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YJJP 04-24-2000 05:43 PM

TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
After putting the cap, rotor, and wires in an 88YJ, this darn thing doesn't want to run correctly. Everything went in easy, as soon as it
started up, it idled very rough and now sounds like it runs a header ( from the back, not under the hood ). I triple checked everything,
re-timed it, and double checked the weber. What gives ? I finally have it to where it's driveable, and even ran it up and down the road
a few time. I can feel it start to really pull, but then it feels like it starts to bog down. Can you give me some help ? I did pull the
distributor to stop a leak, and put it back in according to the FSM. That's where my trouble might lie. Need help...I may even need
your help with some weber questions.... Scratching my head, and tired of the wife saying I told you so....

If it ain't broke,don't fit it. Wait till the wife is gone, and upgrade it .

Junk Yard Genius 04-24-2000 08:38 PM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
That was going to be my question, did you pull the distributor for any reason...

You didn't say if you had a I-6 or V-8 engine?...
--------------------------------

I would start by checking my firing order, and making sure I had the tall rotor in the distributor...
...CHECK YOUR FIRING ORDER...

I would double check to make sure all of the ignition wire ends were firmly connected to the spark plugs, and to the distributor cap towers...

Then, verify your distributor position...
---------------------------------

Verify your distributor position...
1. Pull the #1 spark plug.
2. Put a cork in the plug hole, or your finger...
3. Crank the engine over until you are sure you are on the compression stroke...
4. Use a socket on the crank bolt to turn the engine over until the timing mark on the balancer reaches the Zero mark on the timing pointer.
5. Put the distributor cap on the distributor, and use a magic marker to mark the location of the #1 plug wire tower on the distributor base.
6. Take the distributor cap off, and install the rotor.
7. Install the distributor so the rotor is pointing at the mark you made for the #1 cylinder.
(You will have to turn the rotor 1/16 to 1/8 of a turn counter-clockwise before you install the distributor so the rotor will line up with your mark.)
Note; If the distributor doesn't drop all the way in it's hole, don't try to force it.
It is just the oil pump drive misaligned.
Put slight down pressure on the distributor housing,
AND...
Turn the engine over TWO complete turns, and come back to the zero timing mark.
The distributor should drop right down if it hasn't already.

8. If the rotor is within 1/4" of your timing mark, screw the distributor down lightly.
9. Put the cap and everything else back on.
10. CHECK YOUR FIRING ORDER.
11. CHECK YOUR FIRING ORDER AGAIN.
12. Start and time your engine.



"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

YJJP 04-24-2000 11:46 PM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
It's the I-6. Well, I actually have done all that. Twice for good luck. I pulled the number one plug and turned the engine over at the
crank until I saw the piston come up, then made sure to align the timing mark with 0. Made sure the rotor was straight with the
number one on the cap and made sure to give it a 1/8 turn counter clockwise. Then made sure the oil pump slot lined up with the
shaft and dropped the whole thing back in. Lined up perfect. That's when all the trouble started. I followed the FSM to the letter. It's
a little hard to start, but it does run. Not like it did though. I haven't opened the plugs up yet, still set at factory specs. What could
be the next thought.
Thanks for your help.

If it ain't broke,don't fit it. Wait till the wife is gone, and upgrade it .

CJDave 04-25-2000 08:24 AM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Once you are absolutely certain that you have the correct firing order and the wires are correct, try this: (1)Crank the engine over to get the crank pulley to the timing mark with #1 cylinder on top dead center. (2)Loosen the distributor slightly so you can rotate it. (3) Pull the coil wire out of the cap. (4) Switch on the ignition(DO NOT CRANK, ONLY "ON"). (5) With the ignition switch on, hold the coil lead near the block with an insulated tool, and rotate the distributor back and forth just a tad to get the coil to fire. That way, you can see where the distributor is actually firing, relative to zero Top Dead Center. Rotate the distributor clockwise and then slowly back counterclockwise till it fires. Carefully tighten it at that exact spot. Then pull the cap and see how the rotor looks compared to where the number one terminal on the cap actually is. Before TeamRush introduced me to it, I never even paid any attention to rotor-phasing, but it's REAL, and it can screw you up if it isn't right. So you need to know that when the coil fires at zero top dead center, that the rotor IS ACTUALLY pointing to the #1 terminal. The relationship between where the terminal on the cap is, and the actual spot that the trigger fires the coil is important, and you need to verify that those two spots are in perfect alignment. If they aren't, the rotor could actually be sending spark to the terminal ahead or behind the #1 cylinder at the same time, causing cross-fire and reduced power could be the result.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img][img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img][img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] transfer case team.

Junk Yard Genius 04-25-2000 11:15 AM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
CJ Dave, he didn't say he verified TDC on #1, just that he waited until the piston came up...
He never said he verified TDC on the compression stroke, he may have dropped the distributor in at TDC on the Exhaust Stroke....

That's why I ALWAYS make a point of telling shade tree guys, TWO complete turns of the engine to get the oil pump tang to engage. They just don't always get it when you say, Four Stroke...
It is a hard concept to grab onto that there are actually 720 degrees in a CYCLE CIRCLE, not 360.

He's probably 180 degrees out with the distributor, that's why it 'feels' sluggish...
If he's not 180 out, he's probably got two of the plug wires crossed, or doesn't have them connected well to the cap or plugs.
That's a REAL common mistake...
CJ Dave, you have helped at least four people with the same problem in the last three months...
---------------------------------

From the sound of the problems, I'm still inclined to believe he has a crossed plug wire, or a bad plug wire... Or the firing order is one hole off on the distributor cap...
It just has to be something assembly that is screwed up....

It was running fine before he took the distributor out...
Has to be something in the parts he installed, or the way he installed them...?...
(Can you smell the rust burning.... I'm trying to think....)
---------------------------------

I've also seen coil connections that didn't... Spread the coil connections out so they have to be forced into the coil.
If you use the TFI coil, make sure the coil wire 'Snaps' onto the terminal, just like the cap and plug connections are supposed to.

Check the primary resistance of the TFI coil, it should be about 0.44 Ohms...

If he did the TFI conversion, he might also have the polarity to the coil backwards. That shouldn't make the problems he describes here, but about half of the conversions that I have looked at that are local had the polarity to the coil backwards.

The rotor also comes to mind. If he used the short rotor, instead of the taller rotor that was supposed to be used in the conversion, he would get these symptoms, but if he did that, I'm surprised the module lived this long...
The discharge voltage to jump a 3/4" gap in the cap has to be astronomical...
I know it will do it, because a guy in Indianapolis had problems, and trailered his jeep down here for me to fix.
It was the rotor.
--------------------------------

We are just shooting in the dark here, it could be a lot of things.
If the jeep ran fine before he pulled the distributor, and all he did was the cap, rotor, plug wire, coil conversion, that shouldn't be the problem.

We have seen time and time again the Manuals be wrong, and he may have a misprinted manual...
(He's probably military or former military referring to the service manual as FSM... Discipline and putting his ego away will serve him well here, we WILL find this problem...)

He's a pretty sharp guy, but this is one of those 'jump up and bite you in the a$$' problems...
--------------------------------

It's almost got to be the distributor,....
Or DISTRIBUTOR CONNECTIONS...
--------------------------------

MORE INFO, We Need More Info!!!

I'm going to make a point of keeping an eye on this thread until this problem is solved...
If it doesn't turn up in the distributor timing, we'll try a test harness and see if it's wiring...
Then go on from there...

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

YJJP 04-25-2000 02:37 PM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
Ok you two, stop burning the brain cells. CJDave, I need to borrow one of your "embarrased" moonguys ( if there is one ? ). Do I feel
like going back to auto tech 101. TR, you had it. Wrong stroke. I fixed it at lunch today, finally had an extra finger ( and it was attached
to one of our better machanics ) to confirm compression. Frustration and a Pregnant wife put me in the wrong frame of mind this
weekend. Back to work and I had time to think it out. You really don't know how foolish I feel. Oh well, live and learn. TR, just
because I've been in the military for seventeen years, doesn't mean I'm that programmed, or old. I've always heard them refered to as
Factory Service Manuals, and that's what Chrysler calls them. And what's wrong with the shade tree ? All kidding aside, I want to
thank both of you for your help, and patience. I knew something was gnawing at the back of my mind the whole time. Gentlemen,
my hats off to both of you......( insert " gracious " moonguy ) Thanks again, now you two can start chuckling.

If it ain't broke,don't fit it. Wait till the wife is gone, and upgrade it .

CJDave 04-25-2000 02:55 PM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif[/img] Here he is and ready to travel[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif[/img] Don't feel too stepped on.....I once witnessed an auto repair class AND their instructor crank a Ford engine for over an hour and all it would do was BANG! when #1 came around. Yep....you guessed it....it was wired in the opposite direction of the firing order on the cap. #1 was right, every thing else was wrong[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]I was working on a project in the shop at the time and felt like I should walk over there and say something, but I really could NOT believe that the instructor could miss a thing like that[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]I figured that it MUST be some other more complex problem; after all, this was COLLEGE[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img][img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img][img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] transfer case team.

YJJP 04-25-2000 09:48 PM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
Thanks for the loan, I am going to break out the tach/dwell and vac guages tomorrow at lunch. Seems the only time I have to work on
it is at work. What a shame. Still needs to be dialed in some. Never can stop tinkering, one day I will learn. So that earlier post you
put up about "phasing" the timing/distributor, looked very interesting. I'll read it tonight before bed, maybe it will soak in. Again, I can't
thank you two enough, I get a chuckle every time I go back and read the post. Looks like some gray matter got worked. I can wrench
most things, but when you two start talking jig-a-watts, ohms, and the resistance movement, well, I have to keep reminding myself that
someday I should educate myself more. I should of known it was 180 out..........Damn...Thanks again....

If it ain't broke,don't fit it. Wait till the wife is gone, and upgrade it .

Junk Yard Genius 04-25-2000 11:32 PM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
Don't sweat it...
We have a supposed Gold ASE Master Tech down the street that 'Rebuilt' a small block chevy...
Screwed with it for three days trying to get it running...
Finally broke down and called the old SAE certified team...

Distributor out 180 degrees,
Two plug wires not connected at the cap,
One plug wire not connected at the plug,
Vacuum advance diaphragm ruptured,
#2 and #4 plug wires crossed at the plugs,
#5 spark plug broken,
One idle mixture screw 1/4 turn out, the other 5-1/4 turns out,
3 broken off valve cover screws,
2 header bolts missing,
and a partridge in a pear tree...

It was like a bunch of chimps had put it together...
And the really frightening thing is, he's doing brakes at a local oil change and muffler shop...
-----------------------------------------------

After three days of screwing around with that engine on a new cam, I was so surprised that he didn't kill the cam during break in...


Just goes to show you that an amature that pays attention is worth ten of the SAE guys that don't have a clue.
-------------------------------------

You never said how it runs now that you have the timing correct...?...
Is it doing OK for you?

If you need a little info on how to tune you carb with a vacuum gauge, let me know, and we'll go over it.

Later all, Aaron.

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"

CJDave 04-25-2000 11:36 PM

Re: TFI - CJDave/TR Need your help
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] That rotor phasing concept is difficult. Aaron had to go over and over that with me before it sunk in. Before TR got on this BBS I had never HEARD of rotor phasing, and we raced for quite a few years, built a lot of hot Chryslers, and thought we were pretty smart[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

CJDave
Quadra-Trac modified by the crack moonguy[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img][img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img][img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] transfer case team.


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