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post #1 of (permalink) Old 03-24-2000, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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TeamRush Clarification Please?

Just to let you know, I have been following your ignition upgrade posts. I, myself have opted for the MPI so I believe I am not a candidate for it. However, my father-in-law, has an 81 cj with 258, and earlier I suggested the HEI upgrade. Now following your posts on duraspark, I am confused. In one post, for the I-6, you state that the HEI is OK. On other posts you downplay it. Is the downplay intended only for V-8 versions, or is the Father-in-law better off switching to the ford coil, wires, cap and base plate?

Thanks for your input. As you can tell, I do not proclaim to know anything about ignitions other than the fact they won't run without'em.

Enjoying Montana's Big Sky (& rocks & rivers & mountians etc, You get the picture.)
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 03-24-2000, 12:54 PM
 
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?

*Just to let you know, I have been following your ignition upgrade posts. I, myself have opted for the MPI so I believe I am not a candidate for it.*

Why not? Don't you think a fuel injected engine could benefit from a smooth, powerful ignition?
The reason the TFI style ignitions were developed was for the harder to ignite, leaned out fuel injections systems and lean burn carbs...
You can benefit as much as anyone, and more than some from the Ignition upgrade, Including the TFI coil or MSD module upgrades.
---------------------------------

*However, my father-in-law, has an 81 cj with 258, and earlier I suggested the HEI upgrade. Now following your posts on duraspark, I am confused. In one post, for the
I-6, you state that the HEI is OK. On other posts you downplay it. Is the downplay intended only for V-8 versions, or is the Father-in-law better off switching to the ford coil, wires, cap and base plate? *

WHAT I SAID WAS...
If you are switching from BREAKER POINTS, the GM HEI is alright.
If you already have a GM HEI, I will try to work with you...

I still prefer the Motorcraft ignition over GM HEI in ANY case, but sometimes it's just more cost effective for some of the guys to go GM HEI if they have one lying around.

If you already have the Motorcraft Dura Spark ignition, USE THE UPGRADE!
The upgrade just replaces the wear parts of your ignitions with better ignition components than the Jeep factory guys used.
The TFI coil upgrade brings you into the 80's, and the MSD 6 series module brings you into the 90's.
The Dura Spark, MSD upgrades are emissions legal also, if that is a concern where you live.
--------------------------------

*Thanks for your input. As you can tell, I do not proclaim to know anything about ignitions other than the fact they won't run without'em.*

With as much as been posted on ignitions in the past three months, I'd be confused too!
Everybody has an opinion, and most of the posters here have expressed them here.
That's a lot of words thrown back and forth, so confusion sometimes abounds.
Hope this helps clear things up.
Aaron.

PS. Contact me with your engine specifics through email, and I'll give you a list of what you need, and what year it comes from.
[email protected]

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post #3 of (permalink) Old 03-24-2000, 03:50 PM
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?

Here I go, again... I've tried to follow the ignition 'saga', too. And, Aaron, have you specifically recommended to the 'computer-controlled -Duraspark' folks (85-up, or is it 84-up?) that they might consider wiring the DS, so that the DS is NOT controlled by the computer?? Seems to me that this might be a good idea. All they have to do is follow the diagram that you posted as an attachment, a couple of days ago. Awhile back, this might have been referred to as the 'Nutter-by-pass'. But, in reality, it's nothing more than wiring the DS to run without the computer, like it was 'factory-stock', in 1983 (for example). I promise (obviously, my opinion), that combined with your other DS 'up-grade', this will make the engine 'free-running', and get rid of the 'bog' that most people report at about 3000 rpm. I believe that one of the reasons that HEI-users are able to report a 'free-running' engine with the HEI, is because, installing the HEI 'automatically' eliminates the computer from the system.
Best wishes.

bobH
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 03-24-2000, 11:44 PM
 
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?

Two quickies on that Bob,
I NEVER recommend that anyone do anything that defeats the emissions controls...
(If they take the wiring diagram, and the parts list posted a while back and makes an independent harness, I have no control over that)
That would also mean that they have had enough of the computer, and know enough to do away with it on their own...
I would never recommend breaking the law... [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
(That's why I say 'Test Harness'... You know, like 'Test Pipe' to replace the catalytic converter...)

Second,
The factory Dura Spark module starts to become just as unstable as the GM HEI at 3,500 rpm.
The Dura Spark doesn't have near as many false triggers or ground fires, or cross fires at 3,500 rpm as the GM HEI,
Generally making it a better choice.
Keeping the Motorcraft ignition keeps the vehicle emissions legal...

(see, I'm a law abiding citizen...)
----------------------------------

Not trying to be cute anymore,
Anytime you can boost efficiency with out hurting emissions, or helping emissions, it's a good thing. Better ignition means cleaner burn and less emissions.
I always leave the converter on vehicles that are basically stock. I can work with them up to about 400 horsepower, so why not have them cleaning things up?
We have even added dual converters to vehicles that never came with them just to clean things up.
We only have one mud ball to live on, and I do what I can to keep it clean.
The three generations before us did everything they could to destroy the planet, and they almost succeeded.
It's up to my generation and the next two generations to clean this rock up, or bad things will happen.

I am proud to say I have been asked by a major engine remanufacturer to help with what may very well be the largest single upgrade ever, The Hydrogen Engine.
If the reman guys get it first, they intend to offer it for every single automobile made in the last 40 years.
Clean, cheap, durable, and fits everything.
Cross your fingers...

If one of the big four get it first, it will be patented to death and stuck away somewhere to rot...

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post #5 of (permalink) Old 03-25-2000, 06:28 AM
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?

Got any good recipes for BBQed ones.........gas or charcoal?

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post #6 of (permalink) Old 03-27-2000, 01:27 PM
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?, Hydrogen engine comment...

I caught your note on the hydrogen engine comment. I, too, worked on a hydrogen engine program, back in the 70's. These programs seem to run in cycles. Reading the literature, I see that hydrogen is being re-discovered, again. If you or your associates are doing a literature search, you will likely run across some SAE and DOE papers that we published in the 74-80 time-frame. The authors were my associates, and I recall being co-author on one SAE paper, and I did three other DOE papers as a single author. I worked at a Govt-funded lab (still there, different assignments). My job had little to do with the 'paper' part of the project, as I got to run/operate the test lab. If you are going to be working with hydrogen, keep in mind where it is on the periodic table, and what that means, and, also, remember the Hindenburg. The risks are real, if you are dealing with it in gaseous form. Luckily, modern systems do not require gaseous storage. I'll start watching the literature again, to see where this is heading, but I hope you can keep us appraised of what you are doing. Best wishes.
Other comments....
Altering emissions systems, breaking the law.... give me a break... ALL of your DS 'upgrades' would be considered illegal, at least in my state.
Catalytic 'test-pipes'... never used one, never seen one. I would never consider removing a catalyst, except to replace it. (And, I've replaced a bunch of them on CJ's with the BBD.) Side-note on catalysts... A new catalyst (IMO) is by far the most cost-effective way to bring a BBD CJ into compliance for a smog test. Following the documented procedure to trouble-shoot the BBD-computer system is probably the most expensive way (if you are paying for diagnostic labor). The '5-minute' checks on the sensor, stepper-motor, and computer are the cheapest, and a new catalyst will do the rest.
Messing up the planet, etc..... You've probably figured out that I am from those past generations that you mentioned. I was Jeeping in the 50's and 60's, and probably did as much to mess things up, as anyone. There wasn't very many of us, back then. Now, the back-country is 'over-run' with vehicles. My thinking has changed, and what was ok, way back, is not ok, now. I'm probably as much a 'tree-hugger' today, as you. But, there are still a ton of things we mostly accept today, as ok, that someday you will likely look back on and conclude that it was 'wrong'. The way things are going today, it will take a lot more than your generation and the next two, to do much good. (Not a complaint, just an observation.)

bobH
post #7 of (permalink) Old 03-27-2000, 10:50 PM
 
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?, Hydrogen engine comment...

You must be in California...

I don't do anything on the upgrades that can't be switched back a hour if you have to do the emissions test...
Most emissions guys would never notice the cap upgrade, and the rest is invisible.
If you go MSD, you are 50 state legal no matter what...

I'm not talking about the local hot rodder that leaked oil....
I'm talking about the guy that owned a battery company, and dumped his acid and lead shavings into the ground water...

I'm talking about the chemical company that dumped so much toxic waste into the environment that the local river caught on fire...

I'm talking about millions of acres of land strip mined, and then abandoned to leach copper, oil and a thousand other toxins into the surface water, not to mention destroying the local eco systems...

I'm talking about the auto manufacturers dumping millions of pounds of heavy metals and millions of gallons of toxic waste into the environment...

I'm talking about the guy with a gas station that knew the tanks were leaking, but used them for another 20 years...

I'm talking about Love Canal, ect...

I'm talking about the automotive dealership that dumped used oil into the ground under the building. (building no longer there, but we get to clean it up...)

The list goes on....

I'm not after Joe average. The normal guy back then didn't have a clue what was going on.
He just did what he was told, and believed it when his employer or the government said it was safe...

It wasn't a personal slam Bob, and I didn't think you were that old...
I just assumed you were younger.
I do what I can to keep things clean when I can...
We don't use non bio degradable anything. Even the carburetor cleaner is environmently responsible. (It will still raise a blister on shoe leather!)
Smells like an Orange bomb went of in the shop on hot days...

I just doesn't make sense not to take care of this rock when you can...

Later folks,
Aaron.



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post #8 of (permalink) Old 03-28-2000, 05:35 AM
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?, Hydrogen engine comment...

[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] It's really a matter of just being "aware" not some kind of fuzzy-faced enviro-fanatic. Like a buddy went to work several years ago for the railroad in the engine shops. When they needed to dispose of battery electrolite; and they had LOTS of that stuff; the shop guys showed him how to pour it down the little pipe that the big doors pinned to in the concrete floor. When he asked where it the stuff went, they said "Just down there." When he asked why they poured it in that hole they said: "Well,.....we've always done it that way."[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] There HAVE been mistakes made, and there HAS been intentional sneaky stuff, no doubt about it. My motto is: "If you can't do that forever without damaging SOMETHING, then it probably isn't a good thing to be doing." I'm secretly glad that we DO have a fanatic here and there to keep this country aware, and from becoming the environmental Titanic that many little newly-industrialized crapholes overseas have become as businesses from all over the world transfer operations there to avoid having to operate in a more responsible way. Taiwan, for example has so much solvent in the perched water table that the water will actually burn.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

CJDave
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post #9 of (permalink) Old 03-28-2000, 06:24 AM
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?

The big 3 auto makers do put some money into R&D. What I think is that GM came out with HEI before Ford had a "high output" system. I'm sure Ford did at least a buck $2.98 worth of R&D. I prefer to stick with original equipment manufacturers (OEM) parts. I bought the recommended everything. Put the cap and wires on with my old coil. Motorcraft wires have an additional coil wire that fits from new cap to old coil. Picked up a couple hundred rpm's and idles rock steady. Going to the junk yard tommorow for coil bracket, cover(?), and plug. PS I always thought it was bogus having the coil on top of the dist. cap. The coil should not be mounted on the engine at all to avoid vibration. Thank you very much 'TEAMRUSH'. What makes this whole thing work is the willingness for people to share information. Knowledge is power. Sharing it makes everybody better.

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post #10 of (permalink) Old 03-28-2000, 11:50 AM
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Re: TeamRush Clarification Please?, Hydrogen, curious, curious...

So, Aaron.... I'm curious, curious, curious..... What part of hydrogen testing/development/engine do you get to work with??? I'm really curious to know where the 'hydrogen-heads' have got-to in the last few years. Will you be working with a relatively common auto-type engine, testing/operationg it on hydrogen? In a dyno-lab environment, or 'chassis' environment? Is there an un-charted 'break-through' with hydrogen engines? Will you be working with the on-board storage/delivery/induction system? I hope you get to work with the ignition system, if it is for an ordinary auto-type engine. I recall some interesting hydrogen ignition system characteristics that I am sure you would be an expert at dealing-with. BTW, MSD was a relatively-new, just-forming, company, when I was first exposed to their 'not-yet-released' product. 'Back-when', MSD helped us a bunch with hydrogen ignition 'problems'. I wish I'd saved some of their original old hardware. As museum-pieces, I bet you would find the stuff interesting. Best of luck.

bobH
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