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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm currently trying to find the perfect 5, 6, or 7 speed manual tranny with a 5,6 or7:1 first gear for my Jeep. Right now I know a NV4500 will work with adapters, but I know of a couple of wrecking yard that have rebuilt truck (ie. 1ton and up) trannys for the smae cost as a rebuilt NV4500 and was wandering if anyone know what could be adapted to a small block chevy. Also if anyone knows where i could find more info it would help. I know someone on this board was talking about a Clark. What about Fuller, ZF, NV, NP, Mack, and Spicer trannys. Any info would help. Thanks.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Many of the truck trannies, including the Clark, ZF, and Mack, are as you said "big truck trannies". I doubt that many companies make adaptors for anything less than "big trucks" (2 1/2 tons). Except for the clark. I do know that you can buy one which mates to a 258 or 350, I think. Look in the ads in almost any fourwheeler month. As for the rest of the trannies, I doubt they will fit. They are just too big and too heavy. Look into the clark thing. Sounds like a great alternative to the infamous NV4500. Bragging rights.
Russ

 

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/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif I had ONE truck (a '70 GMC Gasser Two-ton)with the small-input five speed transmission. It came with a four speed, and I had to look EVERYWHERE to find that five with the teeny input shaft. THAT BOX would have fit yer Jeep same as a 465 tranny. One problem.....it was a Non-Synchromesh tranny, so if you are used to slopping your way through the gears, well....it isn't fer you/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifheh heh...when I got the tranny installed one of my workers hopped in it and drove down the road and back. He came back all distraught: "Boss!" he exclaimed, ""This transmission won't hardly shift....it grinds and grinds before it goes in! What's wrong with it Boss? Is it no good??" I told him to grab right seat and away we went. I used the clutch to start off and went through all five no clutch. It shifted perfect, but it was a MAN's transmission, not fer high skool kids/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Do you know who made the tranny for those GM engines? Also who was it on this board that was putting a clark tranny in there Jeep. Does anyone know of a web site that would give me more info about these trannies. Thanks.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
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/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif In my search for that small-input five-speed I called everybody out here on the Jest Coast. Lehr Bros....Frank Steuber...all of them. Altogether they had over 3000 boxes in stock, and did not have that one. Then one Saturday I was over at my yard doing something to one of the rigs and in drove a Junk Man. I'm negotiating with him about the brass and copper, and I'm leaning on his pickup and what do I see in the back but a small-input five. There was also a BIG input(std) five there that was broken. I asked him what they were and he lamented:"OH Man.....I needed a tranny for my big junk hauler and I found this one but it won't fit!" I could hardly believe it. Fifteen minutes later he had the copper and brass....I had a small-input five-speed tranny for my service truck! Wierd, huh?/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif Look for two-ton chevy and jimmy trucks, they used that box in the gassers.....those that were five speeds./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Boy I have seen alot of these old [not that old ] farm trucks with 5sp's.
Allot of them have been chevys . I have thought about them myself. If you ask
those that drive them if they are an overdrive all you get is the deer in the head lights look????
As I was writeing this soomthing else came to mind. I was a a school bus sale.
I was going to move and the thought came to mind to buy one move and sale it.
WELL they where Internationals,I was told The ones with the 2sp rears had 4 sp trans and the ones with the single speed rears where 5 sp. Got to wonder 5sp clarks with od?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
JUST DON'T KNOW??Guess I should start crawing under some trucks.?????????????
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yeah I need to make some phone calls and see if they will let me examine the trannies that they have rebuilt and the ones still in the trucks. The only disadvantage that I can see about these truck trannies compared to the NV 4500 is smoothness of shifting. This could be interesting if I can find a tranny that will work.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
WALSTIB/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yep, when you learn to wiggle the stick in a non syncro tranny, it really is a pleasure to use, and those clutches are good for several hundred thousand miles 'cause they get use so little. Last Mack I had was showing about 550,000 on the clock and the engine had been opened twice for head gaskets, a couple of injectors and oil changes. The tranny and clutch had never been touched.
Problem with a non syncro in a small gas engine - small as compared to the big diesels - is that they wind and unwind more quickly making the rpm gate much smaller so your timing has to be real good to get them to shift. Those big slow turning engines leave all kinds of time for the gears to line up.

Doug '97 TJ
Creator of the CBrack
CBrack.com
 

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/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif Er...Doug....my little over-the-road moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifkeeps mumbling something like: "Up to 2000....back off 200....clutch to neutral.....clutch out and back off 200....find the gate......up to 2000...back off to..." What's up with that? He began doing that just after he read your post?????/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
FYI on the Clarks: Perfomance Gear in Mississippi has them with the 7:1 first and .80:1 O/D. They are $2350 with any adapters you need to make them work. I am looking at one to go behind my 4 banger, and in front of my NP231. They will either put the 21 spline output on the rear or give me the 23 spline input for the t-case (like that isn't an obvious answer) for that price.

_____________________
John
95.5 YJ with "stuff"
http://SonsofThunder4x4.com
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You talking about double clutching a big truck? Personally, I probably double clutched my big trucks 2 or 3 times a year if that much, and didn't pay any attention to the tach at all when shifting. Couldn't even tell you what the difference in rpms was between gears, and I would shift both directions without the clutch. The Mack 12 speed is basically a 5 speed gear box with a second 2 speed air operated hi/lo gear box and then a compound air operated low gear in a third box. That compound low also ran through the hi/lo box so it produced a hi lo and a lo lo. Talk about "crawl ratio". You can't use the clutch on half the shifts anyway - the hi/lo box. To shift it you move the button. Nothing happens if you are still on the throttle - the gears are still being held by the driving force. Soon as you take you foot off the throttle, it changes, just like an old 2 speed axle.
Only point I was trying to make was that when moving the stick the engine lost and gained rpms so slowly that you could almost eat a sandwich between gears waiting for the gears to line up. But with a small gas engine, you step on the gas and it revs up so fast that you only have a split second to catch a gear. Let off the gas to up shift and it unwinds so fast that you have to use the throttle to line things up. Ol' big truck, just take you foot off the throttle, ease into neutral, pop the button, look around for girls, make sure the moonguys are sober enough to stay in the seat, ease it into the next gear and step on the throttle again.
2,000 RPMs????????????? You musta tweeked it a bit. Only way I could get 2 grand was downhill with a real heavy load. Little tail wind came in handy too. Yea, I know those Comealongs and especially the Yamahaulers could get up around 2200 or 2300, but those guys wanted to get there yesterday so they could have more time to smooze with the moonguys or sit around the truck stop and ratchet jaw on the CB. Me? I liked to stay out there and do my 3 minute speed shifting.

Doug '97 TJ
Creator of the CBrack
CBrack.com
 

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/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif Yeah, my little over-the-road moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif is really out in dreamland, thinking about his 1947 Autocar Dieselcar with a 165 Cummins in it. I ALWAYS clutched into the middle to play it safe, then let back out and go over to the gate and wait. With the old straight-tooth brownies it was real easy to hang a tooth comin' out, so the guy who taught me was adamant about clutching out but not in, and it always made sense to me. When the linklage to the auxillary was real worn, you could pop out the side of a shift rail real easy if you got too sloppy. Later on, when we had some 13 speeds, the BIG PROBLEM was drivers PRE-selecting/wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif...it wore out the shifter forks. It was as if they selected...looked at ten pretty girls...then picked up their foot to shift/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif I really got on their asses about that, but who can tell a driver anything/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifYour right about gassers being real quick up and down, and that's why he would need a good tach.....where he uses the whole dial....so he can get it right. I broke a fulcrum pin in my 350 GMC 3/4 ton and drove it clutchless for two weeks, starting it in gear in a downtown intersection. It had a 465 four speed. I had no problem shifting it....the synchros were worn out too(which makes it easier actually, when shifting without the clutch.

CJDave
I never believe any statistics unless my moonguys /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif made 'em up themselves.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I would not know but I have been told there are truck drivers that could
tear up an steel anvil[sp?] with a rubber hammer/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif
Had a uncle that drove at one time then went into the shop mech.
I can still remember how mad he would get at times at the drivers.
I was a little guy but remember once a driver called to tell him that
his truck threw a rod. Rich knew this guy was clueless so ask him how did
he know that he threw a rod . Well he says I got it here in my hand and that what every one tells me it is.
Another one I remember was this retired Air Force guy they got. How he stenciled
tire pressures, fuel tanks, doors,toolboxs,. you get the picture.Just like
the air force did things . That went over well a Coop truck looking like
it belong to the air force.
He was a great mech.
A great Uncle.
I miss Him./wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif
 

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/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif One of my neighbors had about thirty trucks, all gassers. One day a driver scattered a fairly low-hours engine all over the road. "What RPM were you running this thing?" asked the boss. "I dunno." said the driver. "I just hold the pedal down till it quits gaining RPM and then I shift."/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif there are stories....and stories....and stories....like my buddy Pat who drove cattle trucks all over the western states for a VERY fly-by-nite outfit. He got this co-driver the boss hired five minutes before Pat was leaving on a four-state run, and the guys says: "I'm tired....can I sleep first?" so he went into the sleeper. Hours later in the middle of the Nevada desert nine o'clock at nite Pat wakes him up to drive. The guy crawls out and Pat goes to crawl in only to discover that the guy had number two'd the bed! Pat threw HIM....AND the sheets and blankets out onto the hiway and drove the run solo. And that was just ONE story from the continuing saga of V----- Livestock transportation/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yep, there's a few bull hauler stories out there as well as J B Hunt stories.

Couple of drivers had been running together for several miles bs'ing on the CB. One was a J B Hunt. They passed a J B rig that was turned upside down in a ditch beside the road. The JB on the road just kept driving. Other driver asked him if that wasn't one of his trucks. "Naw, wasn't ours. We don't have any with the wheels on the top."

Dave, you mentioned tearing up gear boxes with improper shifting. Agree that there is a proper way to shift, and agree that stuff can get broke if you don't do it right. Only thing I can say is that my last Mack had over a half million miles on it and the only miles that weren't put on by me were when it was driven from Oklahoma to Dallas when I bought it. Actually bought it by telephone, sight unseen. The tranny was just as smooth and slick as the day I got it and it still had the original clutch when I sold it. I've driven Fullers, and IMO, the Mack 12 is so far superior, it's not even in the same league. Operationally they differ considerably. The Fuller uses the stick for EVERY shift. Only change the range with the air once. Go through 5 gears, air shift and go through those same 5 gears again with the stick. Mack only uses the stick 5 times, hi/lo air shifting between each gear. I know you know that. Only added that info for anyone else following this that may not be familiar with big truck gear boxes.

When I mentioned "PRE-shifting" with the air button, only did so to emphasize that the actual shifting was accomplished with rpms not the air shifter itself, but when shifting from lo to hi in each gear, that shift is always pre-shifted, and actually going backward from hi to lo it is also pre-shifted ALL the time. That's the only way you can do it. The stick doesn't move, and you don't use the clutch either. Difference is those shifts are not in the main box. That may be another reason why the Mack main box gear change has so much lag. The main box gears are a lot further apart than a Fuller. The hi/lo air shift comes between each main box gear, and it isn't considered 1st lo, 1st hi, 2nd lo and 2nd hi. Mack actually calls it 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th, so the hi/lo shifts are full shifts, not half shifts. That means that when you move the stick you are actually going twice as far in the main box as the Fuller (Ranger). The air shift from hi to lo as you move the stick keeps the actual rpm change about the same as a Fuller. You can skip the air shift in the middle and eat a couple of sandwiches before the rpms line up.

Doug '97 TJ
Creator of the CBrack
CBrack.com
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I dunno, I still remember 25 yrs. ago driving a 1966 kenworth with a 318 detroit with a two stick 4x4 tranny. You knew you accomplished something when you could hook your arm thru the steering wheel and shift both boxes at the same time without grinding gears. Ahh the old days, no power steering, no a.c., no cruise control. Yeah right. I'd have ahard time giving up my 96 mack, a.c., p.s., cruise, traction control, but I do miss some of the old trucks. But I cme back to my senses pretty quick.

Bob

 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Never drove a 4x4, but understand those drivers had a bit of a swagger, stood a little taller and didn't have to talk quite as loud to get attention. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

Doug '97 TJ
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CBrack.com
 

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/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif You haven't arrived till you can make a corner, do a double-box gear change and hold a just-bought cuppa coffee/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif Is it any wonder that the insurance companies said: "Yeah! Go get it!" When the first single-stick married combination tranny came out.....I cannot for the life of me remember the name of piece of junk, but they made a crapload of them. The case was SO LONG in those boxes that it actually used to get a twist in it from constant torque, and then the bearings would fail. I was in a used truck parts yard once and a guy came in lookin' for one of those and the counterman's response was: "WHY"/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif We had a 5 X 4 in our low bed and boy, could it ever twist a driveline easy/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifif you weren't careful.

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I remember applying for the job and the boss pointing at that KW and asking me if I'd ever driven a two stick before and I answered no sir never had the opportunity and he said well I guess you'll get the hang of it by the the time you get to Pittsburgh. That's the way they did things back then and I guess it wasn't all bad.By the way CJDave the oldtimers back then said you were a real man if you didn't have to hook your arm thru the wheel and used another appendage to hold the wheel straight instead.

Bob

 
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