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post #1 of (permalink) Old 09-20-2003, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
 
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OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

Like I mentioned in the previous post, I need to clock this HUGE NP241 case up for better clearance. As it stands now, I can clock it up to it's maximum height where it hits the lower corner of the frame. But I need it up by at least another inch or so. The part of the case that hits the frame is one of the bolts that holds the 2 case halves together, so I can't cut it off or grind it down any.

What I wanted to do was to cut out (from the inside area of the frame) an area of about 2.5" high by maybe 4" wide. Make sense? I would do this in an oval shape too so that it would maybe be structurally stronger. I would also plate the whole area (outside/inside/top/bottom) to add extra support just to that area. It would basically look like an egg shaped hole had been cut out from inside the frame, and would NOT go all the way through. Just on the inside face of the frame. BTW, this rig will go on road too, a lot.

Now, I know lots of rigs come stock out of the factory with just C-channel frames, not boxed like the Zuk, and I was just hoping someone could give me some input as to whether or not I would be safe in doing this???? Thanks for your help guys [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Steve
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 09-20-2003, 04:02 PM
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without prob

there shouldn't be any problems...your actually adding more than you're taking off making it stronger. even if you dont add the other metal the box section will be strong enough
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post #3 of (permalink) Old 09-20-2003, 05:00 PM
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

When you weld in your plates weld the hoizontal seams and leave the vertical seams. you not really adding
any additional strangth with those welds and it usually disrupts the adjacent material so that the base frame
is weakened. I just put in rock rail frame horns in the same way, here is a pic if you can see what I'm
talking about. I welded the 2x3 horn, all around, to a 3x3-1/2 plate, and welded that plates top and bottom
edges to the frame. The horn also got welded to the body mount strut, and is strong as hell.
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 09-20-2003, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

Thanks for the help guys [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] That's interesting about welding the frame Outlaw...had me thinking... When I weld in my new motor mounts, I was going to plate the whole area. Now that I read your post, it will probably be a good thing to just do the same as you said and just weld the tops and bottoms of the plates, and not the sides. Good thing I asked this when I did [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Steve
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 09-20-2003, 05:55 PM
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

Glad you could benefit from it Steve.

I have always heard a lot of people say their welds are stronger than the base metal. (Sometimes true)
and it is a fact that the tinsel and yield strength of many welding materials is higher than carbon steel.
I have also heard this same crowd claim their welds never break.

Well, I have had few failures also, but I have seen too many other welders failures of welds and material
adjacent to welds. Sometimes its due to poor/nonexistent gusseting, and sometimes due to destroying
the adjacent material while welding. A good example of this is failed welds on SPOA pads. did the weld fail?
No, the load is downwards, but the tube ripped out. Oh, so the welds DID fail, since the material next
to it failed. Isn't that the responsibility of the person doing the welding?

I'm a firm believer in people taking responsibility for the whole job, and not blaming the failure of something
else when they should have considered that effect. Modifying frames, adding steering box's, motor and
tranny mounts, and cage mounting, etc. all change the load and stress and strain on any structure.

Every so often people diss me for my philosophy on welding on frames. They will point out they did it and
had no problems. Or that it only applies to heat-treated frames. Well, they are entitled to their opinions.
In my opinion they got lucky, or the weld was never stressed hard enough or long enough to fracture it.

I will continue to preach the approach I use. It works, destructive testing has proven to me the theory
is sound, and many years seeing where the practice of vertical welding led to failure, sooner or later, leaves
me confidant of the practice.

Rant off! You punched one of my buttons! LOL

[img]images/graemlins/40BEER.gif[/img]
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 09-20-2003, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

Sounds like you take work work seriously. I admire that.

But after reading your post, I started searching the net and found a lot of info addressing the issue of welding on the frame. Oh, before I go on, is the Samurai frame heat-treated??? Anyway, most of the info basically mentioned that it is definitely OK to weld on the frame citing that if it wasn't, how could you chop and reattach frames? I haven't got the slightest idea of what can and can't be done to a frame. That's why I asked [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

When you said that vertical frame welds tend to fail, are you referring to the actual act of welding vertically, or that the weld itself will sit vertically and fail? I'm asking because when it comes to me welding this all, the frame will be right off of the truck and I'll be able to put it on its side. That way all my "vertical" welds will have been done horizontally actually [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Sorry but I have another question, if you don't mind. I don't have a lot of experience welding and was always wondering what diameter wire I should use when welding 2 pieces together, if different thicknesses? For example, welding some 1/4 plate to the frame which is only like 1/8". Should the wire be matched to the lesser thickness? ie. the frame thickness? And of course, I would lower the amperage accordingly. Thanks for all your help!!!! [img]images/graemlins/40BEER.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Steve
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 09-21-2003, 12:15 AM
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

I'm not talking about the direction of the weld while welding, sorry for the confusion. That can be handled
by proper welding technique.

By vertical welds I'm talking about the direction the weld is with respect to the frame material. Verbal short
hand I should not have used. Sorry. It actually has more to do with the direction of the loads on the
stressed member. On a main frame rail, that happens to be a load that is applied in a bending moment
like you are flexing the rail, trying to bend it. If you set the frame ends on jack stands and placed a
weight in the middle, that's the basic load a frame sees. Its vertical and side to side although the side
to side load is usually less. Is that a better explanation?

If you now cut the frame vertically, then weld it back up, you have compromised the integrity of
the frame member some. That's why frame splices either get diagonal cuts, then welded, or, are plated to
reinforced the splice, or both. The diagonal cut gives you a longer area to weld and changes the load
on the weld from a straight tension and compression load, to one that is less than straight.

If you cut a frame lengthwise and weld it up, that weld is flexing instead of going into compression and
tension, and has little chance to fail, and even if it did, the frame isn't likely to fail catastrophically.

As far as I know the sami frame is not heat treated. its your basic mild steel box tube. heat treatment is
usually reserved for Semi tractor frames, alloy ones at that. The sami frame can be easily welded, but
there are good and bad ways to do it.

The wire diameter question is difficult to answer without knowing about your equipment. With a 110 welder
Even a good one, I would never use wire over .030 for any reason. The thinner the material you are
welding the smaller a wire you want to run. If you're running a heavier 220 rig, you might go up to .035
and a really big machine can go higher. Then there is the question of flux-cored wire or straight MIG
welding. The flux-cored wire runs hotter and so is better for heavier materials. That pretty critical for
a 110 machine. MIG shielding gas effectively cools the weld arc. I guess I wouldn't run less than .030
on the sami frame in either case. Save the .025 for the thin stuff.

The real trick to welding 1/4 to a piece of 1/8 material Is keeping most of the heat on the 1/4 material.
Better still, Pre heat the 1/4 material before you weld. Not red hot, just too hot to touch will do. Even
with a 110 it welds like butter then.

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post #8 of (permalink) Old 09-21-2003, 07:04 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

It's official, you are a wealth of knowledge [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Thanks again for all that help. I appreciate the time you took to answer it for me.

Sorry, I forgot to mention the machine I'm running. It's a Lincoln Mig Pak 15 using shielding gas. Runs on 220 and puts out max amp at around 150 or so (I've seen contradicting figures). I think I'll run .030 wire and be sure to heat the plate. Can't wait to get out there and start welding again! [img]images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Steve
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post #9 of (permalink) Old 09-21-2003, 08:25 AM
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

i use a weld pack 100 and .025 wire with gas i like the .025 wire better than the .030 wire. it just flows better for me and i dont have to turn the gas up as much.

but i over weld everything. in the pictures attached the shock tower is 3/16 and the zuk frame i think it is less than 1/8. it is offset and i weld the first pass to fill the void and to heat the metal. then i come back and one the second weld do a slow side to side with a little bit of a circle to weld both sides together. and it works great
for the bottom after it was hot and from both sides being welded, i welded the bottom with one pass
i would suggest that the piece you cut out use it as a test piece and weld some 1/4 to it and then try to break it also if it is flat then it is easier than tring to weld on your side
i hate to weld upsidedown

here are some tips and info from lincon's webb site
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...sfluxcored.asp

General Usage Rules

MIG

As a rule of thumb, it is recommended to use a compact 115volt input (or 230 volt) MIG wirefeeder/welder indoors on clean new steel that is 24 to 12 gauge thick. 12 gauge is a little less than 1/8" thick. 24 gauge is less than 1/16" thick. The smallest wire(.025") will make it the easiest to weld the thinnest(24 gauge) material. The .030" diameter wire will weld a little faster deposition rate. If you need to weld 1/8" to " thick material with MIG, you will need the higher capacity compact machine which will require 230 volt input. The higher amperage range of this machine can better handle your welding needs in a single pass and you may not have to waste time with second or third passes. The 230 volt machine could also run .035" diameter wire. To MIG weld material more than " thick, you need a higher capacity truly industrial machine. If most of your welding will be performed indoors on clean material that is less than 1/8" thick, a MIG machine that operates on 115 volts is probably your best bet for economic reasons in that a 230 volt input machine will be more expensive.



Flux-Cored
The flux-cored process is only recommended on materials as thin as 20 gauge, a bit thicker than the 24 gauge we said for MIG. In general, this process is best for welding thicker materials with a single pass, especially if you need to weld outdoors such as to repair a tractor out in the field. A 115 volt flux-cored machine using an electrode such as .035" Innershield NR-211-MP will generally allow you to weld steel up to "thick. Note that this is more than double the thickness maximum of 12 gauge with MIG on 115 volts. With the proper electrode on a proper machine, such as .045" Innershield NR-211MP, and a 230 volt input machine, you can weld steel up to 1/2" thick. Note that NR-211MP requires that the machine be setup for DC negative polarity.










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post #10 of (permalink) Old 09-21-2003, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: OK, can I cut the frame like this without problems

Once again, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!! [img]images/graemlins/40BEER.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Steve
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