Onboard air and welder mount finished. - Off-Road Forums & Discussion Groups
Jeep-Short Wheelbase All discussion of short wheelbase Jeeps: CJ, TJ, YJ and JK

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of (permalink) Old 06-02-2001, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
Veteran
 
kutyafal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dale City, VA
Posts: 1,324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Onboard air and welder mount finished.

I've finally finished building the bracket for the second alternator. Also finished assebmling all the components needed for the air setup into a manifold. I'll mount the tank under the tub just front of the gas tank once the SOA is done. I've tested it and it works great. Here are some pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/15056153rOHMnepksC

Now for the weldernator... I tink I broke it. [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif[/img] I test ran the alternator today and it pumped out around 30v at idle ... all for about 15 seconds. Then something happened to it because it started making this groaning sound when I applied power to field and it's so hard to turn it almost stops the engine. Only puts out around 15v now at idle. Without power it runs free and fine. The bearings are ok. I tested it on the bench as before and while before I could turn it at 400 RMP with my electric drill while field had power not when I apply power to field it hardly turns at all. If I turn it slowly with my hand it feels OK, but it feels like the faster I turn it the more resistance it develops, unlike before. It's like it tries to run in the opposite direction. Everything looks fine on the inside too. I'm kind of bummed. I don't know what happened to it. I mean the only thing it has inside now is the output diode pack which only rectifies the 3 phase AC to DC. I'm thinking of testing the 3 windings individually to see if I can isolate the one that might be bad. Any ideas? I'm truely bummed ... [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif[/img]


'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R
kutyafal is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of (permalink) Old 06-02-2001, 09:41 PM
Can't Get Enough
 
jeeperjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Plywood State.... Florida
Posts: 1,340
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

This sounds like a good way to go about building an on board welder. It is a cut and paste from http://reality.sgi.com/rogerb/Welding/alternator.txt

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some years ago my economic status was on the tight side and I had need
of the use of an arc welder. A friend of mine had a portable DC welder
manufactured by the Scott company, which he loaned to me. It was very
interesting, as it was quite small and looked like a portable standby
generator minus the roll cradle.

It certainly wasn't the gas driven Lincoln arc welders that were common
to contractors in that day (late 70s). Those monstrosities took up the
better part of the bed of a full size pick-up truck The unit was
advertised at 125 amps DC, and it was powered by an 8 horsepower Briggs
and Stratton engine. It weighed less than 100 lbs, and it could be
carried by one person, though it was it bit on the awkward side.
Mounted on the engine was a small box about 10 inches on a side with a
potentiometer and Miller brand type welding lead connectors. What was
in that small box that changed 8 Briggs and Stratton horsepower into
120 amps of DC welding power? I really wanted to know that secret.

Despite its diminutive stature I knew that you could actually weld with
it as a contractor at work had one and I had personally observed it
working.

During the course of my using it, naturally, the belt broke. Of course
this was no ordinary belt, it was only about 1/4 inch wide instead of
the 1/2 inch or more of a typical "v" belt. I finally tracked down the
Scott dealer, as this happened to be a quasi holiday, (Christmas eve
day and Christmas was on a Saturday). The manager just happened to be
working at his store/shop and while he was no longer the Scott welder
dealer, he did have some parts, ie,. the belt.

I drove over to this place and found a small assembly shop, that was
making, you guessed it, portable DC welders of the Scott Welder type.
Being the curious type I not only purchased a belt, but got a tour of
the factory and found out what was in that box. Would you believe a
Delco alternator, some diodes, heat sinks, and a small controller
circuit. The owner explained how after he lost the Scott dealership,
how he decided to make his own. He did some reverse engineering and a
lot of messing around in his garage and brewed up his design which was
called an APACHE welder.

Anyway he bought Delco Alternators from GM with the stators not wound.
He had worked out the appropriate windings and hired people to wind
them for his operation. He explained the control circuit and even how
he used the magneto of the engine to help the self-excitation process
get started.

Hot dog, I now knew how to build a welder. I had the engine and Chief
auto parts had lots of Delco alternators. I bought a rebuilt 60 amp
model, no built in regulator, and took it home. After tearing it apart,
expecting to find fairly small wire in the stator, I was surprised to
find that it looked like the same size wire the SCOTT guy was winding
into his alternators. Great, I won't bother ripping that stuff out,
I'll just slide some 32 gauge stuff in between for my field windings,
throw in a bunch of rectifiers, pots, capacitors, and wahhla! I will
have a welder.

Well the long and short of it is, that you can make a welder this way.
It wasn't quite as easy as I thought it would be, but I learned a lot
about 3 phase power, Y connected and Delta connected, transformer
effects, and bunch of other stuff. It wasn't entirely cheap either
although my home brew machine was less than 1/2 of a new one, even if I
had went out and purchased a new engine which I didn't. A real good
scrounger could probably do this for less than $200 engine included.
The engine is the single most expensive item.

Delco alternators from the 60s and 70s without the built in regulator
are the most suitable. It needs to be at least the 60 amp size or
larger. You could use one of the newer integral mounted regulators,
but in the past they were more expensive. That may no longer be true.
I don't think Chrysler alternators will work as they are already delta
connected where as the Delco ones are "Y" connected. You need the Delta
connections.

A 60 amp Delco alternator is capable of 110-120 amps if it is
reconnected in a Delta configuration. They come "Y" connected.
Basically you buy the alternator, take it apart, throw out the diodes
and the regulator if it has one. Then find where the 3 phases of the
stator are tied together and undo that connection. In a "Y"
connection, one end of each of the 3 phases is connected together. In
a "Delta" connection, the 2 ends of 2 phases are tied together. If
the windings are drawn as a series of loops along a straight line, the
3 windings form the sides of a triangle, which is the symbol for the
Greek letter delta. The "Y" connection schematically looks like a
"Y".

Changing this configuration will lower the output voltage and raise the
current by a factor of 1.732 (square root of 3). This will give you an
open circuit voltage of about 50-60 volts and about 20 volts when you
are welding and maximum continuous output of 104 amps (60 x 1.732).
The math and theory behind the actions of a 3 phase circuit can be
rather daunting. If the reader is so inclined there are numerous books
around that will explain far better than I ever could. Suffice to say
it works and certainly isn't new. Almost all of the power grid in the
US uses 3 phase circuitry. Your house typically has only one phase
hooked up to it.

You can safely overdrive the system to 125 amps if you keep the duty
cycle down. I have never have had to stop and let the unit cool down
in my use of it. The time required to change rods and restart would
probably be sufficient to prevent melt down of the windings at 125
amps.

The alternator has to spin a bunch to do this. You need about a 3 to 1
increase in speed to do this. This means at 3600 rpm engine speed, the
alternator is doing about 11,000 rpm. Not to worry. Check out a small
block Chevy. It depends on the gear ratio, but if you were blasting
down the freeway in the old days (75 mph) the Chevy motor was doing
2500-3000 rpm. The crankshaft pulley is about the size that you are
looking for, which means that the alternator is buzzing along at 9000
or so rpm. Stomp on it and passing gear will get you well above the
11,000 that your welder is running at. So the engineers at GM have
already considered this form of abuse for you.

The existing diodes are too small, so they get canned. You need at
least 25 amp 200 volt PIV diodes. Get 3, stud-to-anode and 3
stud-to-cathode. Fortunately these are fairly cheap, few bucks, bigger
is better, but anything over 50 amps is overkill.

You need 2 heat sinks with plenty of fins like you see in large audio
amplifiers. You mount 3 of the diodes of one polarity on one of the
heat sinks and the other 3 on the other heat sink. If you don't
insulate the diodes from the heat sinks then the heat sinks become a
common conductor for the 3 diodes and one is ( ) and the other (-).
This assumes that the two heat sinks are electrically insulated from
each other. If you follow this suggestion then you must follow the
suggestion to buy the diodes as cathode to stud and anode to stud
types. You can do it with all one type but it is more difficult and
messier as a connection must now be made to the stud portions of the
diodes and you need to electrically isolate the diodes from the heat
sinks.

Electrically isolate the heat sinks from the cabinet by mounting them
on isolation shock mounts. These typically come either with threaded
studs, or threaded inserts. I used ones that were about an inch in
diameter and had 1/4-20 threaded studs on them. Connect your welding
leads to the heat sinks. One is positive, the other negative. I
bought some female connectors at a welding shop. They sometimes
referred to as Miller style. They are a tapered brass rods that mate
with a tapered sockets. I mounted these sockets on the side so that my
welding cables were not permanent with the welder. The sockets come
and red and black so that you can keep the polarity correct.

You can get the shock mounts from Grangers. The diodes form factor is a
D0-5 shape and most electrical/electronic supply houses carry them. A
1N1186 or 1N1188 should work fine.

For excitation I found that the self excitation route was a pain, so I
obtained a small permanent magnet motor. You need 3 amps at 16 volts.
Burdens surplus catalog has bunches of them. I used a vacuum cleaner
belts to drive the motor and made pulleys to give about a 2 to 1
increase in the crankshaft speed. This ratio will vary depending on
what kind of motor you end up buying, but the permanent magnet motor
will have to be driven at least the rated nameplate speed to get
anywhere near the maximum nameplate current rating.

A simple power rheostat will suffice to control the field although a
simple power transistor circuit out of a Radio Shack book is a nice
touch and it is what I evolved the circuit to.

I made a small box about 12 inches on a side and 6 inches deep. On one
of the 12x12 sides I cut a hole to match the shape of the alternator.
Make the other 12x12 a removable door. The older GM alternators have 4
screws to hold them together. I removed the screws and made the hole in
the box to fit over the end of the alternator with appropriate bumps to
match the casing. I bored holes in the bumps to match where the screws
went. Then I put the screws back in and now I had an alternator with a
box on its back side. I mounted the heat sinks on rubber shock mounts
which are electrical insulators and help protect the diodes from all
the engine vibrations. If you drill some holes in the cover and on the
bottom under the heat sinks, the fan on the alternator will now draw
air over the heat sinks and keep the whole thing cool.

I constructed a mounting bracket that bolted to the gasoline engine.
The alternator sits above the crankshaft, although it could be mounted
on the side. Alternators are not direction sensitive when it comes to
generating electricity. However, the cooling fan may not be as
efficient when operated in a reverse direction but the effect would
probably not be harmful. Also the brushed are mounted off to one side
for the direction of rotation. There are many approaches to mounting
the alternator and it is a matter of preference and what kind of engine
you mount it on.

The welder will run 3/32 rod quite nicely and if you push it, 1/8". It
is a little hard to get the arc started and an arc stabilizer from
Burdens would probably help.

I still have mine and I made a second one for my brother. I went so
far as to make a foot control for it and used it with a tig torch.
Works pretty good. I haven't fried any diodes yet.


SURPLUS CENTER
1015 West "O" Street
P.O. Box 82209
Lincoln, Ne 68501-2209

I don't know it the ASCII art will cut and pase of not, but I'll give it a try.

An Attempt at a little ASCII art. Welding
leads

______________________
|
___|
| |
| |
/_\ |
| |
| |
_______ 0-----------------------------0--|---0
| | _/ \ | |
| F (/) W _\ /_ | |
| I (/) I _\ /_ | |
| E (/) N _\ /_ | _
| L (/) D _\ /_ | \ /
| D (/) I _\ /_ | |
| (/) N _\ /_ __| |
| (/) G _\ /_ | | |______
| __| _\ /_ | | |
| | _\ Alternator / /_\ | |
| | \ \ | | |
| | / \ | | |
| | o---\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/-----0---------------0--|---0 |
| | \ | | |
| | \ ___| | |
| | \ | _ |
| | \ | \ / |
| | \ | | |
| | \ /_\ | |
| | \ | |______|
| | \ | |
| | \----------------------------------0-------0 |
| | | |
| | | |
| | _ |
| | RHEOSTAT \ / |
| | __/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\________ | |
| | ^ | |_____|
| |______________| 12-16 volts
|___________
|__________________________________|__
Welding
leads
An Attempt at a little more ASCII art.

---------------------------
| Box |
| -----------------------
| | |
| | | |\/|
______
| | |
|||| |
| |-------| - -
|||| |
| | | | |
||||- |
| | | | Alternator
---||||| |
| | | |
||||| |
| | | |
---||||| |
| |Heat | | |
||||- |
| |Sink | - -
|||| |
| | | | |
|||| |
| | | | |
|||| |
HOLES---> | | | | |
|| |
| | | -----------------------
|| |
HOLES---> | | | |
|| |
| | | |
|| |
HOLES---> | |_______| |
|| |
| |
|| |
----------------------------
|| |
^
|| |
| ||
______|
| || |
HOLES || |
|| |
|| |
|||| |
|||| |
|||| |
|||| |
|||| |
|||| |-
|||| |
|||| |
|- ||||--------
| ||||
| ||||
ENGINE
| ||||
|- ||||--------
|||| |
|||| |
|||| |-
|||| |
|||| |
|||| |
|||| |
|/\| |
|
|
|
|
|

------------------------
|




"Honestly, I didn't lift the Jeep.
I,um..ah..lowered the axles"
jeeperjohn is offline  
post #3 of (permalink) Old 06-03-2001, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
Veteran
 
kutyafal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dale City, VA
Posts: 1,324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

Thanks jeeperjohn! Well I took it apart again and checked the diode pack. It blew one of the output diodes. [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif[/img] Now I have to find out if there is a replacement pack available or just try to upgrade the diodes. I'd rather not get a different alternator since I just finished building the custom mount for this one. It'd be a bummer to have to start over ... [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
Bad diode! Bad,bad diode! [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif[/img]





'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 9-443149-Aut_0113.jpg (68.4 KB, 2 views)
kutyafal is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of (permalink) Old 06-03-2001, 10:23 AM
Can't Get Enough
 
jeeperjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Plywood State.... Florida
Posts: 1,340
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

Sounds like a good time to do the bigger is better thing with the diodes.


"Honestly, I didn't lift the Jeep.
I,um..ah..lowered the axles"
jeeperjohn is offline  
post #5 of (permalink) Old 06-03-2001, 08:34 PM
I Might Just Know What I'm Talking About
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Westen Canada
Posts: 1,838
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

Tibor

Been following along here with you on your welder adventures and I must say I admire your determination and experimental qualities . I think you`ve done a great job on the OBA and the welder so far . I`m kind of waiting to see why the diode popped , bad diode or other problem within the weldernator(Good name) .
I am going to do the same on my 79 304 CJ and figure the bracket and location where the air pump used to be would be ideal . Just need to finish the engine bay wiring and spark her up .
How thick of metal do you think you will be able to weld once you have the bugs worked out ? Keep up the good work !I`d be experimenting with you if I was further along in the engine development stages and could test it [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Jeff



<font color=black>CJ.... Need I Say More ?? [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif[/img] </font color=black>
Jeepzilla is offline  
post #6 of (permalink) Old 06-03-2001, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
Veteran
 
kutyafal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dale City, VA
Posts: 1,324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

Thanks for the encouraging words. [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Of course I'm bummed right now cuz of the diode thing but like you say, I'm determined to get it going. I suspect it was a bad piece. The whole system is really pretty simple and it should (and did) work. The diode blew at about 5 seconds after I revved up from the 700 RMP idle to about 1300 RMP (around 50v output I figure) which it should take without any problem. It really wouldn't be an issue otherwise if it wasn't for the fact that I'm trying to finish the SOA with a borrowed welder which I don't know when the guy wants back. So I was hoping to rely on this unit just in case. But we'll see. I'll be calling some alternator shops tomorrow for diodes.


'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R
kutyafal is offline  
post #7 of (permalink) Old 06-04-2001, 11:23 AM
I Might Just Know What I'm Talking About
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Westen Canada
Posts: 1,838
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

At the optimum operating speed for your weldernator , what kind of amps do you expect to put out(at what RPM?) ? Think she`ll handle 1/4 " plate ?


Jeff



<font color=black>CJ.... Need I Say More ?? [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif[/img] </font color=black>
Jeepzilla is offline  
post #8 of (permalink) Old 06-04-2001, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
Veteran
 
kutyafal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dale City, VA
Posts: 1,324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

Jeepzilla:
From what I've read it should handle 1/4 without any problems. There are many factors though that will determine just how well that weld will turn out. Joint type, fitment, cleanness of parts, technique used, position, etc. comes to mind. The alternator is a 140A unit and it produces 30v at 700 RMP. I don't have the amp figures yet - I don't have an ammeter and still learning the electric stuff - but there are formulas to calculate that. So I figure that around 2500 RMP it'll do ~100v high freq. DC and should do the 140A or close to that. That's equivalent to a 180-200A 50 Hz (or 60Hz ?)AC unit. The frequency of this unit will be in the hundreds of Hz so puddle agitation will be a lot more intense along with penetration and weld quality.
Course I'm an amateur and just making this stuff up. [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] But I did stay at the Holiday Inn... [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img]


'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R
kutyafal is offline  
post #9 of (permalink) Old 06-04-2001, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
Veteran
 
kutyafal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dale City, VA
Posts: 1,324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

Found a guy who owns and alternator shop nearby and is also Hungarian (imagine that!) and he has the replacement bolt-in diode pack. He'll also give me a handful of heavy duty diodes to build a monster external rectifier w/large heat sinks to handle the power output if the stock ones blow again. And I thought that this thing's going to be a quickie project! [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]


'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R
kutyafal is offline  
post #10 of (permalink) Old 06-05-2001, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
Veteran
 
kutyafal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dale City, VA
Posts: 1,324
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: Onboard air and welder mount finished.

Just for heck I checked with NAPA on the rectifier and they want $95 for it!!! I couldn't restrain myself, I laughed so hard into the phone the guy just hung up! [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Even some other local money-hungry shops want at most $30-$40 for the thing (no Hungarian connection of course [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img]). NAPA never sees to amaze me... [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]


'91 YJ,I-6,2.5" lift,Boomerangs,33s,D30,D35c,Lock-Rights F&R
kutyafal is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Off-Road Forums & Discussion Groups forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome