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I would like a GOOD GOUND for my Alternator

4K views 49 replies 14 participants last post by  Junk Yard Genius 
#1 ·
Swapping in a 94 4.0 motor into my CJ has taught me a lot. One of the last things I want to do with the motor is create a seperate ground for the stock alternator. Where on the alternator should I connect the ground wire and where should I run it to...the frame, engine mount, straight back to the negative terminal of the battery, where? Thanks for the help.
 
#2 ·
Why are you have to make a seperat ground ? I geuss Im missing something, the alternator should be grounded through the brackets and just run a heavy ground from the motor to the frame... I have allways used a battery cable for my grounds, easeir to find then them big heavy duty straps that my local parts store never seems to have in stock...
 
#3 ·
Good Question. Not having proper grounds on the PCM and computer for my 4.0 transplant have been the most important thing in getting the engine to operate correctly. Not having well connected or available grounds have taught me more that anything during my engine swap. Since the altenator is the energy heart to operate all the a-zillion amp hungry stuff in my Jeep, I don't want to take any chances, hence I want to be dog-gone sure I have the best possible ground for that enrgy producing device. Thanks.

P.S. I took me months (my bride would say years, hehehe,) to sort out a 94 OEM YJ wiring harness to get just what I needed to mate it over to my 85 CJ.
 
#4 ·
I'd run it from a bolt on the body of the alternator right back to the negative terminal of the battery. I have a ground cable from the negative terminal to a bolt through the firewall where I have a second cable to the dash (metal dash on a cj). It might be overkill, but who could fault someone having separate grounds to the block, grill, firewall, dash, starter solenoid, alternator? If you have the time, go for it. A common brass terminal on the firewall might be a good place to branch out from for smaller secondary grounds, and I'd run a heavy separate one to the block and alternator.
 
#6 · (Edited)
We've been preaching this for years!

Here is the scoop,
Electrically speaking,
You are driving several jeeps in very close formation, but none of them actually connected...

Loose fasteners, rust, mud, paint, ect. all conspire to keep your jeep from grounding correctly.

The reason your jeep didn't come with dedicated ground wires was...
MONEY!
It would probably cost $3 extra dollars at the factory to add proper grounding, but the factory thought that was too much.
And once your jeep made it through the 12 month warranty period, grounding problems were money in the bank!
Either you paid to have them fixed, or you paid to buy a new vehicle...
----------

On your alternator problem,
Use at least a 10 gauge wire, run it from the alternator housing to the primary ground...
In your case, that will probably be your negative battery terminal connector.

As you have found out, PROPER grounds are few and far between.
Here are some things you might do to insure a proper ground and power system...















Now, from your binding post, you can run as many grounds as you need too...
Like one to the dash, one to the tail lights and fuel tank, one to the ignition module and engine block...

If you live in a wet area, DO NOT use woven ground straps.
They are open to everything the environment can throw at them and don't fare very well.

For battery cables, use at least a 4 gauge fine strand wire, or 2 gauge 'battery cable'...
An excellent wire to use for battery cable is welding cable.
Welding cable is fine strand, carries more current and is easier to bend and shape.
Welding cable is usually virgin copper, no alloys, so it will carry more current for the size of wire and will solder or crimp better.
Welding cable is easy to acquire, even NAPA sells it.
Welding cable has a rubberized insulation that is resistant to abrasion, chemicals, heat... All the things you find under a hood.
Welding cables will fit into any of the common battery terminals...
BUT,
I recommend the sold copper, lead cadmium plated, crimp on style battery terminal connectors NAPA (and others) sell.
They are the correct size and shape, are much sturdier than lead terminals, and have the correct type of stainless steel battery bolt.

When you terminate your wires, use a solid copper terminal.
Some will be lead or nickle plated, and that's OK, but the base metal should be copper, not steel or lead!

Crimp on these terminals, then solder them down.
Crimping is only a MECHANICAL connection, solder is an electrical connection...

Don't forget to use glue fill heat shrink tubing!
This seals out the elements to make your new cables and wires darn near impervious to the elements!
Different colors of heat shrink will show color-coding for positive and negative, as well as some different colors for wires, like the feed to the alternator after the fusible link...
(Helps keep the harness straight in my head)
 
#7 ·
On your alternator problem,
Use at least a 10 gauge wire, ...
For battery cables, use at least a 4 gauge fine strand wire, or 2 gauge 'battery cable'...
Not near big enough on either.

Welding cable is fine strand, carries more current ...
Welding cable is usually virgin copper, no alloys, so it will carry more current for the size of wire ...
I'm gonna need a reference on this one. I've been doing electrical for a lot of years and I've never heard of this. I think its more likely some bad conclusion jumping.

Comparing the ampacity for copper wire to the ampacity chart for welder cable, it would seem that welder cable is indeed higher than copper wire. The problem lies in using the wrong table for the copper wire, another table for wire in free air and comparing at the 90° temperature as in the chart for the welder cable, the ampacity increases. The welder cable chart has length limits, the copper wire chart does not.

To the side in the welder cable chart, there is another table given for 600V applications, the same voltage as the copper wire rating. Note that the ratings for welder cable are now lower than for wire in free air, but also note that the ratings for the welder cable are given at 40° ambient temperature. The NEC Table 310.17 wire ratings were as stated, "Based on Ambient Air Temperature of 30°C." Below the table is a correction factor table for the higher temperature.

Now, we could make it difficult try to determine the temperature where the wire is or just use the enclosed conductor chart. 6 AWG will get you up to 140 amps or better for your alternator. If it's only 85 amps, you COULD get by with 8 AWG. If you drop down to 10 AWG figuring that the alternator bracket, through the engine to ground will carry most of the load, you might want to read the Fire Extinguisher Mounting Options thread. For battery cable, I like at least 1/0 (one aught), 2/0 if I can get it.

The wire or welding cable is up to you. My jumper cables are welder lead mostly because they were free (cut out of an old cable with insulation cuts) but they also easy to handle and roll into a nice small loop for storage. Welder cable is easier to form but also doesn't hold its shape so it has to be supported every few inches.
 
#9 ·
Well there you have it! He He - Now you can build the entire watch from welding cable! Thanks TAZ.

Most of the "store bought" battery cables sold by AutoChina etc are 8, or even 6 gauge. According to Taz's chart they won't work at all.

Many jumper cables use only 10 Ga wire - with really thick insulation to scam you into thinking they'll work on Taz's 600 volt alternator. They don't work either, according to the chart.

Welding cable works fine!
 
#10 ·
Must be a California thing, more greenie stuff. Here, I've never seen battery cables smaller than 4 AWG at AutoZONE or ADVANCED Auto, I can always find 2 AWG and sometimes 1/0. Doing a quick check, 4 AWG is the smallest I found on the AutoZONE website. If I were going to the trouble to build my own cables, they'd be 2/0.

Your dyslexia is kicking up again. That 600 volts is the wire insulation rating of most all wire.

We're too smart here to buy 10 AWG for jumper cables. I found some on a clearance table. Once you separate 'em, they make great jumper WIRES.
 
#12 ·
jeeperjohn, I use MS paint or one of those things that have been in my computer since Win '95.
Nothing to them really.
-----------
=================

I guess taz is blowing off again...
I have him on the ignore list so my life is easier than the rest of you have it :D ...
-----

Some FACTS,

If you have over a 100 amp alternator, and you think you will be draining your vehicle at full capacity, you may want to use a 2 Gauge wire from the alternator 'Batt' terminal to the solenoid...
A 2 gauge wire will transmit over 100 Continuous amps with out overheating.
(Keep in mind your alternator usually idles at under 10 amps for most of it's life, so this would be a HUGE waste of time and money...)
--------------

If you are using any alternator on planet earth smaller than the one needed to launch the space shuttle,
(like a Delco SI series that most of us are running)
10 Ga. wire us usually enough.
10 Ga. will handle over 30 amps continuous, and will handle short term loads over 50 amps...

If you have one of the alternators that will power a small city, Like some of the 'Electric Everything' vehicles use, it's probably a CS series...
And if you are loading it until the amp gauge smokes and screams at you...
In that case I'd use an 8 or 6 gauge wire.

I weld and jump completely dead vehicles with 4 gauge wire, so that should tell you something right there...
--------------------

If you have an average vehicle load, as in the usual, lights, wipers, ignition, ect...
You alternator will only be supplying about 30 to 40 amps to the vehicle.
That's 8 gauge wire with no heating...

Since CJ's don't have electric defrosters, or 'Power Everything' (I'd settle for 'Power Anything!) your alternator is going to 'Idle' at about 10 amps.
That's usually what it takes to power the ignition, brake lights/turn signals, fuel injectors and keep the battery topped off with the A/C running.
--------------

MORE FACTS!

The first fact is your battery supplies the current for you devices, not the alternator.
The alternator is a 'Pump' that fills the battery back up after usage, so the entire load (and in actuality, the battery is over charged when the vehicle is running), so virtually none of the vehicle load is coming from the alternator

Here is the Brown & Sharp used by everyone for low voltage DC wiring...

10 Ga./ 32.5 amps continuous with out heating from resistance.
8 Ga./ 46.1 amps continuous.
6 Ga./ 65.2 amps continuous.
4 Ga./ 92.3 amps continuous.
2 Ga./ 131 amps continuous.
0 Ga. (also expresses as 1/0) 185 amps continuous.
00 Ga. (also expressed as 2/0) 220 amps continuous.
000 Ga. (also expressed as 3/0) 262 amps continuous.
0000 Ga. (also expressed as 4/0) 312 amps continuous.

4 Ga. is usually plenty to get a stock engine started if the battery/starter run is kept short.
(and I've never seen a 'Long' run on a SWB Jeep even when the battery was in the extreme rear of the vehicle!)

Now, this information pertains to virgin copper wire, not alloyed wire used in most 'Battery Cables' and 'Automotive Wiring'...
Welding cable is virgin copper for no other reason than welders won't put up with nonsense.

Remember, this wire will transmit much more amperage, these are the ratings at which the wire will NOT heat up.
If you transmit more amperage through the wire, it will pass, but the wire will begin to heat.
For the short duration you are cranking the engine, the 4 Ga. wire is plenty...
--------------------------------

Now, for a bit of information...
Our electric air compressors need a 70 Amp relay to stay alive...
We feed that 70 amp relay with an 8 Ga. wire.
This seems like a contradiction in the scale, but it's not, and here is why...

First,
The compressor will require about 68 amps to get started when pulling against a pressurize line.
The compressor kicks on at 135 PSI, so the piston/motor has to overcome that 135 PSI from a dead stop.
That will spike amperage required to get things started MOMENTARILY to around 68 to 70 amps.
Within a half second the motor is turning quickly, and the amperage required drops to about 30 amps.

Same principal with your starter motor on your jeep engine...
A Hard 'grunt' to get things started moving, then amp requirement drops way off...
That's why you can start most vehicles with a lawn mower battery with no problem...

That relay and 8 gauge wire, and compressor are bringing a 5 gallon tank up to 150 PSI in about 4 minutes.
After the initial amperage spike, the requirement drops off to about 30 amps, and the 8 Ga. wire is more than capable of doing 30 amps all day!

In fact, I know people that have used our air compressor relays, sockets and harnesses as starter relays in a pinch, and I know of one guy that has two in parallel starting his vehicle for over a year now!
That's a 140 amp capacity starting a vehicle in Indiana cold with what are basically driving light relays...

So, if you find yourselves buying into 'taz crap', just throw us a line and we'll be glad to help you with correct information...
 
#16 ·
Only time to hit the high points. My son and granddaughter came over to swim today. I cooked dinner on the grill and I still need to clean up after. Miles to go before I sleep.

I guess taz is blowing off again...
I have him on the ignore list so my life is easier than the rest of you have it :D ...
How is it easier when you have to log-in/log-out or remove and re-add me to your ignore list to read what I posted? It's obvious you read it.

If you have an average vehicle load, as in the usual, lights, wipers, ignition, ect...
You alternator will only be supplying about 30 to 40 amps to the vehicle.
That's 8 gauge wire with no heating...
It's winter, it's still dark, it's cold and it's snowing. I just started the Jeep and jumped my neighbors car for him before I left the house so the battery is low. I've got dual electric radiator fans, I've got the heated seats turned on, the wipers are on high, the headlights are on, the defroster blower is on high, I've got my emergency flashers on in hopes that it will help others see me on the highway and I just pressed the cigarette lighter in. I don't have a rear window defroster but if I did, it would be on too. How much current is the alternator putting out at say 45mph?

The first fact is your battery supplies the current for you devices, not the alternator.
Wrong, electrons don't have road maps and will go the route of lowest resistance. The alternator voltage is a little higher than what the battery will supply also. Even if you were right and the battery was supplying current to the devices, the alternator would be replacing the battery charge as quickly as it was drained.

Here is the Brown & Sharp used by everyone for low voltage DC wiring...
Actually, it's Brown & Sharpe (with an "E") and they standardized the gauge size for copper wire, it's the same as AWG. They may have set current ratings but NEC (National Electric Code) is normally recognized as the source for current rating although they round down for fuse size and they start at 14 ga. High or low voltage makes no difference in wire size. Everybody I know uses NEC so not "everyone" uses Brown & Sharpe. The ratings are NOT so that the wire will not heat up, the ratings are to keep heating to an allowable limit. Your 10ga is good for 30 amps unless you can find a 33.2 amp fuse link for the one shown in your drawing.

If you point was to impeach the source I used in the link, fine, show me the error. I'd have preferred to use the NEC table but all I found were part of large pdf links and not dial-up friendly for some of our members.

For your relay, the constant current is often not the most important consideration. As you say, inrush is another concern even for purely resistive loads such as lighting where the resistance increases as the filaments heat up. For inductive loads, the break current is often the most important. This is what causes arcing and burns contacts.
 
#13 ·
Just to add a little - the batteries we use for automotive really can't take much more than 30 amps to charge it back up - whether it's totally dead or just down slightly. It will overheat and destroy itself quickly if you try to give it more than that.
Fortunately to get it to accept much more than 30 amps it takes at least 17 volts to "push" it in.

The alternator ground - the alternator case itself is bolted to the engine. That alone "should be" sufficient. But bolts tend to corrode, get loose etc., especially in the environments we subject our Jeeps to, so "should be" isn't always true. A ground strap from the alternator case to the battery negative is insurance that it's always getting a good ground.
And -- don't forget a GOOD ground - or 2 (insurance) from Engine to battery negative.
AND ground(s) from body to battery negative.

And as suggested, grounding one part of the body does not insure the entire body is grounded.

Poor grounds can cause lots of crazy symptoms that can drive you nuts!
 
#14 ·
JYG, never came across "glue fill heat shrink tubing" could you tell me where to get some? I live by shrink tubing and glob some liquid electrical tape (same as silicone, but colored so I can figure out what is what where :) on the ends if they don't look sealed.
 
#15 ·
Thanks for the wisdom, I now can get all those negative electrons where they need to be in short order. I can't wait to see and hear my CJ perform better beacuse of this. Great graphics Aaron.
 
#17 ·
"""""electrons don’t have road maps """""

Gee - really? What do you think TAZ, they use GPS's in this modern day and age?



If the alternator's (+) output safely uses a 10 gauge, why would the alternator's ground system carry more current and need to be larger? Especially since it's in parallel with the brackets and engine block - far less resistive than your #2 or 0!

Basic electricity TAZ - read up on it!

I just bought a 6 AWG 18" long cable with eye ends last week - at AutoChina - from the local store, not from the internet. I'm using it to connect 2 batteries for 24 volts for my Ready Welder.
 
#18 ·
If the alternator's (+) output safely uses a 10 gauge, why would the alternator's ground system carry more current and need to be larger?
I don't think he's safely using a 10 gauge on the plus. I think he's still in the build stage so he's not running yet.

He's also wanting to use an electric fan, but I wouldn't expect you to remember that since you cant remember what wire gauge I said to use in this post.
Especially since it's in parallel with the brackets and engine block - far less resistive than your #2 or 0!
I said 6 or he might get by with 8 for an 85 amp alternator.
Now, we could make it difficult try to determine the temperature where the wire is or just use the enclosed conductor chart. 6 AWG will get you up to 140 amps or better for your alternator. If it's only 85 amps, you COULD get by with 8 AWG.
I never said 2 and the 1/0 was for battery cables.
For battery cable, I like at least 1/0 (one aught), 2/0 if I can get it.
That fan he's using is a high draw that wasn't part of the original Jeep. While the 10AWG from the factory may have been sufficient for the original Jeep, it's not with the addition of nearly constant draw, high current additions.

Using your same argument, if the Jeep safely operated without a dedicated ground from the alternator ground, why add one? The quote I remember from my father the best was, "If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing right." So, if you are going to the trouble to add a dedicated ground, why not spend the little extra so you don't have to do it over?

I just bought a 6 AWG 18" long cable with eye ends last week - at AutoChina - from the local store, not from the internet. I'm using it to connect 2 batteries for 24 volts for my Ready Welder.
"There's a sucker born every minute."
 
#19 · (Edited)
"""""4 AWG is the smallest I found on the AutoZONE website."""""

Then if they don't sell it - then how did I buy it there?
Now you are an authority on AutoChina's inventory too? We are impressed!

Obviously you have no clue as to WHY I wanted the smaller gauge. I have plenty of welding cable I could have used, but I WANTED smaller. Sorry, you are not an authority on my projects. Normally I don't buy anything but chemicals from AutoChina - but they were the only ones open at that hour. I prefer to buy quality products - they don't sell them. Even with that cable, I had to re-end it because one of the terminals fell off when I pulled on it!


Where did he say he's using an electric fan? You can't go back and edit what HE said, or didn't say!

Depending on the electric fan, most don't draw much except when starting up. TRY ONE!

In all your wire gauge "knowledge" and charts, and your statements about "it will only carry xxx" comments etc. you missed an important factor. Nowhere did you say anything about lengths. Resistance is what limits the current carrying capability. Length determines resistance. You never mentioned resistance at all.

Obviously a 6" piece of 10 will carry more than a mile of #1.
 
#20 ·
"""""4 AWG is the smallest I found on the AutoZONE website."""""
Then if they don't sell it - then how did I buy it there?
Now you are an authority on AutoChina's inventory too? We are impressed!
I said it was the smallest I found here or on their website. I have no idea what they sell to people in Kalifornia.

Obviously you have no clue as to WHY I wanted the smaller gauge. I have plenty of welding cable I could have used, but I WANTED smaller. Sorry, you are not an authority on my projects. Normally I don't buy anything but chemicals from AutoChina - but they were the only ones open at that hour. I prefer to buy quality products - they don't sell them. Even with that cable, I had to re-end it because one of the terminals fell off when I pulled on it!
Nope, with the way your brain functions, I have no way of knowing WHY YOU WOULD DO ANY OF THE THINGS YOU DO. 18" is way to long for it to be a fuse link so that was out. So, give us the benefit of your "reasoning" such as it is and tell us why you would intentionally use undersize wire.

Where did he say he's using an electric fan? You can't go back and edit what HE said, or didn't say!
I gave you the link. CLICK ON IT!!!!!!

Depending on the electric fan, most don't draw much except when starting up. TRY ONE!
If you figure out how to click the link I gave, you'll see he has a Taurus fan. Read the rest of the thread, it's a known power hog. As far as your "TRY ONE!", I'll pass. I TRIED TWO, the same duals that came out of the donor Firebird that my TPI engine came out from. If I were to "TRY ONE!", as you suggest, I'd have the same problem he does with clearance between the pulleys and the radiator.

In all your wire gauge "knowledge" and charts, and your statements about "it will only carry xxx" comments etc. you missed an important factor. Nowhere did you say anything about lengths. Resistance is what limits the current carrying capability. Length determines resistance. You never mentioned resistance at all.
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Length has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the current carrying capacity.

The longer the wire, the more VOLTAGE DROP it produces. This is a function of the current being carried and the resistance of the wire. You don't understand basic electricity, READ UP ON IT!!!!!!!! You have confused the fact that you use a bigger extension cord to reduce voltage drop for high current power tools if the cord is long, say over 25'. It has nothing to do with the current carrying capacity of the wire gauge. Furthermore, I didn't think there was a need to discuss the voltage drop BECAUSE I DIDN'T EXPECT HIM TO USE ANYWHERE NEAR 25' OF WIRE.

Obviously a 6" piece of 10 will carry more than a mile of #1.
Remembering something Thor asked you, if I provide the aluminum ladder, will you measure the gauge size of a high voltage overhead line that runs for MILES (plural).

From your comments, I think your electrical knowledge is limited to changing your own flashlight batteries. You're in way over your head. Go play in the kiddie pool until you can swim with the adults.
 
#21 ·
Obviously a 6" piece of 10 will carry more than a mile of #1.
Had a guy in here about a week ago (more or less) that was having starting problems...
Load tested the starter solenoid and starter cable, but it was pretty obvious before that it was a battery terminal/battery cable problem...

So, instead of doing what I recommended, he purchased a discount store battery cable...
Still had the same problem, more or less.

Finally he gave up and brought it here again.
Took off the discount cable, tested it for connections, no resistance to speak of...
Load tested it, and it failed miserably.

Started stripping insulation, First off, it was supposed to be a 6 gauge wire, turned out to be about 9 gauge actual...
And at one point about three inches from the battery terminal, the wire was frayed down to two strands...

The guy kept saying that he 'Saved' $11 dollars over the cable we wanted to build for him...

Here is the kicker, the local 'Auto-Jerks' wouldn't take the cable back because we had removed parts of the insulation!
-----------------

Obviously a 6" piece of 10 will carry more than a mile of #1.
True!
Resistance builds over distance with DC current.
Doesn't matter how much voltage you put in, at distance you can't get any amperage out because internal resistance will have consumed it and expelled it as heat.

The reason Edison's power plants never took off is because you can't push DC current long distances.
Just over a mile from the generating station you will get nothing usable, and low voltage DC generators were EXPENSIVE to build and a nightmare to maintain!

AC current will transmit over hundreds of miles and the generators are much easier to build and much stronger designs...
------------------------

As to the original question, before the thread got 'taz-e-fied'...

The reason for an alternator not getting a good ground, or anything else for that matter...
Is easy!
You are tring to drive electrons through things that don't conduct electricity very well, or in some cases at all.

Paint, rust, mud, loose fasteners, steel, cast iron or aluminum are all horrible conductors of electricity.

Most jeeps have a 'Ground' wire that connects to the engine block or the alternator bracket.
This is a 'Median' location to save the cost of a proper ground wire to all systems.

Now, you have a copper wire...
(I hope! Some of you have steel woven straps!)
Connecting to a steel bracket or iron block or head via a rusty bolt...

This single undersize connection is supposed to supply 'Ground' to the largest consumer in the system, the starter.
How may steel to iron to aluminum connections via rusty bolts, through poorly fitting spacers and engine gaskets is there in that 'Circuit'?

Lets see, The rusty bolt that connects the wire to the head or bracket, in the case of the bracket, the painted steel bracket it's self, then through the paint again to a bolt to the cast iron head or rusty bolt to the oxide coated aluminum alternator housing, then to another rusty bolt to the voltage regulator & rectifier,
OR,
In the case of the starter, through that second coat of paint to the rusty bracket to head bolt, then through a cast iron head to the rusty and sealer coated head bolts,
Then to the cast iron engine block...
The head gasket will keep a direct head to block connection from happening...

Then through a rusty bolt to an oxydation coated aluminum bell housing, then through another rusty bolt to the aluminum starter frame, then through another bolt to the steel starter housing, then through another rusty starter bolt to the starter windings...

Anyway, you get the idea...

Run a dedicated, large gauge ground to the starter housing directly, since this is where the largest draw is going to happen...

Run a heavy wire (8 or 10 Ga.) to the alternator housing so the device that creates every electron your vehicle uses can function properly.

It's also a good idea to ground the engine it's self...
You have gauges that require an adequate ground to function properly.
Since the engine ground usually supplies the ground to both the primary and secondary sides of the ignition, it's a good thing for them also.

In addition, the front grill needs a dedicated ground for the front lights, electric fans, ect.

The rear needs a dedicated ground for the rear lights, trailer hookup, fuel tank sender, ect.

The dash needs a dedicated ground so your wipers, dash lights, radio & other accessories work correctly and to the best of their abilities.

Grounding the frame and drive line is a wonderful idea...
------------------

Guys argue this all the time, but the facts are NOT in dispute...

FACT.
The factory employs people to figure out how to use the least amount of materials and make the least amount of connections in order to 'save' money.

FACT.
What passes for 'Ground' in most vehicles means the engineers have decided what the absloute LEAST they can get by with and still have the vehicle live through the warranty period.

FACT.
The factory didn't use the best of anything.
And now those 'Good Enough' parts are 25 to 40 years out of warranty...

FACT.
If you have the knowledge, and you look around a little, you can do so much better with the replacement parts you use...

FACT.
If you were only interested in using the factory components, you wouldn't be looking for a better way to do things and wouldn't be here asking questions and (hopefully) learning something.
 
#22 ·
Doesn't matter how much voltage you put in, at distance you can't get any amperage out because internal resistance will have consumed it and expelled it as heat.
Wrong!!!!!!!! In a series circuit, resistance DOES NOT CONSUME CURRENT. The current is the same anywhere in the circuit. Each resistance has a VOLTAGE drop across it. Using that voltage drop times the current, we can get the wattage that it expels as heat.

The reason Edison's power plants never took off is because you can't push DC current long distances.
Just over a mile from the generating station you will get nothing usable, and low voltage DC generators were EXPENSIVE to build and a nightmare to maintain!
AC or DC makes no difference in your "PUSH".

AC current will transmit over hundreds of miles and the generators are much easier to build and much stronger designs...
You are confusing facts and doing your usual conclusion jumping.

You would have the same problems with AC or DC at the same voltage and current. With AC, however, you can transform the voltage up to a much higher level and then transform it down again. Power (wattage) is voltage x current. When you transform the voltage up, the amperage drops for the same wattage. This allows smaller transmission wire and results in a lower percentage of voltage drop. The voltage drop of course is the same for a given resistance and current but the percentage of the higher voltage is lower.

As to the original question, before the thread got 'taz-e-fied'...
As to the ORIGINAL question, it was asked and then answered by TiminMb. I moved on but your mensa membership wouldn't let you resist trying to show how smart you were but you FAILED by giving misinformation about wire size, how electrons flow, etc. You ran into someone with a much higher IQ, a lifetime of experience in the electrical field, a journeymans card and an electrical engineering degree. I knew what BS you were trying to pass of and I corrected your misinformation.

Both you and Rich looked like you might be players here years ago but since then you have overstepped you knowledge level and spread a bunch of BS. I know electrical, I've been doing it more years than you are old and have better experience and knowledge. You keep wanting to pretend to be smarter than you are by spreading your BS and I have to slap you down. It's also cost you your credibility. If you are spreading BS about this, can anyone trust you in anything you post.

If it were just you and I, I'd just walk off and have a good laugh at your expense but there is a large membership here, some of whom might buy into your bad advice and that could cause them a lot of problems.

Stick to what you know and try to be helpful with it. Instead you want to feed your ego and try to achieve king of the hill status by constant attacks on other. You think that if you attack others it makes you look better. Well, right know, you are looking ridiculous with your made up facts, misconceptions and just plain false statements. As GeeAea once put it, you just can't share the stage.

I ain't got time to play with you anymore for a while. My son and granddaughter are on their way over to spend some time in the pool again. See ya later.
 
#23 ·
Wow! He sure doesn't have a clue!

TAZ - look at the thread, JYG answered the guys question as to how to and where to run a ground wire to help out the alternator - and why.
I added a little to that suggesting a few more grounds elsewhere wouldn't hurt.

YOU are the one that proclaimed everyone is wrong with your bogus charts.

YOU are the one that got insulting.

YOU are the one that once again, you don't have a clue.

I hope the original question has been answered before all your nonsensical fuzz!

If you understood AC vs. DC in other than sexual terms, you'd understand why DC has more drop than AC. Clue - Does RMS mean anything to you?

Time to go back and TRY to impress your step grandkids with your electric toy trains. Do it while they are young, once they start to grow up even they won't be impressed with you.

The reason I bought the small cable is my concern, not yours - you'd never understand, but you'd make an issue of it just to be an idiot.
For the reason I bought it it's more than sufficient.

My point was you claimed they didn't sell it and other stores don't sell it! You even missed that little detail.
 
#24 ·
Rich, you need to learn to read and comprehend what you read, otherwise and in all seriousness, you are displaying the early signs of dementia. You get a completely different idea about what was posted and then when confronted with it, you claim somebody edited their post.

TAZ - look at the thread, JYG answered the guys question as to how to and where to run a ground wire to help out the alternator - and why.
I did look at this thread, I'd suggest you do the same.

Here is the original post with the question highlighted for you.
Swapping in a 94 4.0 motor into my CJ has taught me a lot. One of the last things I want to do with the motor is create a seperate ground for the stock alternator. Where on the alternator should I connect the ground wire and where should I run it to...the frame, engine mount, straight back to the negative terminal of the battery, where? Thanks for the help.
Here is TiminMb's post which is two posts above jyg's post:
I'd run it from a bolt on the body of the alternator right back to the negative terminal of the battery. I have a ground cable from the negative terminal to a bolt through the firewall where I have a second cable to the dash (metal dash on a cj). It might be overkill, but who could fault someone having separate grounds to the block, grill, firewall, dash, starter solenoid, alternator? If you have the time, go for it. A common brass terminal on the firewall might be a good place to branch out from for smaller secondary grounds, and I'd run a heavy separate one to the block and alternator.
Asked and answered. The original post didn't ask about wire size or anything else. Also notice that there are no edit notes at the bottom of these posts. How can you try to spin something that's there for the whole world to see?

jyg then came along and plagiarized CJDave's usual comment about grounds with:

We've been preaching this for years!

Here is the scoop,
Electrically speaking,
You are driving several jeeps in very close formation, but none of them actually connected...
Here is a typical CJDave post about driving four Jeeps not grounded together.

Then jyg got into voluntarily recommending wire size that was never asked about but his recommendations were for too small wire sizes. That's where I got involved.

I added a little to that suggesting a few more grounds elsewhere wouldn't hurt.
You simply restated what had already been said with a "me too' post.

YOU are the one that proclaimed everyone is wrong with your bogus charts.
What's bogus about them? Support your claim.

If you understood AC vs. DC in other than sexual terms, you'd understand why DC has more drop than AC. Clue - Does RMS mean anything to you?
What, is Ohm's law different for AC than it is for DC? Which one does E=IR apply too? Yes, I know what RMS is but you obviously don't since you are trying to apply it here. What does it have to do with DC having more drop than AC? Wait, before you answer, I'm still waiting on an explanation of a do-nothing diode in jyg's stealth ignition module, the one Dale pointed out that had no purpose and you argued about.

Time to go back and TRY to impress your step grandkids with your electric toy trains. Do it while they are young, once they start to grow up even they won't be impressed with you.
Where did you get the idea they are step grandkids? One is, a boy from a former marriage but the granddaughter is the daughter of my son or are you trying to imply something else? That there is something illegitimate about her? NOW, I'M INSULTED AND I EXPECT NOTHING LESS THAN A FULL AND IMMEDIATE APOLOGY FOR YOUR STATEMENT.

The reason I bought the small cable is my concern, not yours - you'd never understand, but you'd make an issue of it just to be an idiot.
For the reason I bought it it's more than sufficient.

My point was you claimed they didn't sell it and other stores don't sell it! You even missed that little detail.
I never said they didn't sell them. What I said was I'd never seen them here. No edit note at the bottom of this post either.
Must be a California thing, more greenie stuff. Here, I've never seen battery cables smaller than 4 AWG at AutoZONE or ADVANCED Auto, I can always find 2 AWG and sometimes 1/0. Doing a quick check, 4 AWG is the smallest I found on the AutoZONE website. If I were going to the trouble to build my own cables, they'd be 2/0.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Now, If our moderators were awake, and taz was insulting, he should be cooling off somewhere else...
--------------

Anyway, RMS is the correct answer...

taz is stuck on high frequency AC wiring for some reason, and I don't know why....
He's been stuck on the same broken record for every conversation we've had about wire size and conductivity.
Not only is he spouting High Frequency AC, but he's often quoting theoretical information that created a stir a while back, and has since been disproved.
I followed the same theories about 'Holes', 'Anti-Electrons', Shell Coatings & Castings, ect, but it turned out to be false...
So I guess he's shot on both counts...

The only part of all that mess that hasn't been disproven is the 'Holes' theory...

Basic Physics requires a seprate and equal reaction for every action.
So if an electron moves in one direction, then something has to go back the other way...

That's where the 'Anti-Electron' or 'Hole' idea came from...
And I agree that Something has to be moving to compensate for the electrons flow in one direction... I'm just not equipped to magnify down to a sub molecular level to give a definitive answer.
The difference between me and taz is, I know that I don't have the answer and I'm not likely to come up with definitave proof anytime soon!

All the other crap about Shell coatings, casting shells, ect. was disproven, but that doesn't stop a good idea from being used long after it's death by guys that didn't bother to read 'Page 2'...

I especially liked his version of an DC circuit turning on and off when trailride or what ever his user name was, was on his soap box...
tas actually called a PULSING DC circuit an AC circuit!
That pretty much clinched it for me that he didn't understand the difference between AC and DC, (or wiring in general).

I have taz on 'Ignore' now, so all I see of his posts is what you guys comment on and quote,
(STOP IT! YOU are feeding the web troll!).

Life is so much nicer with the 'Ignore' button working!
You would be better off telling anyone wanting correct information to 'Ignore' taz so the information and/or debate can continue with correct information in a civil format.
--------------------

Besides, it's been my experience that AC guys don't understand DC...
And DC guys don't understand AC.
I see guys that design Circuits all day long in DC that can quote text book pages on AC, but will still screw it up...
Same in reverse with guys that work in AC all the time.

Remember, we've had at least three self proclaimed 'Experts', (claiming to be "Electrical Engineers" in power plants no less!), that didn't know how a diode worked or what it did, and raised bloody hell with me when I suggested using one instead of a resistor for the alternator connection...
(one of those guys turned out to be a janitor/maintenance man at a switching sub station out west when some of you finally met him in person)

Now the ideas we cook up here are being published in the magazines... (Thieving peterson group...:mad: )
Ignition upgrades, alternator upgrades, ect.
Even John Strinks "Stealth HEI" has made the magazines!
-------------------------

I urge everyone to find a copy of the Brown & Sharp chart for copper conductors, and actually LEARN some correct PROVEN information about DC wiring.
Brown & Sharp scale is still the standard that all DC guys use, although it usually called Conductor vs. Amperage scale or something stupid like that...

If you all can't find it, I'll copy it and give it a home on my web site...
------------------

Anyway, the correct answer is Resistance.
Do a resistance test between your alternator case and your battery negative post. Note the reading.

Start the vehicle and do the same test.
If your reading is higher (and it will be),
YOU NEED A DEDICATED GROUND.

And as for the posted quote, "...Electrons Don't Have A Road Map..."

You are SO WRONG I don't even know where to begin!
Why do you think we put conductors on circuit boards?
So the electrons have a road map!

Why do you think we use switches and resistors?
So we can give electrons an 'Off Ramp' and 'Speed Bumps'!

Electrons have a road map, it's the first law of electricity, and it's just like ours!
"Current will take the path of least resistance."

They take the Interstate first for faster and less restricted travel,
When the interstate is closed or congested, they will start looking for alternative routes of conveyance...

Anyone with a tail light ground problem knows what happens with the primary 'freeway' is blocked...
Those little electrons get out the road map and start out on roads WE never intended them to be on!!!
 
#27 ·
Now, If our moderators were awake, and taz was insulting, he should be cooling off somewhere else...
Actually, it was me that was insulted but I agree, if our moderators were awake, Rich should be cooling off somewhere else.

Anyway, RMS is the correct answer...
What's it the answer to and how does it apply to the discussion here?

taz is stuck on high frequency AC wiring for some reason, and I don't know why....
60 Hz is high frequency?

Not only is he spouting High Frequency AC, but he's often quoting theoretical information that created a stir a while back, and has since been disproved.
What theory was that? Substantiate your claims. You never do, you also act like a politician, throwing out comments without clarification or substantiation. Well, the way I hear it, you are a shameless extrovert, you once dated a thespian who performed these acts for paying customers, your brother is a **** sapien, and he has a huge collection of phonographic magazines.

.
The only part of all that mess that hasn't been disproven is the 'Holes' theory...

Basic Physics requires a seprate and equal reaction for every action.
So if an electron moves in one direction, then something has to go back the other way...
You kinda mangled Newton's third law: law of reciprocal actions. All forces occur in pairs, and these two forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction, commonly paraphrased as: For every action force there is an equal, but opposite, reaction force. Opposite, not separate.Wikipedia reference for ya.

Your problem with applying that to the hole theory is that holes have no mass so there can be no counteracting force.

That's where the 'Anti-Electron' or 'Hole' idea came from...
And I agree that Something has to be moving to compensate for the electrons flow in one direction...
But a hole is not something, it's nothing

I especially liked his version of an DC circuit turning on and off when trailride or what ever his user name was, was on his soap box...
tas actually called a PULSING DC circuit an AC circuit!
That pretty much clinched it for me that he didn't understand the difference between AC and DC, (or wiring in general).
Besides, it's been my experience that AC guys don't understand DC...
And DC guys don't understand AC.
I see guys that design Circuits all day long in DC that can quote text book pages on AC, but will still screw it up...
Same in reverse with guys that work in AC all the time.
Nope, wasn't AC or DC, the result was AC waveform(s) riding on top of DC, something you failed to grasp. It's quite common, some products even make use of it. One I am familiar with is used in control of model railroad engines. They ride the signal on top of the DC power. You would call the signal pulsating DC because it is a series of square waves, but I know that it is nothing more than a bunch of AC waveform harmonics summed together. I can even filter out the different AC harmonic waveforms for you.

Besides, it's been my experience that AC guys don't understand DC...
And DC guys don't understand AC.
I see guys that design Circuits all day long in DC that can quote text book pages on AC, but will still screw it up...
Same in reverse with guys that work in AC all the time.
Serve an apprenticeship part on the railroad and part for the US Air Force, work as an electrician for the, railroad, USAF and auto plants, then get an electrical engineering degree, you won't have any problem understanding both and how you can have both on a single conductor at the same time.

Anyway, the correct answer is Resistance.
Do a resistance test between your alternator case and your battery negative post. Note the reading.

Start the vehicle and do the same test.
If your reading is higher (and it will be),
YOU NEED A DEDICATED GROUND.
Resistance may well be the answer but what question is it the answer to?

So what did you think you were doing reading resistance with your meter with the engine not running and then running? Did you think you were reading more resistance? WRONG!!!! Your meter uses a battery to provide current through the resistance. The voltage drop across the leads is compared to the voltage drop across an internal resistance. When you started the engine, the alternator provided a second current source through the resistance, adding to or detracting from the current provided by the meter battery, depending on whether the meter leads were in the same polarization as the alternator or opposite to it. This second current produced a change in the voltage across the meter leads. The meter is only accurate for measuring resistance if it is the only source of current across the resistor, this caused an erroneous reading by your meter.

And as for the posted quote, "...Electrons Don't Have A Road Map..."

You are SO WRONG I don't even know where to begin!
Why do you think we put conductors on circuit boards?
So the electrons have a road map!
That's the roads, not the map.

Electrons have a road map, it's the first law of electricity, and it's just like ours!
"Current will take the path of least resistance."
I mentioned exactly that in the same sentence Rich snipped his quote from.
Wrong, electrons don't have road maps and will go the route of lowest resistance.
So, I was wondering how you got them to turn left into the battery just to come right back out again. Don't sound like the path of least resistance to me.
 
#26 ·
WHERE IS THAT APOLOGY, RICH?

You posted here an hour and a half ago but no apology. I'm still waiting.

Your actions were inexcusable to make personal attacks on members of my family.

You CLAIM to hate politicians and spout of about two terms, one in office and jail but you certainly like to use their tactics when you get yourself cornered. You throw out asinine comments to muddy the waters with no explanations and make personal attacks on members and/or their families.

WHERE IS THAT APOLOGY, RICH?
 
#33 ·
For what you want from me - please hold your breath!
That's what I thought your reply would be.

I asked you to support your claim that the wire size current charts were bogus. They ain't, you can't answer.

I asked you if Ohm's law is different for AC than it is for DC. It ain't, you can't answer.

I asked you what the RMS voltage value has to do with DC having more drop than AC. It don't, you can't answer.

I asked you to explain your argument for that do-nothing diode in jyg's stealth ignition module having some purpose. It has none, you can't answer.

I asked you for an apology for your malicious act of bringing my family into this thread and being wrong about it, either intentionally or otherwise.

I didn't think you would apologize. I'd already put you in the same category with people of your type like Hilary and Rosie O'Donnell , to other people that aren't man enough to apologize either. Their both liberals like you too and neither one of them is very bright either.

Quit spouting you BS on this board trying to be somebody and you'll get no trouble from me.
 
#29 ·
WOW, you guys at it again?
I must admit that everytime this happens I learn something but I also have to chuckle :smirk:
A lot of knowledge in the banter, we just need to weed it out.

I would love to be there when you guys finally get together and start discussing oh, say, soft top zippers. Leve would probably like to also
Well maybe not.;)
Anyway, thanks for ground wire 101, I really did learn something
 
#31 ·
I'm calm. I took my pill and I have taz on ignore, so I'm fine as frog hair...

Soft top zippers!
Wish you could get them in brass so they don't corrode up or like the plastic ones loose teeth when they get a couple of years on them!

I've abandoned soft tops, I have a bikini top and a hard top or tarp for winter...
 
#35 · (Edited)
"""""I asked you to support your claim that the wire size current charts were bogus. They ain’t, you can’t answer."""""
I pointed out that the charts don't take in consideration for length. You said they show limits as to possible current carrying capability - but you ducked the question of for "how far."

Your chart says at least you said it does:
"""""10ga is good for 30 amps"""""

"""""I said 6 or he might get by with 8 for an 85 amp alternator."""""
OVERKILL! Especially for the ground.

"""""I asked you if Ohm’s law is different for AC than it is for DC. It ain’t, you can’t answer."""""
You answered it yourself, if you want to argue with yourself then go ahead!


"""""I asked you what the RMS voltage value has to do with DC having more drop than AC. It don’t, you can’t answer."""""

Your statement that DC carries long distances better with less loss than AC - pertaining to the comments about Edison - you said because it's easier to step up the voltage using transformers with AC, - that's one reason - you were correct there, But you avoided the fact that AC has less line loss than DC. I said it was because of RMS. If you actually knew anything about electricity, you would have known about RMS and how it affects heat losses.
Does every little thing have to be spelled out in detail to you? You say you are an electric train expert, doesn't your toy train manual cover that? Is Lionel still in business?

Notice on the thread JYG just posted that explains RMS. Notice at the bottom it talks about heating of a resistive value to measure actual RMS values.

I asked you why the ground to the alternator has more current than the alternator's output and requires a much heavier wire than the standard 10 GA almost all carmakers use. You ducked the question - as usual. By your information there should be millions of cars stuck all over the world with dead batteries!


"""""I asked you to explain your argument for that do-nothing diode in jyg’s stealth ignition module having some purpose. It has none, you can’t answer."""""
That was an entirely different thread - ancient history - are you still fretting over that? You certainly need to get a life!

Since JYG wasn't going to explain it to someone like you, I was not going to either.



"""""I asked you for an apology for your malicious act of bringing my family into this thread and being wrong about it, either intentionally or otherwise."""""

YOU are the one that brought in your family in an attempt to hide behind them, hoping to pretend you are "normal" and not in your grandmother's basement. I never said anything about your "family" untill you did.

An apology -- I told you I would, just hold your breath till I do!
 
#42 · (Edited)
I pointed out that the charts don't take in consideration for length. You said they show limits as to possible current carrying capability - but you ducked the question of for "how far."
They are ampacity charts, length has nothing to do with the amount of current a conductor will carry. It will still carry the same current if you wrap it around the world 27,000 times. Why don't you start now and try it?

I didn't duck your question, I answered it 2 pages ago. Just because you didn't read it, didn't understand it or didn't like the answer, doesn't mean I didn't answer it.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Length has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the current carrying capacity.

The longer the wire, the more VOLTAGE DROP it produces. This is a function of the current being carried and the resistance of the wire. You don't understand basic electricity, READ UP ON IT!!!!!!!! You have confused the fact that you use a bigger extension cord to reduce voltage drop for high current power tools if the cord is long, say over 25'. It has nothing to do with the current carrying capacity of the wire gauge. Furthermore, I didn't think there was a need to discuss the voltage drop BECAUSE I DIDN'T EXPECT HIM TO USE ANYWHERE NEAR 25' OF WIRE.
"""""I said 6 or he might get by with 8 for an 85 amp alternator."""""
OVERKILL! Especially for the ground.
Actually, the 6 or 8 I recommended may not be big enough. Parallel conductors are always a problem if one or more fail. If you were to loose the contact between the ground cable from the battery and the starter, the starter current would flow through the parallel conductor provided for the alternator, wire goes poof. It could be protected with a fuse link, but since it's a parallel conductor, you might never know that the fuse link blew and could run around for years with a piece of wire under your hood not doing anything.

If you actually knew anything about electricity, you would have known about RMS and how it affects heat losses.
RMS is NOT REAL!!!!!!!! RMS can't have any affect on anything!!!!!!! It's just a mathematical conversion like logarithms. Whether the length of a board is measured in feet, meters or parsecs, the length does not change.

RMS is a unit that makes calculating the average power using the voltage and resistance easier. There's RMS value for current too, it ain't real either. Multiply the RMS voltage by the RMS current, in a resistive circuit, and you get a value for average power. It's just a calculated value, it doesn't change anything in the real world.

Notice on the thread JYG just posted that explains RMS. Notice at the bottom it talks about heating of a resistive value to measure actual RMS values.
So, what's your point, assuming you had one other than to just throw some comment out there to muddy the waters?

If your purpose is to toss about electrical terms to make yourself look intelligent, you have failed. I was once in a bar when a punk near me was tossing about the term E equals m c squared in an attempt to feel big. I asked him if that wasn't Einstein's theory of relativity equation. It ain't but he didn't know that so he answered that it was. I asked him about the "m", wasn't that mass or something, he nodded yes. I asked him about "c" wasn't that the speed of light, again he nodded. I asked him about "E", wasn't that energy, he kept nodding. Then I asked him what it was measured in.
 
#36 ·
Rrich, time to get outta there before you get hurt. This is nowhere for a child to be in the middle of such heavy information flying around. You are not contributing, just being inflammatory.

Taz and Jyg, this is really interesting, though over my head. If I could make a suggestion: It looks from this side he said/he said; could we get more links supporting your positions instead of quoting each other?
 
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