yup......you are right...it will work..
you will need a 1.6 modified motor mount too.....

all the messages about what motor is best....everyone has an opinion.....and it's their right to have one or two...lol

A friend of mine just built a 1.6 8 Valve, and used a 1.6 8 Valve head...he milled the head, decked the block and is using dual carbs...with a Low End Cam....

To make up for the milled head and decked block he used an adjustable cam sprocket, that I was about to test out...man that made that thing pick up some power!

5th gear with 33's and just a GRSII...light on the gas...with no whimpering for power....up hill, against the wind....I'm going to get some more of those cam sprockets made..they really help out when you want to dial your cam in!

Dave

 

you can use the 1.6 head with your 1.3 EFI for even more power

 

I dunno what the fuel flow rate of the 1.3 EFI is but you should investigate it to make sure that you get the full amount of power that you are due.

If the injector is too small you can always increase the size of the injector and/or increase the fuel pressure as long as you don't start hitting the injectors duty cycle.

HTH

c.
--
http://root.moose.ca/~chris

 

To DaveAZ:
>>you will need a 1.6 modified motor mount too.....

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

>>A friend of mine just built a 1.6 8 Valve, and used a 1.6 8 Valve head...he
>>milled the head, decked the block ...

That's what I'm planning too, except I don't want to use carburator at all, I can troubleshoot EFI fairly easily, while any carb problem leaves me in the dark. Go figure /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

>>To make up for the milled head and decked block he used an adjustable cam
>>sprocket...

Where did you get that sprocket - or did you make it yourself???

To ZOOKY:
>>you can use the 1.6 head with your 1.3 EFI for even more power

What's exactly the difference?? Different shape of combustion chamber?? Bigger ports?? Bigger valves?? Anything else??

To RootMoose:

>>I dunno what the fuel flow rate of the 1.3 EFI is but you should
>>investigate it to make sure that you get the full amount of power that you are due.

>>If the injector is too small you can always increase the size of the injector
>>and/or increase the fuel pressure as long as you don't start hitting the injectors duty cycle.

That is of my concern too. I suppose the 1.3 injector is smaller than 1.6. I don't know what the flow rate of either one is - do you?? Would the 1.6 injactor fit the 1.3TB I wonder....The c'puter can accomodate a sligt increase of the injector size, but not much before it falls off of the pre-programming operating tables. Hmmm...I guess a 'live' experiment would prove me right (or wrong I'm afraid).

FYI, playing with the fuel pressure is another thing worth trying on any EFI engine regardles of other modifications. I once came across a test results done on a new F350. They've done different mods to it and put it on the dyno each time to check power/torque in-[de]crease, fuel consumption, etc. The mods included intake (K&N filter, thermo-barriers, ports, etc.), exhaust, cams, and also the fuel delivery pressure. First of all the actual pressure was too high by a few PSI....they put an adjustable regulator in and tested the truck again with different pressures. The best dyno results came from the pressure set slightly below (if I remember correctly) OEM value.....most of us don't have a dyno, but a careful observations and measurements can be home-made as well as anything else I suppose.

-marker

 

TO get it right, you need the 1.6 TBI and I would assume the ECM too. The million dollar question is, can the 1.6 ECM "plug and play" into the 1.3 TBI harness? If so, the conversion would be super simple. Drop the 1.6 long block and TBI into the Sammy and swap ECM's.

Yankee Tim/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

 

Keep it simple, boost the pressure to start. There are formulae for doing the calculations based on what your current injector is.

As for the 1.3/1.6 fuel flow rates. I dunno, probably quite low. Go to CarQuest or similar and do the look up thing and compare the type of injector to other injectors that are the same configuration but larger flow rate. There must be a similar match...Most Nippon-Denso (I think that is what the 1.3 EFI is, maybe...) stuff is a blatant rip off of Bosch so don't be surprised if you end up with a Bosch/BMW injector or something. If it is Mitsubishi that means there will be lots of choice.

The problem with messing with the fuel pressure is that it might raise the stock injector above its optimum duty cycle. At that point it is pretty much wide open all the time - gets to be lots of tuning problems. End up with fuel pooling behind the intake valves or in the manifold. The solution is go with a larger injector.

If you add a cam or a header/exhaust you will probably need the larger injector - fuel pressure only won't cut it I'm guessing.

RC Engineering has lots of online info on this stuff. Check them out.

I doubt the TBI for the 1.6 is swap in without changing the entire harness/ECU/etc. I may be wrong but the 1.3 EFI set up I have on the shelf here is nothing like my buddies 1.6 TBI setup visually.

c.
--
http://root.moose.ca/~chris

 

Oh, one other thing. The ECU will be oblivious to the new injector size. All it cares about is the O2 out the tail pipe when in closed feed back mode plus water temp and stuff...

As long as combustion is good the EFI will think it is still stock.

I have heard from a friend that a cam doesn't work well with this setup. His complaint was that the difference wasn't noticable. My guess is that he ran out of fuel flow. He got a big improvement with better header/exhaust but that probably maxed the injector. Just a wild assed guess.

Probably the same problem with the guys that had 16V cams made up.

EFI is relatively simple but you have to understand what it is doing to get it to work right with your setup.

c.
--
http://root.moose.ca/~chris

 

"Where did you get that sprocket - or did you make it yourself?"

A friend is making them for us...we're waiting to get them dyno tuned, as soon as the local shop has the dyno up and running....but for right now they sure make a big differance, we have been just playing around with what works best for the 1.3, and 1.6's....they are still in the testing stage..he hasn't even gave me a price yet....

Dave

 

RootMoose wrote:

>>Oh, one other thing. The ECU will be oblivious to the new injector size. All
>>it cares about is the O2 out the tail pipe when in closed feed back mode plus
>>water temp and stuff...

Yep, that's right. What I was trying to say was that ECU is factory programmed with some tolerance (called "Operating Tables" or so) in the other words it will accomodate to a certain degree the engine's increased thirst for fuel. The question is of course if the 1.3-->1.6 capacity increase will still fit the ECU's program. Probably not I'm afraid, but OTOH injector size increase should help in terms of the O2 sensor feedback.
In plain English:

1. bigger engine = bigger fuel consumption
but...
2. clean burning small engine O2 reading = clean burning bigger engine O2 reading (more or less)

So...if I can get the injector just the right size to make the O2 sensor happy, I'm laughing /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif. ECU will never know what amount of fuel is being burned; as long as the O2 readings are acceptable. I wonder if the 1.6's injector fits the 1.3 seat???? The TB itself is definitely different. Well, it's time for another junkyard visit....

-marker

 

Is there a book i can read about fuel injection. I know a good bit about it but id like to be able to read up on it some more. I think im gonna need to know quite a bit about it since im goin to try to supercharge my 16v.

About the supercharging, izook did a thing about a camden supercharger for the 1600 but when i checked camdens site they dont have a catalog that i could order. Does anybody have any expereince in supercharging motors.

Thanks for any help.



Will
"It aint the wand its the magician"
"Keep the shiny side up"
Tread lightly

 

I think the injector is the same between the 1.3 and 1.6. The difference is the size of the throttle bore, the 1.6 is much bigger. It cant be any worse then the stock 1.3 carb being ran on a 1.6.

 

Supercharged

As far as adding a blower is concerned - you will need to really richen the fuel mixture to make sure detonation doesn't destroy the engine. The 16V is something like 10:1 CR already, to run a blower you really should stay under about a half bar of boost as you will be bumping the effective CR up to 10.5-11.0 or so. These engines (G16B) don't have a reputation for blowing head gaskets but why tempt fate, right?

I have heard that the ECU in the 16V doesn't compensate well for add ons. Probably a myth but worth considering - basically means you'll need to add some "piggy back" ECUs to handle fuel and ignition in addition to tweaking the fuel delivery.

All that being said, 0.5 bar will probably do wonders for power.

c.
--
http://root.moose.ca/~chris

 

Does the latter model of 1.6 have MAS sensor???? If so, then adding blower or hi-cams makes sense, if it doesn't then being only an air density EFI system, the engine will not react very well for those changes. Just my .02, please correct me if I'm wrong.

-marker

 

WOW this is an excellent thread. I'm planning on adding a low end cam (have headers already)to an EFI 8v 1.6. If I were to do the math and get the correct (larger) Injector for the TBI, Will the computer operate normaly or will the ECM need to be modified or replaced also?

"Reality goes on without me!"

 

whazoo wrote:

...>>I'm planning on adding a low end cam ...

Read the post above. The "air density" EFI systems in general do not like any intake changes; that's why the MAS sensor was invented - to read the actual amount of air getting in. The Tracker's ECU has that info pre-programmed in the factory and anything more than that (caused bu e.g. hi-cam) will not be compensated for - unless the latter models come with the MAS sensor, in which case the cam changes and even a mild blower would work.
As an example there is a procedure to adapt a MAS sensor in early EFI Mustangs, so their owners can use aftermarket intake stuff.

I hope it helps

-marker

 

Regardless of what system you have (MAF or MAP) there are ways to work with them. Adding an aux. fuel computer will handle it.

The 8V TBI works fine with mods from what I've seen from people in this area.

 

RootMoose wrote:

>>Regardless of what system you have (MAF or MAP) there are ways to work with
>>them....

Well, I agree...partially /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif.
MAP_based systems do not know the amount of air being used. They read the intake manifold pressure, TPS position, O2 sensor and water/air temperature and compare those values with the internal tables. Then ECU opens the injector accordingly.
Now, imagine that you modify e.g. the valvetrain timing by putting a wider cam. As a result, the amount of air drawn into the engine will increase. The amount of fuel should increase too to keep the stechiometric ratio (1:14 or so)constant.

In the MAS equipped engine it happens automatically (to a certain degree of course) because that's it's job: to measure an actual amount of air getting in.

The air_density (MAP) system will try to compensate the missing amount of fuel based solely on the O2 readings, but that's a "poor man's" solution - slow and highly inaccurate. Forget about adding a radical cam or (God forbid blower.....

>>....Adding an aux. fuel computer will handle it.

Ehmmmm...what's that exactly?

>>The 8V TBI works fine with mods from what I've seen from people in this area.

Hey, I'm just speculating about and discussing an interesting matter; by no means I claim to be an EFI expert - there's much more to it than my pea-sized brain can accomodate /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif

I'll be happy if I someone can learn from my experiences (and mistakes), if not - no biggie.

-marker

 

MAP seems to be the prefered way (over MAF) in order to be able to have the ECU respond properly to modifications. On Japanese vehicles anyway. Mainly because it is not as fussy as a MAF and MAF can only accomodate up to a certain amount of change... These are generalizations, depending on manufacturer that may not be the case.

An auxillary fuel computer allows you to modify the injection signals as they come out of the ECU and/or modify the fuel pressure accordingly so that you can tune the amount of fuel being delivered. You can vary the signals based upon engine speed and gear selected. APEX, HKS, etc. all make something along these lines. Some modify the ignition curves as well.

I'm a fan of the TEC-II myself. It replaces the stock ECU for all intents and purposes but leaves the stock ECU in place to handle some of the signals like the radiator fan for example (and the linkage between it and the AC where appropriate, etc.). From what I've read, major bang for the buck - even though it is fairly expensive relative to all the piggy back computers.

c.
--
http://root.moose.ca/~chris