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MORE LAND CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC

2K views 46 replies 9 participants last post by  Junk Yard Genius 
#1 ·
I am the executor of family lands my grandparents left behind in a trust to take care of my parents generation.
Most of it is farm land, and will be decided among the grand kids when the last of the parents generation passes away.

There is 460 acres, give or take an acre or two, that is pretty worthless scrub land down by the river.
I normally allow wheelers of all kinds to use it for whatever....
The river changes it every spring, and most falls, so it's not buildable or farmable for the most part.
It's got sand hills, rock hills, lots of scrub trees and underbrush... Just perfect for a Saturday afternoon trail ride and cookout.
Lots of camping goes on down there.

Our family is the only one that hasn't fenced out and prosecuted the off roaders down there,
We have put up with the trash, the broken glass the fights, the traffic and accidents...
--------------------------------

But that ends today.
Saturday night/ Sunday morning about 8 Bubba boys decided to drive through 180 acres of corn and 160 acres of beans.
Looks like the did a pretty good job of tearing up the hay pasters after the last rain also.

This has happened before, and we have over looked it, but I have decided that this is the last time.

I guess it wasn't costing us enough for the extra taxes because of the 'Recreation' designation on that property.
I guess it wasn't costing us enough for the extra insurance for the 'Recreation' designation the tax people put on it, and the 'Public Access'....
I guess it wasn't costing us enough for the time, labor and cost at the dump to get rid of two or three pickup truck loads of trash every month.
I guess it wasn't costing us enough for the trash barrels that kept getting shot up, run over and disappearing.

I left it open to the general public because it's a favorite fishing and outdoor spot, and has been sense the time grandpa bought it in the 40's, and he always kept it free and open to all.
I've been putting up with this sense '94, and it's over as of today.

I'm having all trails blocked, and all ways in and out cabled off.
I'm having extra patrols by the county sheriff's office, with orders to arrest anyone that isn't an employee.

If you wheel in southern Indiana, Steep Banks and Flat Rock is off limits as of this morning, from the old Ferry Landing to the State Fish & Wildlife Property, Which, by the way, is off limits also.

No Hunting, No Fishing, No Picnics, No Wheeling, No Motocross, No Boat Launching (yes, we own the boat ramp too), No Mushroom Hunting, No Trespassing Of Any Kind.
The County Sheriff's and the State Fish and Game Wardens have already been notified to arrest anyone that is found beyond the signs on the county road.


"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"
 
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#27 ·
Re: LESS NAME CALLING

Re: DRM's comments.........

I suppose your right..........

I've never seen the land and can't say for sure that there is a better solution than closing the area off and going ballistic everytime someone enters the land. For all I know it may not have much 4wheeling value at all anyway.

I guess it is a sore spot with me right now because we are currently facing a land closer of some of the best 'wheeling in Canada. This is not due to vandalise, but poor municipal beauracracy. The area is a favorite dumping ground for morons, but the local clubs, and myself and my friends all help to keep it clean.

It just "seems" to an outsider that not much effort has been put into keeping it open. I could be wrong, but that's the way it "appears" to me. Apart from doing regular trail clean-up runs, I exercise a lot of effort in educating newbies, and the general public about our sport. I also "observe, record, and report".

If a local land owner had a track of land that was used by 'wheelers, but they were having problems, I would be the first to offer a hand to try to keep it open, clean, and patrol the area if need be. It's TR's land so he can do whatever he likes with it, but if it was mine I would probably do "everything" I could to make it work for "responsible" 'wheelers.

jo-jo
http://island4x4.com/ Vancouver Island, B.C., Canada...eh!
 
#28 ·
Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

jo-jo,
I thought 'weenier' was the strongest thing I should use about the Al Gore comment.
You weren't calling me a child molester or terrorist, just a clueless rich brat (Gore)...
At least you aren't trying to bait me in this thread, and you make a valid point.

As for DRM, it's best if I just continue to ignore him.
He makes no valid points, and he's just baiting us anyway, so what's the point?
--------------------------------

Too bad this BBS format doesn't have an 'Ignore' button... That would come in handy.
If it just deleted all of the his posts, and a few other's posts before I got them, It would save me a lot of time trying to wade through stuff that contains nothing to help me anyway, and I could spend that time doing something I enjoy.
--------------------------------

As for the education, I supply the land for the local 4-H fourwheelers to go trail riding on.
It's close to the highway (a curse in this situation), has plenty of parking, chip and seal pavement connecting it to the county road, (compliments of the local paving company, who's owner is the 4-H director, thanks Ben!), and it's just about 7 miles from the center of town.

My back injuries won't allow for me to ride anything like a 4-wheeler right now, but I'm due for surgery later this year that will allow me to do hands on again.

I do help in the class room, and I took the recent pictures of the Jeep crash as graphic examples of what can happen. I'm sure from the reaction I got from the junior instructors, they will be an effective tool.

The 4-H'ers and the law enforcement/ rescue training are the only groups we will still allow.
Those kids always come back with a trash bag full of garbage, but they shouldn't be expected to pick up porno magazines, used condoms, and broken beer and liquor bottles, hundreds of beer cans, and rotting food remains.... Along with the other trash... All of which they have found on the trails in the past.

Plus riding on trashed up trails desensitizes the kids to garbage on the trails...
It will get to where they don't even register that it's there.
---------------------------------

I will still allow the 4-H kids to use the land, and the neighbors to deer and squirrel hunt, and fish down there.
It's not the neighbors tearing things up, and they don't have to tear up fences and barricades to get access to adjoining properties.
Little 4-wheelers can still get through the trees and boulders we plan.

(We have lots of boulders down there, we keep them to keep the river bank from washing away, so the rock climbing guys like the spot.)
--------------------------------

As for an adult 4X4 group, I don't think there is enough adults here mature enough to carry off a club.
All of the mature adults I know that are professional enough to form a club are already working with 4-H, or the law/ fire department crews.

Maybe though, I'll ask around...
That is a fair suggestion, and I would gladly accept donated time to help with the cleanup.
I don't expect anyone to throw in money, but the extra hands would be just fine!!

I fully intend that property to look like a private park by the end of summer/ early fall.
Everyone that works the farm is on the clean up crew, but we pay all those guys.
They do a great job, and the HUGE industrial dumpster is supposed to be delivered today, so things are under way.
Even through the rain in the last two days, the guys have filled up two hay wagons with 4' side boards to overflowing, and they still aren't done with just the parking area yet.
All this was cleaned up spotless over the winter last year....
--------------------------------

Maybe we'll open it up to limited access later on, like next summer, but it's closed for the duration of this year, and it will never be open to the general public again.
I just can't justify the expense in both money and manpower to keep it up.

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"
 
#29 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

Hi Aaron

Speaking of rubbish , there is this spot here where I live that is not far from town and is basically a small mountain with TONS of trails etc..We have been using it for more than 20+ years . It is owned privately and the last bunch of times we were there the whole place was beginning to look like a dump . Even old fridges and ovens up there. And the usual things people dont want to take to the dump , gyproc and stuff like that . What is really scarey is that it takes a "good" 4x4 to get up there and I find it difficult to believe that people who spend all that money on thier wheels go through all the risk and trouble of going up a hairy trail to save 10 bucks at the dump. It is sickening . We were going to go and clean it up but the local county crew were up there with a loader and stuff bringing it all out . Now there is a BIG ditch blocking access. If we could just catch the bastards , well it wouldn`t have been a pleasant sight. Even though I dont own this piece of property I understand your frustration being an owner . On this sight the tax payers had to pay the clean up bill because the property borders a highway , this is what the crew told us . My .02 worth

Jeff

Happy Owner of a 1979 CJ5
Almost finished /wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif ( Ya Right ! )

There`s No Such Thing As Surface Rust
 
#30 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

I personally think it's a great idea to shut everyone off totally. Make everyone aware of it, and have them get "used" to it, so they won't come around. Block everything off and post the snot out of it. It's unfortunate to those who use it properly, but here's the catch.

Like you mentioned, in a year or so, start opening it back up again, not to the public, but to select groups. Others will see it's open, but not to the public, and they'll have to ask permission to use the land. Then the trash and damage can be more controlled and the people using the land will have a vested interest in not only keeping it clean, but keeping others out. Drastic measures have drastic consequences, and sometimes it takes drastic action to straighten everything out. What do you think?

If I were even remotely close, I'd help out cleaning it up, but I'm not, so good luck.

JEEPN
'81 CJ-8 Scrambled!
GM151/SM465/NP205 twinstick/7" Lift/33" Swampers/REP 8000/RS9000's/Scout II D44's F&R w/4.10's & Lockrights
 
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#31 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

I'd have to add my 2-cents with JEEPN. Close it off like Fort Knox and let the word slither around the slime-sucking-hairball world that the place is bad news. They'll go lurking somewhere else. When they've all found someplace else to destroy and basically forgotten about your property, open it up on a LIMITED basis. Heck, even charge a fee for it. I have no problems paying to help upkeep a place that I like to go - it keeps the genetic mutants of humanity out.
 
#32 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

As usual TR, you can't comprehend any criticism, even though I agreed with your closing of the area. But I forgive you /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

As for DRM, it's best if I just continue to ignore him.
He makes no valid points, and he's just baiting us anyway, so what's the point?


As to me not making valid points - If you had read my post, you would see that I agreed with you - by your stance your OWN points aren't valid... interesting...

Your hypocricy continues... but I still forgive you /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

 
#33 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

I don't know JEEPN. As much as I would like to see something like that, I can say I would be hard pressed if I were in TR's place to open the land back up...

Sad to say I know.../wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif

But it sure seems like the ratio of punks to adults there is way out of hand, and TR says he has tried some rather harsh tactics before without results. Sure seems like these poeple just don't get it...

I can only speak for myself, but with the type of damage, monetary loss, and time spent handling this serious problem, I know I would have to have a lot of incentive to open it back up. Trust is good, but hard to prove it exists once it has been broken...

I know most of us here would sit home every weekend rather than 4 wheel illegally - to me, it is hard to comprehend how these poeple can destroy property like that... I just don't get it /wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif

 
#34 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

Attila said essentially what I was going to throw out there for you to consider, TR. Close it, clean it, patrol it and only allow the 4-H and law/rescue folks in. Next Spring/Summer, do like they do up at the Badlands...charge to get in. You have a gated entrance and a Checkpoint Charlie at another gate between the parking area and the trail entrance where they check-in, sign a waiver and pay. Since you're paying extra money for the insurance and the clean-up, you may as well stop giving out a free lunch...the responsible folks will understand this and gladly pay. The punks might grumble and groan, but they'll pay if they wanna play and if they don't wanna play by YOUR rules, eject them.
 
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#35 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

I'd have to say that even limited opening of the land can appear to be an invitation to the "general public", and unfortunate that it might be, permanent closure for all but the most select groups seems more than warranted. And if I had the chance to confiscate a few vehicles (likely worth well less than the damage they inflicted) in this instance, I wouldn't hesitate one bit. Sends a clear message - one that you can be assured will spread quicker than a drunken cheerleader on prom night.

I too would have suggested involving the local club (one around here has unofficial permission from USFS Rangers to drive unauthorized trails thanks to the amount of trash they retrieve), but if the local club's president is one of the perps, it's no wonder that tactic proved less than adequate. As with anything good, a few d---heads can screw it all up for the rest of us. And I sure don't blame TR for tiring of those d---heads.

TEX

http://sites.netscape.net/gumboracing
 
#36 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

The sheriff called this morning and said they chased some dirt bikers out yesterday afternoon, but they were locals (and related), so no harm, no foul.
the seizure made yesterday evenings news paper on the front page (drugs, guns... Great propaganda for the cops)
So everyone knows now the old Ferry landing is off limits.

Turns out, we caught the vice-president and the secretary of the local 4X4 club....
Also turns out the president of the local 4X4 club won't let the sheriff see his jeep...
We can't prove anything, but the message has been sent, and received loud and clear.

Now we wait for the 'Bully Boys' and the 'Bubba' types to try and prove how tough they are...

We get old appliances, especially refrigerators sense it costs $15 to have them drained of freon and tagged so the dump will take them...
We get old cars and car parts.
Construction materials, old roofing material ect...
We are sorting into different dumpsters to see if there is any salvage we can recover.
Scrap metals are up right now, but I don't know of any market for used disposable diapers...
(I HATE BABY DIAPERS!!)

It's much easier to get in and out of the dump, and it's only like $2 a ton to dump...
I don't get it...

People dump a lot of brush and yard waste down there.
The city will come to your house, and vacuum leaves and grass, and grind trees for free here.
They use them for mulch and compost, and it saves the city a fortune not having to buy that stuff, but they still load it up and take it out there to dump it.
It's beyond me....

Later folks, thanks for the support!
Aaron.

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"
 
#37 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

Well TR - I guess that explains why the local club was unwilling to help - they are part of the riff-raff.../wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif IMHO they aren't "bubba's" as bubba's generaly don't know beter and just think that type of stuff is normal. The people in the 4wd club should know better - maybe there should be a better term for them - more descriptive /wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif

I just can't get over how bad it seems to be there - we have our problems on smaller scales here, but nothing as bad as that in one place.

Sounds like the publicity may help out - best of luck...

 
G
#38 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

David,

Don't take this the WRONG way, welcome to the real world. Where I park my carcass every night I consider to be safe, go out around here at night and the "street urchins" are everywhere. I saw what was coming here along time ago and put bars on my windows, my neighbors thought I was CraZY /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif but now they would like to have them. The only other person close, that has them is the local police, that tells me something. The trails around here are all junked up, I'm afraid half the time of getting something stuck in a tire. I continually pick up trash wherever I go and it don't look like it helps but I won't stop, anyway I'm ramblin, gotta go, later.

Fluke /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
 
#39 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif It's just like a lot of things.....you get just a select few vandalizing, or dumping, or running over everything, and it seems like an army. Like it only takes two brats to break into a dozen houses in a formerly 'safe" neighborhood and everyone thinks it's a crime wave. Making a good, publicized bust will go a long way toward getting that sort of activity to cease. Dumping garbage in the country is real risky now because people sift it for clues, and usually find SOMETHING....like even a tire serial number.....which will lead right back to the culprit, and the penalty is HUGE. Or you can do like one of our neighbors did when we were farming....he found a clue.....and then another.....and another...all leaing to the same guy who lived in town, so....one morning at 6AM the dumper guy heard a the sound of a GarWood hoist on the front lawn, and a 14 foot flatbed dump truck (ours) was in the process of dumping the guys crap back on the lawn. Of course the truck just happened to have half a load of gravel in the bottom. It must have been real tough to mow the lawn after that./wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif

CJDave
Quadra-Tracs modified While-U-Wait by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Quadra-Trac Team./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif
 
G
#42 ·
Re: vigilante tactics....

In reply to:

As nice as that sounds from a "satisfaction" standpoint, I can hardly bring myself to condone such vigilante tactics....
I agree, that kind of stuff is best left to the proper authorities. Things like that can get out of hand, and someone might get hurt (and maybe not the right person)./wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif Still, it's a great story......one of those things I wish a could do, but have the sense not too./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif

BTW, I'm one of those "sifters"./wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif

jo-jo
http://island4x4.com/ Vancouver Island, B.C., Canada...eh!
 
#43 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif You can get away with that in a small town. In a big city, the "excuseitis" lawyers would make that scumbag look like a "victim". That was about the same time that the local football coach's kid ran off the road and into one of our orchards and damaged his pickup while in the process of destroying our mailbox; just as he had done to about thirty others on that road. I was going to remove his pickup with the 14A D8 dozer, but my Dad called the feds instead; since beating up a mailbox is a federal rap. That was a very scary experience for both "big" coach AND "little" coach; not to mention embarassing. We held the pickup for several days till the insurance company cut us a check for the damage, then Uncle Sam got his pound of flesh after that./wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif We had an epidemic of mailbox bashings there for a while./wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif.....CJ (Vigilante)...Dave

CJDave
Quadra-Tracs modified While-U-Wait by the crack moonguy/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif Quadra-Trac Team./wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif
 
#44 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

Well, the tallies are in for the first week of cleanup...
17 TONS of trash, and one huge construction type dumpster has been filled, and disposed of.

Steel, aluminum, plastic and glass are being sorted if they are found loose, but we aren't opening trash bags or going through anything that is scooped up by the bucket loader. One aluminum can pile is already larger than a normal dumpster.

The parking and fishing areas are almost done, and we are going to do the road last, cause stuff keeps falling off the wagons and dumpsters.

I have three sets of washers and dryers, and one extra washer, no less that 9 refrigerators, two freezers, three car frames, three mostly complete cars stripped of anything usable, and enough garbage to open a land fill...
About fifty truck tires, still branded with the name of the trucking company they came from... (real bright).

17 Fifty five gallon drums pulled out of the river and off the river bank that EPA has to test first before we can get rid of them... Looks like used engine oil to me, but you can never tell...
(I suspect the same trucking company...)

One large pile of asbestos siding shingles off an old house. At least four different styles of shingles, so I assume one of the local contractors has been dumping here what the landfill won't take...
That's going to cost a fortune to have cleaned up....

One pile of old computer parts that someone else has been using for target practice.

One old travel trailer from about the 60's, shot to pieces.

No car tires, but that was explained later...

One 'BUNKER' built into a sand bank in the woods using old car tires for the construction material.
It's pretty well built, and REAL well camouflaged, and if a tractor hadn't dropped a wheel off on the roof, we would never have found it.
The guy that did that put a lot of thinking and effort into it, and carved it right out of the sandstone in places...
If I find the guy, I'm going to hire him, cause he's not lazy by any means, and he's real creative...
I just hope the next UNI-Bomber isn't living in our river bottoms.

There was some personal stuff, and provisions for washing cloths and dishes made of plastic 5 gallon buckets, and clean cloths inside.
No weapons, no filth, so we just left it as we found it.
It may be just someone down on his luck, or someone trying to sort things out, and he's not causing trouble, so I don't care if he stays....

We also found about 20 Marijuana plants growing next to the river. The local sheriff is interested in finding out who those belong to...
They have been weeded a lot better than my garden or flower beds, and what looks like fertilized...
I understand the sheriff is having someone babysit the plants so they don't feel mistreated and leave...

We still have 450 acres of trails to clean up, and a mile or so of river bank to clean up, but we are well under way.
It's starting to look like I remember it as a kid, only no as big.....(if you know what I mean)

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"
 
#45 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

TR, just a suggestion, but your might try to find out who left the stuff, especially the oil. Environmental cleanup is a huge responsibility, but not just the surface stuff. If those barrels had been there awhile, it's possible some goundwater contamination exists, and that's very expensive to clean up. I'd go after every person possible, and track them down, then sue them all in court to cover the costs and "improvements".

The wife and I looked at a house awhile back that had a manufacturing facility out back (about 100,000 sq ft) and poking around we found some old barrels. They turned out to be a mixture, but looked like oil. Well, working in the environmental field, we used the GC (Gas Chromatograph, like in Medicine Man) to analyze the soils and water. The water table appeared fine, but 20 years down the road there may be a problem. The soils were a little hot, but not smoking, so we investigated more. We informed the real estate company, who got pissed, and the owners. The owners wouldn't agree to an enviromental clause in the contract, so we decided against the house. I hear the Department of Environmental Protection did some soil borings this summer, and had to check the drainage field under the concrete slab. Needless to say, these little things can run into the millions of dollars really quick, and I'd want to make sure everyone that dumped there was labeled (via small claims court) so you could come back later and collect cleanup money if the need arose. Just a suggestion, but you're a lot more lenient than I would be if I were in your shoes.

BTW, those stats are positively amazing, I'm sure all of us had no concept of the problem's magnitude.

JEEPN
'81 CJ-8 Scrambled!
GM151/SM465/NP205 twinstick/7" Lift/33" Swampers/REP 8000/RS9000's/Scout II D44's F&R w/4.10's & Lockrights
 
#47 ·
Re: Good Suggestions, & An Offer To Help...

We had a very mild winter here, so to keep the guys busy, we had them clean things up down there.
So it's all from the past eight or nine months...

The barrels are not leaking, and we are waiting for results....
If it's just oil and antifreeze, like I think it is, we'll be OK.
We have them on concrete and under roof, and the local law is tracing serial and lot numbers of the original contents of the barrels.

The truck tires are differently going to court.
We know exactly where they come from because they guys weren't smart enough to remove their company brand from them...
We have been given thirty days to get them under roof, or destroy them via a qualified disposal site.
We are removing the brands (for court), and disposing of them by chopping them up and paying the local paver to accept them as fill in the pavement mixture.
The price of deposal is being added to the damage they did while here. (environmental impact)
I hear the fines from EPA are going to be staggering!

We have identified at least one of the dumpers of asbestos siding, or should I say, the EPA investigator did...
He found a yard sign in the debris with the name of a local contracting company....
As I understand, the EPA will be picking this up.
They have a really cool foam they spray on the pile to keep fibers from becoming airborne!!
Really cool to watch.

It's just a damned shame that they had to steal the trash barrels, dump garbage and toxic waste, and in general act like a bunch of rabid animals. That has been a site open to the public sense the 20's that I know of.
It's where my grandma and grandpa met on a picnic, that's why we have kept it all these years.
They would turn over in their graves if they could see it now.

The local 4-H club wants to hold their local outdoor jamboree out there sense we have a paved road now, and sense they are the only group that has offered to help with clean up, I think they will.
We don't want them out there yet, too much trash and potentially dangerous stuff.
Next month should do the trick, if there is nothing really nasty in the barrels....

Just in time for the Jamboree!
They like the local church camp (they have indoor bathrooms), but they can't take animals and 4-wheelers there.
We don't care about such things....

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"
 
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