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Kutyafal: Welder Comments

4K views 18 replies 5 participants last post by  ExtinctJeep 
G
#1 ·
I'm about to start the process of considering beginning to prepare for commencing the planning of future construction of a weldernator. (Any hesitance there? Nah...). I was just wondering how your's is working, and if you had any "woulda done it differently" comments.

I Jeep, therefore I am.
 
#2 ·
There are many ways to go about the details but overall it works fine.
There two issues I found:
- As an oversight on my part when mounting the external rectifier using the contact screws on one end and no additional support, it vibrated apart and was destroyed after running a "fun" trail on the last run. Fortunately, I had another one and this time I've bolted it through using the factory bolt holes and made a bracket for it that secures the whole thing against shakage! /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif It was a very particular problem to my installation that was easily fixed (should have been the first time) and I learned from it.

- Secondly, it could use a double belt drive instead of the single belt to avoid slippage. It might be that now it slips a little because the belt is already worn from the slippage prior I fabbed the alternator mounting bracket tensioner. A new belt is $8 and I'll see if it holds up now that I can tension it properly. If not I'll have to go to a dual belt setup. This will involve making (I doubt I can buy one) a custom combo pulley (serpentine/V/V) to replace the current combo (serp/V) on the alternator and getting a dual V for the weldernator. This is again due to the particular arangement I chose to do - ie. not to do a single alt. system ala PPW using a bigger alt. in place of the original alt. for welding.

The single alternator system is less complex from the mounting and driving point of view but it's more complex from the electric point of view. For a single alt. system you'll still need a more powerful external rectifier as well as a way to change the charging circuitry with a flip of the switch. You'll need to be able to disconnect the regulator from the charging circuit and it's best done by using an external regulator as well. This is how the PPW system is done hence the complex control box. It is a more reliable system from the driving and mounting stand point but you have to know what you're doing electrically and find the right components too.

For me the first method was good enough and less complicated. Also, most likely if you don't use as powerful as alternator as I did you'll not have as much of a load on it while welding reducing the slippage problem. This will certainly do for me for a while and if I keep breaking stuff at an alarming rate and get a winch I might go with the more complex single setup.

Just for thought though, you can make my setup do all the extra goodies that the PPW unit does like booster charging while winching by wiring it into the chargin circuit with a switch and some resistors to give about 20V constant boost to the batteries or install a 110V outlet to power electric tools or lamps. I just didn't bother with all this so far.

I hope this raises more questions than it answers after all that's what tinkering is all about. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif


'91 YJ w/stuff, http://members.home.net/t.molnar
 
#3 ·
>>SNIP
Just for thought though, you can make my setup do all the extra goodies that the PPW unit does like booster charging while winching by wiring it into the chargin circuit with a switch and some resistors to give about 20V constant boost to the batteries<<<

Now that sounds worthwhile. I have had my weldinator up for a while now, and am very pleased by it's performance. (might change the belt arrangement to run off the P/S pully, though)



Any more details on how to accomplish this? Since the weldinator puts out volts proportional to RPM's, how could a fixed resistor provide for a constant 20 VDC output?


Bob in Ma.
 
#4 ·
To correct myself the simplest way is to use a second switchable regulator connected to the weldernator. Even if the voltage is the same 14+ volts as coming from the original unit the amps will add up between the two alternators and that's what you really want. If you look at a regular battery charger it switches the amps also and not the voltage like a slow 2A manual charge or a 10A fast charge. Simply connecting the output of the two regulated alternators in parallel will add up whatever amps each is producing. Does that make sense?
Like I always say, I'm not an expert but I did stay at the Holiday Inn... /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif


'91 YJ w/stuff, http://members.home.net/t.molnar
 
G
#6 ·
Where would one get an external voltage regulator to follow your plan, Kutyafal? I know some cars came with them...but anyone know which, or how to wire one to use it as a backup as he suggests?


I Jeep, therefore I am.
 
G
#7 ·
As I take it, you would have 2 different setups...One way, alt output is hooked to regulator and battery...and charge to excite alternator comes from regulator. The second way, alternator is hooked up to welding cable, disconnected from battery, and excite charge is constant 12v. Is that right?

Once again, where to find an external regulator and how would one wire it?


I Jeep, therefore I am.
 
#8 ·
I hate to sound like a broken record, but the Leece-Neville alternator has...
1. Adjustable Voltage Regulator Installed Externally On The Alternator Case. 6 Volts DC to 38 Volts DC.

2. Full Time Working Amperages Up To 160 Amps On The Garden Variety Leece-Neville Units, Up To 300 Amps Full Time Output On Some Of The Tricky Special Order Units. Most 'High Output' alternators are rated for 'PEAK' output, not working amperage.

3. Separate connections for Positive & Negative.

4. Insulated Case (A Very Good Idea For A Welder!!!) That Keeps welding voltages out of the primary electrical system. (anyone here have radios or other sensitive electrical equipment?)

5. Sealed Roller Bearings Front & Rear, Very Large Heat Sinks, and Over Sized Stators & Rotors.
Originally meant for industrial trucks, locomotives, bulldozers and the like, these are built to take a beating.

6. Enough Mounting Ears to accommodate nearly anywhere you want to put it.

7. Compact Size. Not much larger than the Delco Or Motorcraft alternators that Jeep used on '90 and older Jeeps, and will normally bolt right into the stock brackets.
-------------------------

Another couple of thoughts...

1. In the '70's and early '80's Ford used a second alternator on the 'Power Everything' cars, (IE: T-Birds, Loaded LTD's, Lincoln's, Ect.)
That second alternator was an UN REGULATED DC ALTERNATOR PRODUCING UP TO 200 Volts.
(Used for window defrosters and instant heat in the car)
It can be identified in the bone yards by the short metal conduit coming 90 degrees out of the back of the alternator, and the three large gauge wires coming out of it. (Normal alternators have terminal connections, and no wires coming out of them.
These alternators can be used directly for welding, no modification necessary, are internally rectified, are case isolated, are cheap in the bone yards, and I made two or three in the late '70's that are still working to this day...

2. Plain Old Ford alternators can be used, (they are normally low amperage), but the do offer the plus of external voltage regulator, and the ability to wire directly to the field terminal.
I haven't had much luck with the regular Ford alternator, but it may just be the way I'm doing it.

3. Chrysler made a 'Minnow Bucket' alternator for several years that is externally regulated.
(Minnow Bucket because they have a large, rounded case that is slotted to dissipate heat and reduce weight.)
Look for alternators that came off of Taxi Cabs, Large Farm Trucks, Ect. Most of the time the amperage in stamped or etched into the case somewhere.
I have found these alternators are plentiful, cheap, easy to wire, (Full 12Volts to the Field terminal while welding, Wired through the External Voltage Regulator for standard 12Volt duty).
If you can find the Farm Truck/ Industrial Engine/ Taxi Cab version of the alternator, it will be a 120 Amp unit, have large bushing type 'bearings', and have relatively large heat sinks on the rectifier.

So many cats, so few recipes...
 
G
#9 ·
TR,
I'm guessing a big truck boneyard is the place to look for the Leece-Neville?

In re: either the Leece or the 2nd ford alternator, have ye any wiring suggestions? I'm guessing the ford has 12v in, power out, ground out??? And the leece, what of it? How would one wire it? Do you think there'd be a way to make the 2nd ford alternator setup into a externally regulated alternator for double duty? And back to the leece, how does one adjust the voltage output?


I Jeep, therefore I am.
 
#10 ·
Farm, TR had some good points. I also have some links to some good reading at the end of my write-up on my site that will explain the different wirings and connections. Some of the lower amp Delcos are actually have "Y" wired that can be rewired to a "delta" configuration giving you more voltage for welding.
You don't need an adjustable regulator for the chargin setup. By connecting the two alts. in paralell the charging volts remain the same and the amps add up.
The voltage output is controlled by the hand throttle on my setup and I have the RPMs (mentally) marked for the different rods I use.
Wiring is simple. Get a good ground to the case and full 12 volts to the rotor field connector. You can take the alt. apart to see exactly what brush is going to the rotor (this is the field) and where it is connected. This circuit should be insulated from the case internally.


'91 YJ w/stuff, http://members.home.net/t.molnar
 
G
#11 ·
Yeah, I understand the basic welder wiring...I've read all the online welder writeups...

It's just that I'm not so familiar with the voltage regulator and how it works/is wired. That's the info I'm now lookin' for...

I Jeep, therefore I am.
 
G
#12 ·
Yeah, I understand the basic welder wiring...I've read all the online welder writeups...

It's just that I'm not so familiar with the voltage regulator and how it works/is wired. That's the info I'm now lookin' for...

I Jeep, therefore I am.
 
#14 ·
I saw that you can still buy a copy of "The Boy Electrician" on one of the web sites listed.

I was given a copy of "The Boy Electrician" bought at a yard sale when I was about 6 or 7 years old, and I still reference it today!! Love that book!
"The Boy Electrician" a copy of the 'Electronics Dictionary' by Radio Shack, and a digital multi-meter is 90% of what a guy needs to do most anything in automotive electronics...
-----------------

My reference to 'Full Field' in my previous post was no fluke.
By 'Full Field', I mean a full 12 Volts to the Field terminal. It will make any of the alternators put out a maximum current.
Make sure your ground is to the alternator case, and not the battery when you are trying to weld! This is where an insulated, or isolated case comes in handy, something that almost no automotive alternator has, and only a few of the industrial alternators have...

The trick is not in how to get them to put out, but finding an alternator with a large enough Rectifier (converts the AC voltage into DC voltage) bridge to withstand the dead short of welding.
The 'Minnow Bucket' Chrysler industrial alternators have a pretty healthy rectifier bridge, and they have the larger windings on the rotor and stator.
The Delco 'SI' series have a reasonable rectifier bridge, that may be why they are so popular, but the output is limited by the physical size of the alternator case.
----------------

As for the Leece-Neville, the adjustment for the voltage in a 'screw' on the voltage regulator, under a rubber or plastic plug. All it takes to adjust voltage is turning the 'screw'.
If you wanted to go full field with a Leece-Neville for welding, all you would have to do is attach a 12 volt positive wire to the lead for the field circuit.
I would recommend disconnecting the voltage regulator first, but that is easy, since Leece-Neville saw fit to attach the voltage regulator to the outside, top of the alternator case, and is easily removed by loosening two to four screws, depending on the model of alternator.

So many cats, so few recipes...
 
#15 ·
Hey TR,

Good to have your input back.

That said, I looked around the net tonight for a Leece-Neville and the cheapest I could find was $155 plus a $180 core charge! What would I look in as far as junk for one of these units? ...or will I have to suck it up and fork it over for the real power?

Thanks,
Fritz

Jeep...need I say more?
 
#16 ·
The problem with industrial starters and alternators (along with a lot of other component piece cores) is that most of the older ones are being shipped to Central and South America as fast as the salvagers can locate them.
BIG market for the older stuff down south...

Check out big truck shops, especially the local run industrial fleets, like coal, rock, dirt and asphalt haulers.
Most of them have older trucks, usually one or two wrecked or junked out, and sometimes they even have cores lying around they aren't using anymore.

You may also try some of the larger heavy diesel (truck, bulldozer) supply houses.
A few years back, I bought a skid of 160 Amp Leece-Neville alternators for $69 each, outright, no core charge.
(If I run into another deal like that again, I'll offer them for sale on the BBS...)

If you can't find a core, I'm sure I have a few around here still, and you won't have to mortgage the house to get one...

Another tip is to look for any old trucks broken down in some ones yard, lots of times they will sell parts off them real cheap. Lots of good, heavy duty parts on one of them...
(Electrical, Air Fittings, Heavy Duty Brackets, Ect.)

So many cats, so few recipes...
 
#17 ·
Okay, so I was cruising ebay and found an alternator for a 65-69 Ford that looked for all the world like a Leece-Neville -- from the back. It had the + / - terminals and the centralized regulator, but there was no indication as to it output. It also looked awefully thin (front to back) without much beathing space. This wasn't a Leece-Neville, was it?

I'll look into your suggestions. if you run across any deals let me know. The Junkyards here are just plain worthless. If there is value in something, they will ream you for it and the idea of high demand in SA pretty much gaurantees that they won't have any cheap.

Thanks again TR,
Fritz

Jeep...need I say more?
 
#18 ·
I live right in the middle of coal strip mine country and farming community, so I'm surrounded by older trucks and their suppliers.
I'll keep an eye out for you.
Send me a private message with you Telephone # and how much you are wanting to spend, and I'll find you one....

PS, the alternator you are looking at on E-Bay is the first generation of Ford alternator.
It's externally regulated, weak (they were like 35 or 45 amps) and have the worst diodes of any of the alternators that Ford used in the Rectifier.
I'd steer clear of it if I were you, but that's just my opinion.

So many cats, so few recipes...
 
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