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post #1 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Man am I EVER relieved to see that GW may have at last earned your vote. A lot of what you say in your posts is right on, but on balance, we will be a lot safer with him than with a lying, envirowhacko like algore.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif[/img] I always think of the economy as being like the underground water table. When you have several dry years in a row, and pump the heck out of the water table, eventually it begins to drop. It takes a while but it does go down, sometimes significantly. After three years of drought and the water table is down 80 to 150 feet, you finally get a VERY wet winter. Does the table come up? Yeah, but not all that much. It takes time to come back up, just as it did to go down. You just cannot change a big and complex economy overnight, or even in a couple of years. That takes investment, and the confidence TO invest so that jobs can be created, and then the dollars that those jobs put into the economy creates more investment and so forth. If there was ANYTHING that the scumbag did right in the seven years he has been polluting the oval office it is that he DIDN'T TOUCH ANYTHING on the economy that he inherited from previous administrations. Giving him credit in that case for anything that has to do with the economy is like giving the stewardess credit for flying a 747 when she was sitting in the captain's seat while the plane was on autopilot. THE BIG advantage that we have had in the last eight years is that there has been an entire NEW economy grow up in the technology sector, and it has created scads of heretofore unknown jobs. That is a rare and unusual thing to have happen, and years from now economists will spend hours studying IT and as well as how it ended up. I'm not really WORRIED about the economy since I believe the cyber-economies have a ways to go yet before they hit the wall. My CHIEF concern is for the moral and "social" future of this country, and that is something that algore has already convinced me......and now you as well.......that he should not be trusted with. algore is anti-boy scout........how can he be good?[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

CJDave
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 09:19 AM
 
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

My only word of caution, with your thoughts that the newer high teck and on line industries have carried the day. Is that Japan version of the right wing totaly ran the same potentialy good engine into the ground, and sent their economy into a nasty recession on the verge of a depression. You talk a bit about perversion potentialy driving a nation into the ground, and I tend to agree, given that history has repeatedly shown this to fruition. But if your using history as a yard stick, lack of morality, is only as guilty as economic decadence.
Truth be known, I couldnt have voted for agore after about the first week of his heavy campaigning. The guy just has no gravel, and like i said earlier, he could easily best Don king, in the self promotion arena. I believe that agores stature alone may take some winds out of the sails, of our current prosperouse economics. But i also dont believe that anyone should use NRA brochures as their only political input.
Again I digress, as Im only trying to suggest a thorough thought process towards any decision, and not actual sway decisions in either direction.

Jeff
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I take my Jeep "On the Rocks",usually "With a Splash of Addrenalin"
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post #3 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 09:22 AM
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

Very true. Also remember, people, that the early 80's was during the Oil Embargo, and when the price goes up, the economy suffers. There is a definite lag effect of a few years. Prices now are going up, so do yourself a favor and start paying off those credit cards and loans, in a few years it'll really hurt. Right now we're in the good times, fuel prices a few years ago were tiny by comparison (about 40% of what they are now). Just FYI, fuel was $0.74 a gallon on January 22, 1999 and it's currently $1.76 a gallon now, and winter hasn't even hit yet. Fuel oil is supposed to go over $2.00 a gallon this year, the highest in recorded history. Even wood is going for $165 a cord, so everyone in the state is going to get hurt in the heating department. This and the mean income for the state is $16,000 a year.

A short lesson in micro and macro economics.

Think of it, when the fuel goes up, it costs more to drive to work. That's the short term effect. The longer term effect is higher prices arcoss the board. More money has to go to shipping a product, so the price is increased to reflect this. Due to the price increases, labor rates need to increase. It's a sliding scale and everything is adjusted up a notch. People want to maintain their lifestyle, so they borrow more, which is at a higher interest rate, and they're bringing in less, so extras start to get cut out as lifestyle adjustments are made to keep people from drowning. Federal money is in short supply due to all the people crying for help, so taxes are raised. This puts more of a burden on Joe citizen, who cuts more to make up for it.

What happened with Komrade Klinton was the recession ended and people found themselves making a ton of money and not having to pay out as much for utilities and other necessities. Well, the ride is over, and not due to the next president, so remember that when the excrement hits the fan.

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post #4 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 09:43 AM
 
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

Let me see if Im getting this correct.
Durring the oil Embargos of the 80s, it was those damn OPEC Nations, but now that OPEC is up to their same old [email protected], its now being blamed on an uninfluential president, trying to drive up prices for political purposes under the noses of the watchfull eye of the republican held House and Senate. Or have I got the whole cause and effect scenario wrong, and you are really trying to say thet our current prosperity is actualy the result of the Democratic strength in the House and Senate durring the 70s and 80s and early 90s. No one can take all the credit, when the economy is going strong and shunt all the blame when its waining. That deffinitely makes people feel like no one is at the helm, which is kinda how I feel at the present. I think with a lot less in-fighting between the Republicans that we currently have in power, we could have avoided a lot of our current public land pproblems, but they did not nothing to try to put the binders on a slack jawed vice president with a personal agenda. What makes you think theyll stand up to the industrial machine, to help protect the ecology, if needed in the near future.

Jeff
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 01:26 PM
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

Let's get a little more basic. We can argue forever about whether Regan's policies are producing today's economy etc., but the answers to our current as well as past problems is much more basic.

It boils down to right and wrong. First automatic response is xxx is right and yyy is wrong, and the next person says NO, that's all wrong. xxx is wrong and yyy is only right when zzz is present.

Even using terms like right, wrong, good, evil, bad etc are in themselves contributing factors to CAUSING problems instead of solving them.

Proper termonology should be something like: there are things that contribute to the health and total well being of EVERYONE, as individuals and as groups, and there are things that degrade the health and total well being of EVERYONE who ingages in those things, and MOST of those things are cumulative over time and often do not show immediate or short term result. What chance would Clinton have of staying in office during Washington's time, Truman's time, Nixon's time? Or ANYTIME prior to the '90s?

There are things that ABSOLUTELY CONTRIBUTE to humanity's well being. There are things that ABSOLUTELY DEGRADE humanity's well being, and it doesn't make any difference how we feel or think about those things. It's etched in stone, and our involvement in those things ABSOLUTELY WILL have an effect on us as individuals and humanity in general.

OR

Nothing is certain, everything is relative and things and activities are fluid in their relationship to our well being. "A living constitution - subject to change by interpretation???" "Not black or white, but shades of gray??"

Long ago and far away the following is reported to have happened:

"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'" "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

There are so many obvious lies in those statements, that the final one, the most important one is kinda overlooked because it seems logical on it's face. "...you will be like God, knowing good and evil." The obvious lie in that statement is "be like God", the concealed lie is "knowing good and evil". The implication is that the woman would then be able to recognize what is good and what is evil. NOT SO! The TRUTH is that at that moment mankind, through Eve, took it upon itself to decide what is good and what is evil rather than relying on what God says is good and what God says is evil, or more correctly what will hurt mankind and what will help mankind. Right then and right there "gray vs black and white" and "situational ethics" was born.

There are absolutes, and they absolutely will cause absolute results. The problems that you see around you every day are the result of people believing, really and truly believing certain ways, and other people just as sincerely believing differently. The only thing that can be said for that situation is they CANNOT both be right, and there is a possibility that neither is right.

There are those who say, "there ARE NO absolutes." Another absolute. We both ABSOLUTELY cannot be right. I say EVERYTHING is absolute. Nothing is what it isn't. EVERYTHING IS ABSOLUTELY WHAT IT IS, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS AND NOTHING ELSE. Whether we understand it or recognize it is only relevant in its effect on us NOT its reality. The wise seek knowledge over acceptance.

Doug '97 TJ
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 02:15 PM
 
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

Hmmmmmmmmm, Uhhhhhhhhhh, ???????,
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Just kidding Doug,
Very profound, and a bit too philosophical, for a guy like me, who gets paid to yell at construction workers all day long, then have beer with them at the end of the day.

Jeff
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 02:59 PM
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

Man, Doug, my head is hurting. Feels like I'm back in school. Like one of those circular references computer programs spit back at you, "Syntax Error"!

I know where you're coming from though, and you're right. I'm more of a "Cause and effect" type of guy myself, and the more "causes", the different the "effect" will be.

JEEPN
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] Yow! Doug....it will take me just a bit longer to really absorb that.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Hmmmmmmm........er,[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] yeah,......I THINK so.....er,.....hmmmmmmm. I'm sort of an absolutist person [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif[/img] if I had to say one way or the other. You know how engineer types are.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] We make terrible liberals [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif[/img].....too unemotional.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img] The MAIN THING is that H8Monday will be voting for Bush. There were two voters that I was losing sleep over; one is H8 and the other is my daughter the professor who STILL thinks algore is the answer. I only have a few weeks left to change her mind. Otherwise she will be cancelling out MY vote. Actually with this stupid electoral college business my vote will be negated by the hordes of liberals in CA claiming the state for algore.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

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post #9 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 06:25 PM
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

All I was saying was that it is not up to man to determine what is right/wrong or good/evil. When man makes the decision about what is acceptable or unacceptable, there are too many different people with too many different ideas. It is written what is good and what is evil. Whether you believe it or not or however you interpret or don't interpret, does not alter the reality of it.

To examine the results of a lying president, a dead body on the street, a plague of locust or a race of people obliterated from the earth is an exercise in futility. You don't cure the problem by removing the president from office or finding a cure for the pox. All that does is treat the symptom and not the root cause of the problem.

Eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil does not give the person the actual knowledge of good and evil nor the ability to recognize what is good and what is evil. That's the satanic lie. Instead it says that man takes the responsibility to determine what is good and what is evil. In and of himself man does not have that ability, just like a dog or cat cannot make that determination. As proof consider anything under the sun that you think is wrong - no, you know ABSOLUTELY that it is wrong. Well, some society either now or in history has practiced that activity and thought of it as a good thing to do for some reason of their own. Which of you is right? Sez who???



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post #10 of (permalink) Old 10-10-2000, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: OT-WHEW! Thanks, H8!!!

[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I see what you are driving at here, Doug. VERY good way to put it too, I must say.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

CJDave
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