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Lets here some opinions on rear axles

1K views 33 replies 6 participants last post by  **DONOTDELETE** 
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#1 ·
Which axle do you think is the best for the rear axle a Dana 44 or Dana 60? Here is the criteria for the Jeep. A small block V8 (350 or 360) 35/12.5 MT tires, granny tranny (NP435 T18 or NV 4500), locker. The vehicle will be used for hard to serious rock crawling. The axle will need to be 58-63 inches wide so it will be out of a fullsize Jeep something. Cost is a factor. So what axle? Thanks.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
WALSTIB/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif
 
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G
#3 ·
Just one question. What about a GM 14 bolt? In my opinion it is stronger then a Dana 60, and you can pick them up for under 2 bills. I am running a D44 right now. With 35 inch tires I don't think it is strong enough. No major problems yet, but it is just a matter of time. If I was staying with a 5 lug bolt pattern I guess the only choice is a D60. Just my opinion, but go with 8 lug and solve your axle breakage problems before they begin.

Thanks Ray

 
G
#5 ·
First 14 bolt is wider than my criteria and I don't want to spend the money to narrow them. Second the 14 bolt hangs down almost an inch more than a 60 which hangs down 3/4 inch of more than a 44. To run the 14 I would need 38" to compensate and I don't think anything over 35" is comfortable for on road driving. If I was building a trail only vehicle with 44" tires I would consider the 14 but not for this Jeep.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
WALSTIB/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif
 
G
#6 ·
tim,
after many hours of banging my head against the wall i have come to the conclusion that i want to build my jeep right. thats why i am going with the dana 60. some people say its overkill for a jeep. but with what we both plan on doing, why would we want anything else?

81 cj-7,360,SOA,35's,locked rear,fullcage
 
G
#7 ·
I posted this question after talking with you about using a Dana 60 and Chris Brown using custom 63"(?) Dana 44s front and rear. Granted he is using a full floating warn kit in the rear but it got me wondering what people around the country prefer. I still hate the idea of losing 3/4 inch ground clearance and added more weigth to the Jeep with the 60 but it is probably going to be a matter of what I can get and how stupid I feel like being. Does anyone have anything good to say about a Dana 44 rear with 35" tires and a V8? Thanks.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
WALSTIB/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif
 
G
#8 ·
hey,
i understand, it would be interesting to see other peoples ideas on the 44. browns jeep is certianly on way to do it but i couldnt spend that much money on the rear axle alone. i just was bored, thought i would reply to your post. i have definatly made up my mind on the 60...it would be interesting to see how a dna 44 holds under a v8, i have heard the do pretty good but if ya got a heavy foot you should go with the 60...somebody was telling me, i think it was that one big tall guy in the club that i should look into a 12 bolt rear..but i dunno, is there any info on the 12?

81 cj-7,360,SOA,35's,locked rear,fullcage
 
G
#9 ·
12 bolt is a C-crap i mean clip axle. From what I hear it is about the strength of a Dana 44 (might be slightly stronger) but if you break an axle kiss your wheel goodbye. You can buy a C-clip eliminator kit but that is more money. A lot of the Chevy guys that I have talked to are swapping them out for 14 bolt full floating axles. If it was Jeff that was telling you about the 12 bolt he is a little biased since he owns a Blazer.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
WALSTIB/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif
 
G
#10 ·
Dont think 44 wont hold up, Here at home we put them to the test weekly, sure there,s a few that run 60,s but if you are geared and locked up right i wouldn,t worry. I am running 39.5 swampers with 44 scout rear, wagoneer 44 front been through helllllll and back, LIKE A TIMEX. EACH IS THERE OWN BUT 44 IS IS TOUGH

BRADCO JEEPS
 
#11 ·
The Ford 8.8 is considerably stronger than a D44, smaller than a D60 only about an 1" lower than a D35 and with disc brakes it is a semi floating configuration. And the wheel would not be lost if a C clip failed. 60 1/2" wide you would need to have the hubs redrilled to accept 5 on 5 1/2 or have moser supply a set of high strength. Im kinda biased because I run one on my YJ, but they are a good axles with a beefy pinion yoke. Just another idea to toss around.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
If at first you dont succeed, your replacement will try and try again.
 
#12 ·
Something you didn't mention that should be crutial to the thought process is the gearing. The lower the gearing the less contact the pinion gear has with the ring gear and the more prone to breakage there is. If you're running 4.56 or higher, the D44 should do, if 4.88's and under, definitely go with the D60. In my opinion, for what you're looking to do, get the D60 and forget it. Sure, the D44 might hold up, then again, it might not, depending on how radical you get. The D60 should definitely do the trick.

JEEPN
'81 CJ-8 Scrambled!
GM151/SM465/NP205 twinstick/7"Lift/33"TSL's/IHC D44's 4.10's Lock'd
 
G
#13 ·
Good point on the 14 bolt. The only reason I mentioned it is because I can not find a D60 around here for a decent price. Yes the D44 is very strong(I am running one behind a 401), but if I had to do it over I would go stronger. Being to strong is kinda like having to much horsepower.

Thanks Ray

 
G
#14 ·
Go with a 60 and you WILL not regret it, go with a 44 and you MIGHT not regret it. Dana 60 semi floaters are practically a dime a dozen out of Ford Econoline 250 vans (I must have seen a hundred of them while I was hunting for my FF 60). I'm not sure of the width though, but I believe they are slightly narrower than full size truck axles. I've got to much "sweat equity" in my (narrowed) 60 full floater to switch horses now, but if I had it all to do over again I'd go with an E-250 Dana 60. They might be a little wide full width, but if so they are WAAAAAAAY easier to narrow than a full floater.

P.S. check out my post "moab ate my Dana 44". This was with 33's

My other car is a BULLDOZER
 
G
#15 ·
The 8.8 is a c-clip just like the 12-bolt, both of which have slightly better Ring&Pinions than 44's, but about equal axle strength. This is kind of a tough one for me. 35" radials aren't all that radical, so I'm leaning toward saying "44". But, since you're starting from scratch, and will likely have to spend some $$$ on gears & lockers, a 60 done right - while overkill for 35" radials IMO - could last a long time, even after you decide 35's aren't big enough somewhere down the road. If you had a 44 now, I'd tell you to keep it & wouldn't hesitate to say so. But, since you're starting from scratch (and you did say extreme rock crawling), it might make sense just to start with a 60 - and I think a 5 on 5.5" semi-floater is the way I'd go.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing
 
#16 ·
/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif That term: "Semi Floater" really gets me. I see it all the time in magazine articles and on this board. Where's the "float" in a semi-floater? The axle carries weight.....what's floaty about that? In truck axles there were a couple of different types, but the one which was REALLY a true floater was the GM corporate truck axle as used in the medium duty (27,000 Lbs and under) truck for YEARS. It did not even have an axle flange, but had like a GEAR on the outboard end which slid into the inside splines on the hub assembly. A light end cap kept it from falling out. That axle floated COMPLETELY, and if the axle housing was really badly bent, NO PROBLEM, whereas if the regular bolted axle floaters got bent you couldn't keep the axle drive bolts tight. It's been a while since I had a pre-war Ford rear axle apart, but as I recall, THEY were a "true" semi floater. The brake drum had roller brgs that rode directly on the housing, and the axle kept the drum from falling off, and turned it as well of course. (Do we have a "correct" NAME for the non semi-floater axles?)/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifThe moonguys were just wondering/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gifOh yeah!....My little suspension moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gifjust reminded me that front wheel drive cars like our GM Grand Am have full floaters in the front.....the axle carries NO weight whatsoever./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif transfer case team.
 
#17 ·
GM 12 bolt - NO
GM 14 bolt - Too heavy, a full floater weighs 600 lbs, and there is a large loss in ground clearance, however they are cheap!!! A full floater w/4.56 and a detroit is $500-550 NEW. (millitary surplus)
Dana 44 - Excellent rear even under V8 power, have seen them hold up well with 38's, can take the abuse and keep on ticking
Dana 60 - Huge Ring and pinion, just remember that the normal everyday 60 semi-float uses the same size shafts as a 44 does (30 spline, 1.3X dia). There is only a ground clearance of 3/4", but it does weigh more. Some of the early Jeep Pickups used a 60 Semi-floater rear that had 35 spline 1.5" dia shafts, and had a 5x5.5 bolt pattern, if your condisdering full width you might look for one of those beasts.

Luke
'77 CJ7 SOA, 35's, D60 rear w/detroit & narrow trac 44 shafts

 
#18 ·
Ford used D60s in the rear of their standard duty F250s from the late 70s early 80s through the mid 80s. They were the 35 spline 1.5 inch axles. They were considered a semi floating axle, but they were a C clip design. They would have come with 8 lug hubs.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
If at first you dont succeed, your replacement will try and try again.
 
#19 ·
Tex,
You have suggested the D60 semi floater, 5 on 5 1/2 as a good potential candidate to be swapped in for Extreme Rock Crawling. One potential problem with that axle is the inability to use a Detroit Locker. I beleive the Detroit Locker is only available for the Full floater. ARB I think, only recently started offering a locker for the Semi Floating D60. Some of the Semi Floating D60s(D60-2 versions) were also C- clip retained, (I know some Fords were, but Im not sure if they were used by other manufacturers). When I was considering using a D60 that was one of the 1st problems I encountered).
Also the 8.8 R&P are much beefier than a D44. If placed side by side there is a BIG difference in thickness and construction of the carrier, ring gear and pinion shaft(1.65"), even though there is only .3" difference in Ring gear diameter.The 3.25" axle tubes are also much more heavy Duty. Also in the Explorer versions 95 and newer, they are a semi floating design, and although they are a C-clip design, the C-clip is not the primary component for retaining the axle, those duties are passed off to a flange at the end of the tubes,disc brake mounting plate and a bearing retainer, held in place with 4 5/8 bolts. The pinion yoke is also an extremely strong design, and does not require the removal of the pinion shaft retaining nut if yoke failure were to occure.
In a rear axle application I would place the 8.8 well above the D44 or corporate 12 in reliability and strength.

Jeff
89 Wrangler
If at first you dont succeed, your replacement will try and try again.
 
G
#20 ·
H8Monday, I think you're wrong about the 60 rear. In fact I know you are. I have a friend with a Detroit in the rear of his CJ8 mudracer. 5-lug, semi-floating 60. This was a common rear for Mopar muscle cars & is used quite a bit in drag racing.

As to the 8.8, I wasn't arguing in favor or against this, except to say that if the 12-bolt is out, so is the 8.8. Both are virtually identical in strength, and both have the exact same shortcoming (if that concerns you). I would not agree with you on placing this rear above the 12-bolt at all (good friend of mine runs a 12-bolt in the rear of his Super Stock mud racer with 650HP & 38.5 Boggers - no breakage since he put it in several years ago), & only the R&P is SLIGHTLY better than the 44 IMO. We're not going to agree on this point, so I won't argue it further.

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing
 
#21 ·
Tex,
I respect your opinion.
As far as the D60 I have a Tra Tech dealers, order catalog, and it says in the Dana 60 section "Detroit Locker will ONLY FIT FULL FLOATING AXLES". But it is from 97.
I guess I can take some solice in your statement that the 8.8 and 12 bolt are virtualy identical in strength, and in the following sentence the 12 bolt is strong enough for 650 HP Super Stock.
I have a a couple of friends from Pomona Ca who are running the 8.8s also in drag racing applications(asphalt), theyve had good luck with them.
I also compete in Mud Bogg Racing, Club level stuff mostly( a couple of county fair races also), with very big turn outs in Central Ca. These are not Mud drags like I think you are probably running(from your Bio), but deep pit, usually 3 ft and deeper 100 to 120 yrd quagmires. And although I rarely see the 8.8 in the Modified division there is an Early Bronco with with a 427 running one with no probs I know of. On the other hand I have seen quite a few 12 bolt failures, usually with high stall autos and big HP, when they hit the deep pit created at the bottom of the entry ramp(where 90% of most drive train carnage occures), the sudden shock load pulls one of the axles from the C clip and the domino affect from there is usually catastrophic, Im sure the 8.8 would fail often in those conditions though also in a full size. About the only axles that hold up well under those conditions are the full floater Sterling 10.25, corporate 14, Dana 70s and 80s.
What type of Mud Drags do you run in?
I noticed you also have a Z71 do you run that and your Jeep?
I run a 91 F250 with a Kenne Bell supercharged 460, lockers front and rear and 4.56 gears,and a bunch of other stuff. Im affraid its to slow for the drag race mud races, but we had a very good year last season in the deep stuff.
Sorry to get off topic but I love mudd boggin the big truck, but I retired it to concentrate on the Jeep, Im already missing it. Here is an attachment picture of a race we showed up a little late to, so I had to sign up and line up with the lumber rack and tool box still on(we did take 1st in modified that day).

Jeff
89 Wrangler
If at first you dont succeed, your replacement will try and try again.
 

Attachments

G
#22 ·
My friend with the 60 semi-float did put it together fairly recently, and I do belive that you have to use specific axle sizes (forget what diameter & spline count, but it has to be a specific one), and that you cannot have the C-clip version. But, to be honest, most of the guys I know with 60's DO have full-floaters, so it could be that this is a new development. Or, it could just be that they don't advertise this unit as being semi-float compatible because many semi-floats & full-floats don't share the same axle size. Not sure.

As to the mud racing, the guy I mentioned with the 12-bolt does mud "drags", but I actully do "bogs" mostly & prefer it that way (and I do have a friend that trashed several 12-bolts, but mostly in rough pits with a 750HP alcohol-burning 468"). We don't often see 12-bolts in radical machines either, & never 8.8's (had a friend who did trash a pair in his '88 F150 with 302/35's). The guys who have Ford rears all use 9" rears & actually, those seem to break at least as often as the 12-bolts around here (12-bolts seem to break axles & 9" seems to lose R&P's) though a couple of guys have had real good luck with 9" rears.

I have raced the Z71 on one occasion (placed even), but only because I was in a building stage on my racer. I too mainly race on the local, club level. But, it's real active around here & I've had as many as 52 entries in my class at some events. I've run a pair of Jeeps in the past. The first was a '74 CJ5 - totally stock 304 & 33" TSL's (31" radials for a long time). The second one ('78 CJ5) had a really built 360 (375HP) with a full-width Scout 44 (3.54) front & a narrow track 44 (3.73) rear. I compensated for the split ratio & axle width by running 38X12.50's front (36" true height) on 10" rims, & 38.5X16's on 15X15's (37" true height) on the rear. Had a lot of fun with that, but I wanted an automatic & 5's are kinda short. Plus, 'bout the time I tore it down, I met my (now) wife who didn't want to race w/o a top over her. So, I now have a 1980 Toyota with a 408" Chevrolet/TH350. Works real well. Used to run 38X12.50's at all 4 corners, but the local rules changed from 36" measured height to 36" stamped height, so now I have Q78 TSL's (true height 35"). These work even better & kept me out of the 40" "Super Stock" class.

The pic you attached looks a lot like what we run quite a bit (although a supercharger would bump you all the way up to the open class around here /wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif). We do have the occasional shallow track (some of the more popular events HAD to go relatively shallow in order to finish under 9 hours!), but mostly it's 2-3 feet deep (sometimes more /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif). I'd say that I probably get pulled out in reverse at least 1/2 the time. Seem to make a lot more full passes now than a few years ago when it was rare, but I don't think the pits are any shallower. Since our club started doing these locally in '92, the average # of trucks to show up has grown from ~50/event to 100 or more. And some of these trucks will be in several classes. All those runs tends to dry up the pits!

Take a look at our club's page & check out the member's rigs. You'll see the kind of mud most of us prefer!

Mid-Missouri Off-Roaders

TEX

/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Got Mud?
G.U.M.B.O. Mud Racing
 
G
#23 ·
Tim and blackCJ,
I see that you guys are both students at CSU (great place for college). One thing has me baffled. How in the hell do you guys even afford to think about all of these modifications? When I was in college (Durango), I was worried about affording enough gas to get me to work! I didn't have a pot to piss in, let alone think about vehicle modifications. Don't get me wrong though, I think it's great that you get the opportunity. I just wonder how you swing it. The economy change in the last ten years must be greater than I think.

 
G
#24 ·
well, it doesnt cost any money to dream. i often wonder how the hell i can afford to build a jeep. but i have come to realize that there are two factors that let me build a jeep. first thing, my college is paid for by my parents...you can call me a spoiled brat, but my folks insisted on it because of a huge rise in the economy in my area. so i dont hafta worry about paying for school. secondly, with the help of this board, if i can build my jeep right the first time i can save alot of money. i try to do most/all of my work myself and constantly hunt for deals. i bought my jeep for 1500, w/a blown engine and picked up a 360 for 200$. its deals like that that allow me to build a jeep. plus if i ever need help, my dad loves this stuff as much as i do...so he is always happy to help.
god i am spoiled
keith

81 cj-7,360,SOA,35's,locked rear,fullcage
 
G
#25 ·
Keith summed it up farely well. My parents are paying for most of my college with certain restrictions (GPA, number of years, etc). I actually shouldn't be a able to afford some of these mods. The trick for me is to find good deals and know a bunch of people. Also it is a matter of knowing what mods to do (thanks to this board and friends) so they don't break or need replaced. Keith remeber that last sentence. Doing the work ourselves with help from friends also keeps the cost way down. The next mods that are being made on my Jeep are more then I can/want to afford so I'm going to get a grandmother and parental loan to finish. Finally I've been saving money since I was four and have invested some and have a couple savings accounts (including a retirement fund I don't touch) so I have a few bucks to work with.

Tim Springer
1980 CJ7
WALSTIB/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif
 
G
#26 ·
I thought about it this weekend and that was pretty damn nosey of me to ask. I think it's great that you guys can swing this stuff. Overall, I would have to say that the economy now is probably the big change between today and when I was in school. I wouldn't call you guys spoiled though. My folks paid for my education also. When I was in school we had the savings and loan bust and Colorado's economy was in the crapper. I usually saved just enough in the summers to pay for basic needs throughout the school year. When I graduated, I couldn't find a job for six months. Now I get four to five unsolicited offers a month! Now the summer jobs are paying a helluva lot more for students too (more than enough to cover inflation since 1990). More power to you!

 
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