In the middle of swapping a 360 in for my 304. You have some really good info there.

Headers:
Headman headers that are fenderwell exit for the 304, will work on the 360, with the automatic. You pretty much have to run side pipes though. Also, there is a .04 spacer that is supposed to be between the engine and trans on the amc bolt pattern th400's. When I disassembled the driveline, the spacer was not there. The spacer is needed to mount the inspecion cover and aid in starter mount. I had no illeffects on my front pump. I am putting this spacer in when i put in the 360 though. I got mine from turner 4 wheel drive. It was like $25.00. I do not know if it is 100% esential, but why risk it. This spacer was used on the pre-74 th400's also.

As or the fan shroud... I woul replace the mechanical fan, with an electric one, and then forget about the shroud. It is cheaper, gives a good horsepower gain, and is less stressful on the waterpump, especially if in deep water crossings, inless the clutch is in good working order. I have been running a single 14inch electric fan on my 304 with no problem at all. I have a toggle switch that turns the fan off during water crossings.

Jesse


Ignorance is the first step to knowledge.

 

I recently did this, I slapped an 83' Waggie 360 into my 85' CJ7 (it had an I6 originally) I used the MORE motor mounts and the CJ's wiring harness. I use the 2 core I6 radiator and it seems to keep it cool.......I rebalanced the I6 flywheel to 360 specs and it works great.......I kept the T5 tranny but have a 727 to swap in when it blows up (so far it is holding up fine).

If ya have any questions shoot me a mail luvmud@yahoo.com......I am not a mechanic but play one on the weekends ; )

 

the 304 is an internally balanced engine, the 360, 390, and 401 are externally balanced. this is why the part numbers for I-6 and 304 pressure plates and flexplates are the same. if you build an amc v-8 and balance the engine(who doesn't?) you can get a pressure plate or flexplate for a 304/I-6 and keep the engine balanced

~~Elusive~~
it's sort of still a cj thingy....

 

Hey Elusive

not to start an argumment, but where did you get that info?
that contradicts everything ive ever heard,read, seen, or used?
please explain!


OzarkJeep
77 CJ5, in a bunch of pieces right now

 

My 304 is externally balanced.

 

Jeeper2,

If you remember, probably a year ago or so you sent me a bunch of info on this swap...well, about March 24 I started this adventure and just got done with it about 2 days ago. I spent a week on the engine then Saturday preping the Jeep and pulling the old engine out. I could have gotten the new one in same day, but the parts place gave me the wrong clutch!! I was not happy...anyway, got the motor in on Sunday and spent about a week fine tuning it. You have all the right parts info...but here are a couple of hints to help prevent you from cussing too much. 1)When you disconnect the old motor, do it at the tranny and not the bellhousing...only 4 bolts 2)when setting in the 360, loosen the left frame rail mount to the end of the threads, set the motor in on that left frame mount and then take the right one and work it onto the frame, put the bolts in, leave them loose work the eng mount onto the frame mount put the nut on it and then tighten the frame rail mounts on both sides. It took us almost 5 hrs to get this motor in right. I was also fortunate to have this advice before I started.3) put one tire up off the ground a 1/4 inch or so so that when it come time to line up the splines with the clutch you can do it easily by turning the tire. 4) take the front end of the Jeep off...6 screw and you can disconnect the wires at the wire bundle plug on the firewall. Cant think of anything else at the moment. Please ask if you have questions as it is still fresh in my mind. BTW I had a I6, T150, Model20 set up and all is the same but now with a 360...WHAT a difference a little torque makes...I did get the whole operation on digital camera BTW...I took plenty of pictures to be sure I had something to look back at in case I forgot to mark something, or just needed a reference...

/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
JK
O|||O
78CJ5 360

 

i just bought a flexplate for my 304 and it is neutral balanced, i looked the part numbers up for 304, 258, and 360.
the 304 and 258 are both the same.. both neutral balanced, but the 360 has a weight welded on it and holes drilled in the other side. i looked at my 304 pressure plate and compared it to my 258 pressure plate, i know that you can't tell the balance by looking at them, but they are identical.. so, unless the 258 is externally balanced or the 304 is balanced some other way than the torque converter, flex plate, or pressure plate, i don't see any external balancing. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying what i know

~~Elusive~~
it's sort of still a cj thingy....

 

From what I understand from my engine design classes. The I6 engine is balanced, by its geometry. Having 6 cylinders all inline makes the engine balanced as it is firing. I know my 304 has a harmonic balancer on the front of it, just like my 360. I have always heard that the 304 was externally balanced. Plus the 360 and the 304 share the same crank, right, so how could one be internally balanced, and the other externally balanced?

Jesse

Ignorance is the first step to knowledge.

 

i see the conflict there, Ive seen different part numbers for 258/304 flexplates and flywheels

also the flywheel on my 304 had a weight and holes drilled into it to balance.

but a 304 and a 360 use the same crank, so i ssume its externally balanced too

OzarkJeep
77 CJ5, in a bunch of pieces right now

 

perhaps the harmonic balancer is enough on the 304?.. i know my 304 was balanced and blue printed, and i am happy to get the neutral balanced components for it. you could be right... i am thinking about it..i don't think they ever put the tf727 behind a 304.. i know the waggoneers used the 258 and the 360. maybe when i ordered a flexplate for mine, and i told them that i didn't want the 360 flex plate, they gave me the only alternative(258). but i looked in the book myself and saw that the 304 and 258 were listed as the same part# when i went.. but i see your point about the cranks... i just don't know

~~Elusive~~
it's sort of still a cj thingy....

 

Now you know how hard it is to collect the information to do an article like this!!

And NOW you know how hard it is to process this much information and make it comprehensible...

Keep up the collection of information, and post it again in about a week or two when you have the upgrades...
--------------------------------

As for the raging 304-360 crank balance debate...
The balancing guide that came with our balancer says that,
ALL AMC ENGINES ARE EXTERNALLY BALANCED.
(That may or may not be specifically true. I suspect any printed source.)

Just because the flywheel or flex plates will interchange from the 258 to the 304 doesn't disprove that...
Casting the counter weight on the rear crank shaft flange is still an external balance.
Countering with a harmonic balancer is an external balance.

My experience is limited to the 360, and it ABSLOUTELY IS EXTERNALLY BALANCED.
I have 304 and 360 harmonic balancers here, and there are big differences.
I did notice the missing weight on the 304 flex plates...

So Many Cats, So Few Recipes...

 

Amen to that TeamRush /wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif

Thanks for the encouragement. I know that the swap bit is weak on trannys to go with the swap, but I've been going the "adaptorless" route and would like to keep it that way. Once an adaptor enters the picture, then Chebys seem to find their way into the engine bay.

Did you ever get around to testing out the TIG tip thing to oil the dist. gear?

Later,

Jeeper2
'86 CJ7/258/HEI/TF999/Dana44... soon to be a 360 /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

 

This will never make it into parts mikes board, because it's a custom install, and there is no way to mass produce it, and therefore make any money off of it...
I see they have not one, but two different versions of my Ford Cap/ TFI upgrade over there for sale...
No mention of where they got the information....
--------------------------------

I drilled the left (odd) bank lifter gallery plug in the front at an angle directed at the fuel pump eccentric and the distributor gear.
I threaded the plug, and screwed it back into the block.
I screwed a 0.024" mig welder tip into it.

When the oil pressure is up, it sprays a continuous stream of oil on the top crankshaft gear.
That oil is slung out to the timing chain, and applys a continuous supply of oil to the timing chain.

When the slots in the gear pass by, (half of the gear is open) the oil stream lands on the distributor gear and fuel pump eccentric, (both of which run virtually dry other wise).

I found the Hobart brand of mig tips are made of a better grade of brass, and have convenient flats that help in screwing it in.

Entire cost of the upgrade, $2.
Entire time for the upgrade, under 30 minutes, but I already had the front cover off the engine.

1. Figure the angle from the plug to the distributor gear.
2. Remove plug from block.
3. Drill hole in plug.
4. Thread hole in plug.
5. Reinstall plug, taking care to aim threaded hole at distributor gear.
6. Screw in MIG welder tip.
7. Drink a six pack while commenting on how smart you are!!

----------------------------------

Better print this out now before parts mike's sponsors want $49.95 for the instructions.

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

 

Wow, now that is cool. /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

My moonguy crew /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif is so excited that they can hardly wait to rip that timing cover off. Thanks TeamRush. This is a significant addition to the AMC oiling system. While I'm at it, the moonguys want to know what you think of lifter valley line that some install on the 360, and/or drilling holes in the lifter valley to get oil to the cam lobes quicker.

As always, your help is much appreciated.

Jeeper2
'86 CJ7/258/HEI/TF999/Dana44... soon to be a 360 with Duraspark /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

 

This may be the wrong direction, ( I know NOTHING about AMC V8's) but the whole internal/external balance thing brought up memories. Big Block Chryslers could be both internally OR externally balanced. Motors with forged steel crankshafts are internally balanced, while motors with cast iron cranks are externally balanced. I don't know if this applies to the AMC motors but it was worth spitting out if it makes sense to anyone.

Mike H.
1983 CJ-7 Laredo
1999 Dakota 4x4
/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gifo[[[[o

 

Just re-posting to move it up to the front. I would have thought that this post would have generated more feedback.

If I was a horse, they would have shot me years ago... /wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif

 

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif The reason nobody's posting is that they are in awe of the range and scope of this post and the technical stuff in it. We did the oiler upgrade before TR thought up the idea of using an inside squirter. I just expanded upon the PM idea of an external oil line to the timing cover for in-service engines where you don't want or can't pull the front end off. We have a pictorial that we have sent to several guys to assist in making this oiler upgrade, and if you would like to see it I will send you one. We also have a crankshaft oiler enhancement in the works, and the first week in MAy we are going to try it on the 304 in the SNOJEEP. We are going behind the engine plate with a shunt that ties the two oil galleries together. The oiling system on the 304 must have been designed by a child....they could have just copied a Chrysler and done fine, but no..../wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif. I'll let you know how our shunt turns out. It is a lot less risk than the internal shunt that the boys from FLA install./wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifMy moonguys/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifkeep mumbling something about getting it right from the factory.....I think they are remembering the big double-rocker Chrysler days.....sigh....now them was engines......heavy, yes.....but boy did they RUN!/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.

 

CJDave,

I think your talking about a rear crossover? If so, I found a guy who has a picture of just such a beast on his web site. I'll post it on Monday when I get back to the office and can peruse my hard copy.

If I was a horse, they would have shot me years ago... /wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif

 

What else are you looking for Jeeper2? I think it has been pretty well laid out for you. BTW, I am not sure what your plans are, and some who are more technically proficient than me may argue this with me...but I dont think, unless you plan for this engine to see the 6000-7000 rpm range, that you need to improve the oil system in the 360. For most purposes, the original configuration is sufficient. I would like to see more on the preferred clutch type though for those mounting to original CJ trannys....

/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
JK
O|||O
78CJ5 360

 

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif Yeah....that crossover is what we are doing. I'd be interested in seeing that site. I've seen a LOT of engines, both good and bad, and this AMC oil system is a joke. TeamRush posted a very technical piece in how the crankshaft oiling in engines is actually accomplished.....real interesting....he commented on the deficiencies inherent in the AMC design......not the least of which is the lack of a crossover. I can't wait to see that site. I'm busy in the office on a critical report tomorrow, but I'll sneak over to the Jeep BBS anyway to see if it's posted./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.

 

I went to drop in the 360 this weekend, and I found something new to add to the 360 swap guide (the hard way).

-My 360 was from a 1972 wagoneer, with 360/th400/dana 20.

-The original 360 transmission was a chevy bolt pattern, with an adapter to amc bolt pattern.

-The transmission in the Jeep is an AMC bolt pattern, from a 79 CJ 7 with 304/ th400/ quadratrac

-Went to put in the 360, and noticed that the 304 and the 360 cranks were different. The 360 crank had a spacer on the back of it. This spacer was about 1/2 inch thick, and pressed onto the crank (lightly) It came off with carefull persuasion from a brass hammer. Only problme now is I need a different flex plate. The 304 flex plat fits the 360, but the original 360 flexplate was made to fit on the spacer, not the crank. the crank opening is too small to fit directly on the crank. So I will call 4wd hardware and order the right flex plate today.

Bottom line. If you choose a 360 that had an adapter to a th400 for your swap, and are not using the same style th400... you will need to remove this spacer, and you will need a new flexplate. Add this to the guide... If I had known this I would have gotten the tngine in the jeep this weekend. Now I am waiting on the flexplate. I would just have the 304 flexplate rebalanced, but I already have promised it for sale (thinking I did not need it) and the 360-th400 flexplate is only $40 new. (I think this is the one I need).

Jesse




Ignorance is the first step to knowledge.

 

CJDave,

Here's the link to a guy who's building up a 304 in an AMC Spirit. He's got some good pictures of the crossover you're going to do.

http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/amcturbo/xtrmn8r.htm

If I was a horse, they would have shot me years ago... /wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif

 

So.... Back to the internally/externally balanced issue... If I have a 360 that was balanced with the harmonic balancer in place and no flywheel present, I should use a neutrally balanced flywheel?

 

yes if your engine is balanced without the flywheel. then you want to go with a nuetrally balanced flywheel..

survival is instinct, but living takes guts

 

A couple of years ago I had my 360 rebuilt. When having it rebuilt I had them polish the connecting rods and balance the motor. They needed the flywheel to balance the motor. So in my case I think the flywheel dose have something to do with the balance of the motor, or else why would they need the flywheel?

'77 CJ7 AMC360/T400/Q-trac/D30/D44