay for someone to come once a year and pick that crap up. Or the DUI convicts get to go out there and bust their asses all day. Why can't something like that apply here?

What about obtaining a license? LIke a fishing license, but an "off road vehicle license". It'd cost you $45 a year and would go into a fund to help maintain existing trails and clean them up, and to maintain the remaining wildlife areas to an acceptable standard. That way we'd have some income to cover expenses and those who aren't interested in the preservation of the sport probably won't pay the money. If they were caught off roading without a license, they would be fined on the spot regardless of their intentions.

What's the alternative? Lie down and take it? I don't think so.

As for the environmentalist whackos who ask for things and take a little less. Whatcha gonna do about that? NOTHING. No one is. No one cares apparently. At least not enough to rally some support. Those guys have got their act together. They lobby, petition, take congressmen to lunch, etc. etc. What do we do? Phone calls? Email? Faxes? Please, its so sad. We bitch and moan, but who's lobbying congress on OUR behalf? NO ONE. We don't have a PAC large enough to battle these people. They are professionals who believe in what they are fighting for. They take advantage of the system to their own benefit. And it's something we don't do because we are already looked on as outsiders. Ruffians, people who stomp the land. There's no way we could be professionals like them, we're all blue collar and have no brains, right?

We can either
1) Find a way to organize ourselves full time and use the system to our advantage;
2) Lay down and take what's coming;
3) Change government. (No one wants to be radical, though)
4) Find someone else who stands to lose and recruit them. IE: Car makers, aftermarket 4x4 companies, ATV companies, dirt bike companies, sponsors, etc. These guys all have something to lose, we should band together.

Problem is, none of us can afford to quit our jobs and take this role on. I sure can't. Greenpeace and all those guys have so much revenue coming in from donations and other sources that they employ people full time whose sole purpose is to write policy and present it to their favorite congressman. They are getting paid to do this! I'd take the job in a heartbeat if there were one. But I haven't found it yet.

Personally, I contribute to a state PAC that lobbies on my industries behalf. Our PAC is one of the largest in the State and I have seen it make huge impacts on proposed and existing laws. To the extent that when we speak, the legislators listen, and listen closely. The guy who started the PAC was a retired real estate attorney who made millions prospecting land. He had the time, money and legal know how to get the job done. We off roaders need someone like that to jump start us!

Carl, Tampa, FL, 74 CJ-5
If a Jeep can't take you there, Think twice about going..

 

Re: no more gas engines?

I don't have time to reply to this right now, but I didn't want anyone to think I'm ignoring it. I'll probably have a complete reply to this sometime tomorrow... If I try to do it now, I'll wake up with imprints of the keyboard plastered into my head... /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's

 

Re: Bush/Gore

Since this is a Bush/Gore thread, read the article I just put up on the Land Use Section about Bush's stance on the environment, the guy that wrote it brings up some excellent points.

Brad
ORC Land Use Section Editor
Get involved or lose it all, the choice is yours!

 

Re:bushorgore

Have you ever looked around this site? Have you ever been on a trailride? Have you ever sat around and chatted with a bunch of 4-wheelers?
The topic of staying on the trail is brought up more than once every time. Everywhere you go with a bunch of responsible 4-wheelers you hear this. So dont assume things.
And this is coming from a "naive" 17 year old! /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif

SRN
'86 Samurai "Simple Sami MK2"
Zukinet

 

Re:bushorgore

You can use all the lame excuses you want to blame motorized for impacts, but the fact remains ALL activities have impact. The question is when does an impact become no longer acceptable? Rutted trail? Close them. Mud holes? Block them. But are those impacts significant enough to warrant the lose of the trail? Ever been to a wilderness area? Ever seen the amount of trash, cigarette butts, and nails in the trees from environmentally responsible hikers? I hike, I bike, I jeep and I trail ride a dirt bike, I have seen it all. The environmental community has plenty of shame of it's own to face up to, when are we going to point a few fingers in their direction? Regarding their sources of money, ever seen the court system in action? Why do you think the Sierra Club started their legal defense fund many years ago? If you are a target industry of these people then you pay some dues or you see them in court sooner or later. There will come a time when the socialist agenda that these watermellons are incrementally instuting will be fully in place to do severe and irrepairable damage to everyone's freedom, then what? Revolt? With what guns? We motorized recreationists need to relize that we are just a small part of the agenda, and that we will be sacraficed for the greater good only to be a leading indicator of were this agenda is really going.Concerned yet? Then get friends and neighbors alike to get involved and make the land management system we have in place function for all of us equally,or we can all be selectively be removed from the landscape one group at a time. Think about it.

 

Re: no more gas engines?

Here's that big, all inclusive reply I promised everyone... /wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

In reply to:

Tim, you are right about the pollution being emitted from a smokestack rather than a car, but what's the solution? Simple physics would tell you that one way or another the matter will be used, recycled and returned to earth. Whether it's pollution or otherwise is beside the point as far as I'm concerned. Either way, there's no real solution to our problem, if there even is a problem, which I'm not convinced there is. As you said, some how, some way, somewhere down the line pollution is caused. Front end or back end, it's all the same.

The solution is: "There is no solution, as long as we wish to have our 'technologically advanced' lives." Actually, even if we were all living in caves, we would still be using resources to be able to do work. In the cave people example, plants receive energy from the sun, animals receive energy from eating plants, and we receive energy from eating animals and plants. So in a way, we are still using resources even back then. We are also creating wastes. No matter how humans (or other animals for that matter) live, they still use energy and create wastes. There is nothing we can do about it, except maybe all kill ourselves, however that would accomplish absolutely nothing other than leaving all of the other animals alone on this planet to use energy from the sun without us... (This is NOT intended to sound hostile in any way, and I'm certainly not advocating that anyone off themselves.)

In reply to:

As for self policing, there must be a way, other than closing down the areas, wouldn't you agree? We give people freedom and they do as they please, it's part of human nature and American society. We don't close streets down because people throw their burger wrappers out the window. We put up signs that say "$500 fine for littering". Why not do the same for recreational areas? Not enough rangers? Please, that's a cop out (excuse the pun). I've never seen a cop cite someone for littering my highways. We pay for someone to come once a year and pick that crap up. Or the DUI convicts get to go out there and bust their asses all day. Why can't something like that apply here?

I am sure there is a way to self police ourselves rather than the alternative which is for the Government to simply close the area. With this current Administration run by environmentalist wackos, they will take no action but close the area. They don't want to deal with the problem of people messing up the area, and the bad thing about the current Administration (and the next one if Algore gets elected, God forbid) is that even those of us (the majority of us) who don't tear up the area and leave our trash and out there are considered to be destroying the area, by the environmental wackos who are in this Administration...

In reply to:

What about obtaining a license? LIke a fishing license, but an "off road vehicle license". It'd cost you $45 a year and would go into a fund to help maintain existing trails and clean them up, and to maintain the remaining wildlife areas to an acceptable standard. That way we'd have some income to cover expenses and those who aren't interested in the preservation of the sport probably won't pay the money. If they were caught off roading without a license, they would be fined on the spot regardless of their intentions.

To use the off road areas (mainly the Silver Lake Sand Dunes here in Michigan) that I like to use, I have to buy a yearly permit at $15-$20, and must have a valid State Park sticker, $4/day or $16(I think) for a yearly pass. I pay this, but all it seems to do is buy the rangers new trucks every so often, I never see many (Government employed) people out there cleaning off the dunes of the junk that some idiots throw down there. The biggest problem with the license idea of yours is the way the Government handles money. It appropriates it to where ever and what ever it wants (how about the taxes that they put on ammo and fishing equipment and stuff like that that's supposed to go back into programs for hunters and anglers that constantly get misappropriated?) The Government can't be trusted to do something like this right, and since it's public land, unless the Government does do something, then if we tried to, we'd be breaking the law.

That's about all of Carl's post I can see I wanted to reply to... Now for some of the others after that post...

SRN said:

In reply to:

Have you ever looked around this site? Have you ever been on a trailride? Have you ever sat around and chatted with a bunch of 4-wheelers?
The topic of staying on the trail is brought up more than once every time. Everywhere you go with a bunch of responsible 4-wheelers you hear this. So dont assume things.
And this is coming from a "naive" 17 year old!

I agree with this totally, the vast majority of serious 4 wheelers do stay on the trails, and even talk to those who aren't staying on the trails to give them a piece of our mind, and to explain that if they keep doing that, they are helping to get the sport of off roading to be illegal. But then again, I'm just a 20 year old person who wants to see some radical changes in the way our Government is conducting itself with our (yes, yours and my) public land among other things, such as "Gun Control", or as I prefer to call them, "The Anti-Freedom Anti-Self-Defense crowd", and other things of this nature.

gsforestry said:

In reply to:

You can use all the lame excuses you want to blame motorized for impacts, but the fact remains ALL activities have impact. The question is when does an impact become no longer acceptable? Rutted trail? Close them. Mud holes? Block them. But are those impacts significant enough to warrant the lose of the trail? Ever been to a wilderness area? Ever seen the amount of trash, cigarette butts, and nails in the trees from environmentally responsible hikers?

I agree with this 120%... I have been on many many hiking trails and bike trails that are more covered with people's garbage than a lot of the off road trails I've seen. Just because of a couple of tire ruts or mud holes that we like to operate some machines on, which are basically trails that can actually hide themselves in a few years of disuse, is no reason to call an area "ruined, dessimated, destroyed, harmed, or any of the other crap that the environmentalists try to pull over the eyes of the public".

That is how they change, it's generally a gradual, creeping change that won't slow down until they acheive their ultimate goal. For example the ultimate goal of the "Anti Freedom, Anti Self Defense group" is to eliminate all privately owned fire arms. They keep getting more and more restrictive with their new laws, until finally it is illegal to keep and bear arms. They will keep whittling away our right to use public land, because apparently off roaders aren't members of the public. Eventually we will have no rights left, if we permit them to continue.

Just how I see the world...

Tim
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif '79 Suburban 4x4 454, 35x12.5s
/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif '85 S15 4x4 2.8l, 235/75's