Off-Road Forums & Discussion Groups

Off-Road Forums & Discussion Groups (https://forums.off-road.com/forum.php)
-   Jeep-Short Wheelbase (https://forums.off-road.com/jeep-short-wheelbase/)
-   -   Wiring electric fan for thermostat and dash toggle??? (https://forums.off-road.com/jeep-short-wheelbase/232008-wiring-electric-fan-thermostat-dash-toggle.html)

Warthog 04-22-2009 10:43 AM

Wiring electric fan for thermostat and dash toggle???
 
Hey guys,

Been doing some searching around here and with google, but couldn't seem to find a good answer to this issue.

My clutch fan is on it's way out, so I picked up a good electric fan out of a 5.9l Grand Cherokee at the Jeep wreckers and plan on adding it to the old 4.0l in the YJ. Now what I would like to do is have a three position toggle on the dash as well as have an adjustable thermostat:
position 1 - overide on(incase the the fan doesn't kick on for some reason)
position 2 - overide off(for any reason i would want to turn it off, say water crossing or something)
position 3 - auto(controlled by thermostat)

Now I am no wiring genius, but I can follow instructions pretty accurately. Will this be possible to do, or am I trying to fit 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag? If I have the override on, is it worth it to have the adjustable thermostat, or should I just go with a good single temp one? Or can it be wired to just take a reading right from the stock temp sensor?

Also, it seems everyone and there dog makes fan wiring kits and adjustable thermostat kits. Any suggestions on which one to go with?

Thanks again for the help.

CJ7Taz 04-22-2009 12:18 PM

What would you like to use, a toggle or rotary switch?

You need a single pole - double throw with center off position switch (center off because that is common). You could also use a three position switch like a Jeep wiper switch or 3 position fan switch. You wire the load to the common lug and the different sources to what is normally the load lugs.

I would assume your temp sensor provides a ground when the set temp is reached. That means you need to wire +12v power to one side of the relay. Wire the other side of the relay to the common lug on the switch. Wire your temp switch to a lug and wire the remaining lug to ground.

Jim_Lou 04-22-2009 02:35 PM

You mean single pole, double throw?

CJ7Taz 04-22-2009 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim_Lou (Post 1544169)
You mean single pole, double throw?

Yeah, I did. Double pole Ė single pole would be hard to find.

TeamRush 04-23-2009 12:59 AM

I've covered this a bunch of times on other forums...

And it's back to basics!
APPLICATION, APPLICATION, APPLICATION!

What kind of driving/wheeling do you do,
And what do you expect out of your system?

First off,
Circuit protection is MANDATORY, and CRITICAL in some applications!
I use self resetting circuit breakers instead of fuses.
Every time you forget to turn the fans off and hit deep water, you are going to hit the circuit protection!

Fans can suck up to 70 or 80 amps when you drag them down in water, so roughly a 15 to 30 amp breaker is a good idea.

If you use fuses or fusible links, you are going to spend a BUNCH of time changing fuses if you do water/mud a lot!

Secondly,
Don't forget a 'Oh Sh!t' light/buzzer!
Just like you will forget to turn the fans OFF,
You are likey to forget to turn them back ON when you clear the water/mud, and that can get SERIOUS QUICKLY!

I use a low oil pressure/high temprature light and buzzer,
(buzzer because I don't watch the gauges/lights when I'm wheeling! Most people don't!)

That light/buzzer will tell you when to turn the fans back ON after you turn them off, and just might save your engine in the process!

Third,
Do you want to use DUAL fans, or have a 'Soft Start' on the fans?
Dual fans can come on staggered so they don't draw a bunch of amperage all at once with them both starting at the same time,
'Soft Start' is reduced current to the fans to start them slowly, then direct current to them for maximum cooling speed...

Now, What I have is fans that turn on automatically (redundancy, they turn on no matter what unless I command them 'OFF')
Saves an 'ON OVERRIDE' circuit...

And I have a switch to turn the fans off when I want them off... Good for water/mud fording mostly.

Fourth,
Consider an automatic switch hooked up so it turns the fans ON/Off (unless you override) automatically when you hit deep water.
Like a sump pump switch with float,
Or a boat bilge pump switch,
It would interrupt the fan relay circuit when the float gets into enough water that it 'Floats'...

Fifth,
Consider DUAL fans for redundancy if you wheel off the beaten path.
'76 forward Jeeps have a radiator that accepts Ford Contour (Taurus, Topaz, ect.) DUAL fans really well,
And the fans are COMMERCIAL GRADE, not the cheap crap you usually get from the parts stores.
They come with good (Water Tight) connectors, and they fit like a glove.

If one fan quits, you can 'LIMP HOME' on the remaining fan, and all it costs you is an extra relay (about $12).

I have a '73 jeep, so it has a 'Pusher' in front of the radiator, and a 'Puller' in the back of the radiator.
One is a Hayden I purchased off the shelf at Advanced Auto, the other is from an '89 Cadillac and it works well!
Since the radiator is smaller in the early AMC Jeeps, I couldn't use the Taurus/Topaz/Contour fan set, although I've put a few in for other people...

So let me know what you want to do, and I'll try and link you to some wiring diagrams that will help you out.

Booger 04-23-2009 08:57 AM

The other day when I was in the electric supply they had a whole wall full of SP/DT, SP/ST, DP/DT and just palin old SP toggle and pushbutton switches. They are not hard to find, IF, you know what you're looking at and if you listen to taz better have the fire dept standing by.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"

CJ7Taz 04-23-2009 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544209)
The other day when I was in the electric supply they had a whole wall full of SP/DT, SP/ST, DP/DT and just palin old SP toggle and pushbutton switches. They are not hard to find, IF, you know what you're looking at ...

Whatís Sarah got to do with this?

He needs center off for his application.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544209)
... and if you listen to taz better have the fire dept standing by.

Ya know youíre near the top of the mountain when those below you are always trying to knock you off.

Rather than attacking me, using the Tonya Harding approach, you could try the Nancy Kerrigan approach and spend the time bettering yourself. You could come away with some benefits but thatís probably too hard for you.

Booger 04-23-2009 04:20 PM

Just a mis-spell palin has nothing to do with it, you're on on top of a pile of dung, the last place I want to be, I never claimed to be on top of nothing. I know one thing for certain, you don't know electric. We're not in bootcamp anymore, or the army, just stating the facts Mam.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"

CJ7Taz 04-23-2009 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544217)
I know one thing for certain, you don't know electric.

You have anything to base that on or you just like going around making accusations without substantiation (the internet equivalent of breaking kneecaps)?

What do bootcamp and the army have to do with anything? Those surely arenít misspellings.

And itís maíam.

JeepDawg 04-23-2009 08:24 PM

I am quite happy with me DC Control variable speed fan controller..

One toggle switch...center off...up, bat to the AC input...forces the fan on not matter what....down pos applies power from the ign input....translation, center off...up, full speed, down, normal variable operation....

Love the thing....I get on the fwy...it shuts down because the air moving through the radiator is enough to cool the water.....city traffic...fan runs at slow to a med speed....I have yet to see it go to full speed....not hot enough outside yet....

TeamRush 04-24-2009 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544209)
The other day when I was in the electric supply they had a whole wall full of SP/DT, SP/ST, DP/DT ...

I noticed more than one can't separate Pole Count from Throw...

Any of them start posting wiring diagrams is when I'll start to be impressed.

Anyway, Single Pole/Double Throw WITH/Center 'Off' is what some of you are trying to spit out.

Most common Double Throw switches you will find will be DOUBLE POLE, meaning TWO CIRCUITS through the switch,
One will just be unused...

PERSONALLY,
When I deep water ford, I use the second circuit in the switch to turn ON air pressure to my axles, transmission, transfer case, ignition, ect. so I don't drown the vehicle and wind up replacing expensive synthetic gear oil and trying to dry out the ignition...

Pretty simple to do, but we will need the OP to let us know what fans he wants to use before I can work up some wiring diagrams that will be the most efficient...
----------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepDawg (Post 1544232)
I am quite happy with me DC Control variable speed fan controller..

One toggle switch...center off...up, bat to the AC input...forces the fan on not matter what....down pos applies power from the ign input....translation, center off...up, full speed, down, normal variable operation....

Love the thing....I get on the fwy...it shuts down because the air moving through the radiator is enough to cool the water.....city traffic...fan runs at slow to a med speed....I have yet to see it go to full speed....not hot enough outside yet....

I don't have a three speed controller, but I have the same deal with mine shutting off on highway, and it kicks on a weird times!
Mine is directly wired, so even after I park the vehicle and shut the engine off, the fan can come on... And that freaks people out sometimes...!

When you are working on it, you want to make sure you shut the fans off before sticking your hands down in there!

CJ7Taz 04-24-2009 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamRush (Post 1544239)
I noticed more than one can't separate Pole Count from Throw...

Guess you are going to have to point out the problem for me. I missed your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamRush (Post 1544239)
Most common Double Throw switches you will find will be DOUBLE POLE, meaning TWO CIRCUITS through the switch,
One will just be unused...

Where are you finding all of these DP/DT with one unused circuit? Double pole is not that common. Most houses have a couple of SP/DT used in the wiring. They are used in pairs.

Wiring diagrams ainít gonna impress me. Iíve seen thousands, drawn hundreds of them. They are pretty simple.

The original poster already told you what fan he was using:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthog (Post 1544145)
... I picked up a good electric fan out of a 5.9l Grand Cherokee ...

He told you how he wants it to work:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthog (Post 1544145)
Now what I would like to do is have a three position toggle on the dash as well as have an adjustable thermostat:
position 1 - overide on(incase the the fan doesn't kick on for some reason)
position 2 - overide off(for any reason i would want to turn it off, say water crossing or something)
position 3 - auto(controlled by thermostat)

So whatís hard about that? No need to complicate it. I assumed he would he would use some kind of circuit protection or would at least come back and ask when he got to that point.

Warthog 04-24-2009 07:58 AM

Hey guys,

took me a couple days to get back here...been busy workin out here floatin on a boat in the G.O.M.....nice to see you've been keeping yourselves entertained slaggin each other while I was gone...or CJ7TAZ more so ;).

Anyway, I think JeepDawg has the same setup as what I'm looking for, except rather than an ignition on(I'm assuming the fan automatically comes on as soon as you turn the key, I'd rather have it come on automatically when the thermostat hits a certain tempurature.

And the switch I planned on is an On/Off/On switch. I would like to wire in the warning light/buzzer. Have to agree, very good idea.

CJ7Taz was right, I did mention the fan is out of a 5.9l Grand Cherokee, not sure if many of you are familiar with this fan or not. I just grabbed it and haven't played with it yet...it's a three wire setup if that helps.

As for the Jeeps use, it's a daily driver, that sees a fair bit of offroad, but I don't do a lot of mud/water, more into the rocks...If I wanted a mud bogger I would have built some huge F$&% off FORD/CHEV/DODGE with some 500ci+ motor and tires entirely too big for any other use.

Thanks again for all the help and the entertainment :D

Booger 04-25-2009 08:15 AM

I'll point it out for you taz, you just don't know electric. They are not used in housing in pairs, those are 3-way switches, used to control lighting, etc from two locations. The ONLY place I've seen a DP/ST swithch used in a house was for the water heater, for a disconnect. DP/ST switches are not center position off and these are only rated as high as 30 amp A/C power and used on water heaters. I've installed many DP/DT center position off, but they were momentary contact used for lighting contactors or for some other controlling mechanism, but they returned to the center position by themselves. Even Sarah Palin says you are as full of it as the pile you sit upon. Just remember we're not in Kansas anymore ToTo. If your drawings are that good throw one up here and show the man how it should be done.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"

TeamRush 04-25-2009 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544308)
I'll point it out for you taz, you just don't know electric. They are not used in housing in pairs, those are 3-way switches, used to control lighting, etc from two locations. The ONLY place I've seen a DP/ST swithch used in a house was for the water heater, for a disconnect. DP/ST switches are not center position off and these are only rated as high as 30 amp A/C power and used on water heaters. I've installed many DP/DT center position off, but they were momentary contact used for lighting contactors or for some other controlling mechanism, but they returned to the center position by themselves. Even Sarah Palin says you are as full of it as the pile you sit upon. Just remember we're not in Kansas anymore ToTo. If your drawings are that good throw one up here and show the man how it should be done.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"

Correct on all counts!

Wasted typing since taz isn't EVER going to get a grip on reality.. But still CORRECT!

Taz on 'Ignore' is a beautiful thing!
-----------------------

Anyway, 'Oh Sh!t' lights are pretty easy to wire, and I usually wire in a buzzer since I don't watch gauges when wheeling.
Good place for the second circuits on the DP/DT switches also.

You won't want the buzzer active when starting the vehicle, or doing normal driving...
--------------------------------

With three wires feeding the fan, it will be a two speed fan.
One wire 'High', one wire 'Low', one wire 'Ground'.

You will need a two stage controller, or TWO temp switches to power up both circuits in the fan.
Not hard to do at all, and is relatively cheap since the thermal switches are usually under $20.

I don't know how the fan is wound, so you may want to do a little experimentation and find out which is Low Speed, which is 'High' speed, and see what happens when both are connected...

Some 'High/Low' fans don't want the low speed connected when the 'High' is connected,
Others require it, so you will have to find that out before wiring.

It really doesn't matter, since it's just a change in relays to power it up from one to the other no matter what the configuration.

CJ7Taz 04-25-2009 11:11 AM

Actually I was asking TR, but since you decided to show your ignorance of electricity;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544308)
They are not used in housing in pairs, those are 3-way switches, used to control lighting, etc from two locations.

Are you saying that a 3-way is not a single pole/double throw switch? Then what is it?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544308)
DP/ST switches are not center position off and these are only rated as high as 30 amp A/C power and used on water heaters.

Well DUH. If it’s SINGLE THROW, that’s ON/OFF. It would hardly need a second off position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544308)
If your drawings are that good throw one up here and show the man how it should be done.

Well, if you insist but lets do a comparison.

This is the drawing you mailed me to scan for you. It was a starter drawing for an air compressor. Do you remember it?

https://forums.off-road.com/attachmen...est-schem3.jpg


You had the pressure switch shown normally open. It will never come on that way, so I fixed it for you.

https://forums.off-road.com/attachmen...est-schem4.jpg

No trickery these images were posted here on 09-13-2007.

I also scanned the instructions you sent along with the drawing.

https://forums.off-road.com/attachmen...-table0005.jpg

Note in #1, you state the pressure switch is “normally open” when the tank is empty.

In #7, you say to break the neutral to wire the pressure switch on that side of the coil. That just isn’t proper. I emailed you the scans and told you I didn’t want to get involved.

You told me to FIX them for you and post them as yours.

I replied that if I fixed them, they would be my drawing and instructions not yours.


This was what I was working on but never posted because it was too different from yours.

https://forums.off-road.com/attachmen...test-msdwg.jpg

TeamRush 04-25-2009 06:55 PM

I GOT TRICKED!

It thought it was someone posting something constructive on the thread when it showed new postings...

Turned out just to be taz again... :mad:

OK, I'll go waste time somewhere else!:D

JeepDawg 04-25-2009 07:17 PM

Ah.....the friendly banter of such good friends.....it was starting to get boring.....

Booger 04-25-2009 08:04 PM

Dawg I wondered when you'd be back. Taz you still don't get it, and never will, go to the electric supply or your favorite hardware and ask for what YOU say is a double pole switch instead of a 3-way (a 3-way has ONLY 3 terminals, how can it be a DP/DT switch?) and see what you get. even a 4-way switch isn't a double pole switch, and it has 4 terminals. As far as e-mail goes you never sent me anything saying you didn't want to be involved you just wanted to be sure I wasn't Teamrush or Aron871 cause you didn't want to give up your address cause you didn't want 50 pizza's showing up at your door. Besides I copied my drawing straight off the back inside cover of a Cutler Hammer starter and you still said it was wrong, explain that, and you say you can read/write drawings, you're still sitting high up on that pile of Dung there bud. Even YOUR drawing is wrong, nothing is protecting the control circuit and/or the equipment the starter is wired too.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"

CJ7Taz 04-25-2009 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544341)
Taz you still don't get it, and never will, go to the electric supply or your favorite hardware and ask for what YOU say is a double pole switch instead of a 3-way (a 3-way has ONLY 3 terminals, how can it be a DP/DT switch?) and see what you get.

I said SINGLE POLE/DOUBLE THROW NOT DOUBLE POLE.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CJ7Taz (Post 1544324)
Are you saying that a 3-way is not a single pole/double throw switch? Then what is it?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544341)
even a 4-way switch isn't a double pole switch, and it has 4 terminals.

Sure it is. The number of external terminals doesnít define it. It is jumpered internally for a special purpose. There was no need to bring all 6 terminals out.

Go here

Scroll down to this chart
https://forums.off-road.com/attachmen...t-switches.jpg

This just ain't that hard.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544341)
... you just wanted to be sure I wasn't Teamrush or Aron871 cause you didn't want to give up your address cause you didn't want 50 pizza's showing up at your door.

That part is true.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544341)
Besides I copied my drawing straight off the back inside cover of a Cutler Hammer starter and you still said it was wrong,

You didnít copy very well but still, the problem is, with the pressure switch wired normally open, the compressor wonít start if the pressure is below the set point. If the pressure is above the set point, the compressor will continue to run until the compressor locks up or something explodes letting the pressure fall below the set point.

Another problem was switching the neutral with the pressure switch in violation of the National Electrical Code.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544341)
Even YOUR drawing is wrong, nothing is protecting the control circuit and/or the equipment the starter is wired too.

Do you mean as in fusing or circuit breaker protection? No you didnít include any so I didnít either. It doesnít require any additional branch fusing if fed from a properly protected circuit from the breaker box.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544341)
As far as e-mail goes you never sent me anything saying you didn't want to be involved ...

Yeah, I did. Iíve still got it in my Sent Items box.
Quote:

Beyond that, I donít think I want to get involved. There are some things I donít agree with both in the way it is shown in the drawing and described in the notes.
The problem may have been that there were 5 attachments and you were on dial up. I followed up with another e-mail to make sure you got them.

You replied;
Quote:

No I didn't get everything, you don't have to send it back to me, I know how they work and are set up to work.
I didnít know that you didnít get the body of the message. I thought you were just missing the attachments.

RRich 04-26-2009 06:39 AM

I turned off the ignore I had on TAZ a moment to see the banter - as usual, just his nonsense.

He He - can you guys picture Taz's Jeep? (If he really has one instead of just rode in one once.) By his comments he seems to use house type electrical components.

But just two questions:

TAZ - Do you use Romex or Aluminum Conduit for all your wiring?
Are your lights hooked to just one, or separate dimmers? It's obvious what's dim, but I mean your Jeeps headlights.

Booger 04-26-2009 09:11 AM

Read your original posts. You can pull up and print someone elses drawings but that still tells me you just don't understand electric. I call the white wire the neutral, force of habit, the NEC does allow different colored wiring to be whatever you want it to be thats why we have marking tape in the electric supply house. By the way where is the drawing I asked you to post to help this gentleman out? Now all of a sudden you changed the thread to wiring air compressors, whats up with that? If a 3 way IS what you say, then why are there sooooooo many different switches to perform different functions? Why are you soooo afraid to admit you are wrong, when you are? Bad home life got you down, wife beating you tooooo many times a day so you have to come on line and bother others with your dribble. What happens with a 2 wire switchleg when the neutral is a hot? All code approved. Taz or should I say Spaz, your posts are more suited for humor and nothing more. I would never follow any advise from you on a bet.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"

CJ7Taz 04-26-2009 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544352)
I call the white wire the neutral, force of habit, ...

That can cause you trouble.

And there it did.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544352)
What happens with a 2 wire switchleg when the neutral is a hot?

The neutral is not hot, the WHITE WIRE IS HOT. It is not a neutral.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544352)
If a 3 way IS what you say, then why are there sooooooo many different switches to perform different functions?

I donít know what a 3-way being what I say it is has to do with different switches to perform different functions. The latter answers itself.

If a 3-way isnít what I say it is, are there not different switches to perform different functions? Are you drunk already this morning or still? Youíre not making sense.

Booger 04-26-2009 01:17 PM

Nope, don't drink, yep proves what I've said alllllll along, YOU just don't understand/get it, or comprehend electricity. IF, YOU knew anything about electricity, all of what I've said does make sense and a "REAL" electrician would understand. Sooooooooooo how bout that drawing to help this fella out, or is that to much for you.

BOOGER

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"

CJ7Taz 04-26-2009 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544356)
Nope, don't drink, yep proves what I've said alllllll along, YOU just don't understand/get it, or comprehend electricity.

You should have realized that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I assumed a temporary alcohol induced deficiency. The other choice is a permanent deficiency caused by a feeble mind.

For your last comment regarding “when the neutral is a hot”, this is how the National Electrical Code 2008 Edition defines neutral conductor and neutral point in ARTICLE 100—DEFINITIONS.

Quote:

Neutral Conductor. The conductor connected to the neutral
point of a system that is intended to carry current under
normal conditions.

Neutral Point. The common point on a wye-connection in
a polyphase system or midpoint on a single-phase, 3-wire
system, or midpoint of a single-phase portion of a 3-phase
delta system, or a midpoint of a 3-wire, direct-current
system.

FPN: At the neutral point of the system, the vectorial sum
of the nominal voltages from all other phases within the
system that utilize the neutral, with respect to the neutral
point, is zero potential.
Section 200.7C addresses the use of the white wire in a cable assembly as other than a grounded conductor.
Quote:

200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or
with Three Continuous White Stripes.

(A) General. The following shall be used only for the
grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in
200.7(B) and (C):

(1) A conductor with continuous white or gray covering

(2) A conductor with three continuous white stripes on
other than green insulation

(3) A marking of white or gray color at the termination

(B) Circuits of Less Than 50 Volts. A conductor with
white or gray color insulation or three continuous white
stripes or having a marking of white or gray at the termination
for circuits of less than 50 volts shall be required to
be grounded only as required by 250.20(A).

(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or more. The use of insulation
that is white or gray or that has three continuous white
stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits
of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1)
through (3).

(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is
permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded
conductor, by painting or other effective
means at its termination, and at each location where the
conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall
encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than
white, gray, or green.

(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor
for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and
the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking
of three continuous white stripes is used for the
supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications,
the conductor with white or gray insulation or with
three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified
to indicate its use by painting or other effective
means at its terminations and at each location
where the conductor is visible and accessible.

(3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified
by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous
white stripes or by any other means permitted by
400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment
permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible
cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is
supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.

FPN: The color gray may have been used in the past as an
ungrounded conductor. Care should be taken when working
on existing systems.
For all of your unjustified and unsubstantiated person attacks, we’ve found you don’t know diddly-squat. You don’t know the terminology and you don’t know code. You are not now nor have you ever been and electrician. I have come to believe, with the ability to be anything you want to be on the internet, you decided to pose as one here, although the act may have gone on for some time before that.


NO, it would not be difficult for me to supply him a wiring diagram but that is not what he requested.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthog (Post 1544145)
Now I am no wiring genius, but I can follow instructions pretty accurately.

He described what he wanted as;
Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthog (Post 1544145)
Now what I would like to do is have a three position toggle on the dash as well as have an adjustable thermostat:
position 1 - overide on(incase the the fan doesn't kick on for some reason)
position 2 - overide off(for any reason i would want to turn it off, say water crossing or something)
position 3 - auto(controlled by thermostat)

I gave my answer in instruction form, as he requested, to provide the functions he requested. I did not give it as a schematic drawing not knowing if he could read one.

He has now decided that he would like a more sophisticated system with a multi speed fan and that is his option. It IS his Jeep and it IS his fan. We need some information about the wiring of the fan as to what the 3 connections do. At this point we don’t know of any other way to determine that other than by experimentation and that will be up to him unless we can find that information by other means.

Now I am here to help him get what HE wants for HIS Jeep and HIS fan. It is high time that people on this board change their dictatorial attitudes and help people get what THEY want. Your way may satisfy you but others may want something different. Your way is seldom the only way.

I am also here to give that help in the format he wants and can understand. I don’t need to intimidate him with a schematic drawing just because that would be the easiest way for me to explain it. Recently the word “articulate” has become popular. We need to communicate, for no mater how clear our pronunciation it may not get the point across if the listener is unfamiliar with the language.

Furthermore, it is time people like you quit showing their ignorance with meaningless verbal assaults especially when they have nothing constructive to add to the discussion. The only non-inflammatory remark you made related to the subject was;
Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544209)
The other day when I was in the electric supply they had a whole wall full of SP/DT, SP/ST, DP/DT and just palin old SP toggle and pushbutton switches.

Still you couldn’t resist your primal urges and added an inflammatory statement:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544209)
They are not hard to find, IF, you know what you're looking at and if you listen to taz better have the fire dept standing by.

Are you not yet tired of showing your ignorance or are you so obtuse, you somehow think you are showing your intelligence? It would seem that the NEC and other sources disagree with the beliefs you have been harboring being anything near intelligent.

Booger 04-27-2009 10:19 AM

The same goes for you, all the dribble you spout about your intelligence. I am more of an electrician than you will ever be or know. At least know I know where you get all the "intelligence" you claim to have, you hoard books, papers, whatever and then pour over them to try and find fault with others. The world is not perfect, especially the dream world you live in. In electricity, you can't have the correct colored wiring in every piece of romex/bx/mi cable, etc, and you can't put piping in all the time to pull wires thru so the wiring colors will be correct. One thing I have learned is you can't reason or converse with ignorant people like yourself, and, I stick to my original statement, you don't know/won't ever get it and are ignorant. Its funny how you make feeble attempts at trying to discredit others on this board. Just keep up the good work as the resident/interactive spell checker, thats about all you're good at.

Booger

"Sometimes Insanity and Genius walk the same side of the street"

TeamRush 04-27-2009 11:49 AM

Just taz trashing another thread with cut & paste crap he doesn't really understand...

Since I've got him on 'Ignore', and I KNOW he has no idea of what he's talking about from the beginning of this thread, I'm probably letting the cat out of the bag since I know you guys like to torture him and he can't help spouting off what he *THINKS* (if you call that 'Thinking') or posting up anything he can 'Cut & Paste' to confuse the situation...
------------------------------



Anyway, For the rest of you viewing,
And stated in Layman's terms...

The term 'THROW' comes from the big, old time blade switches like you see in 'Frankenstein' movies and when they 'Throw The Switch' on the electric chair in old movies.
.........................

THROWS are the positions of the switch, If the switch goes 'UP' for 'On', and 'DOWN' if 'OFF', then it's a SINGLE 'Throw'.
Means the switch is only making an internal connection in ONE direction, or SINGLE direction.

The other direction of travel OPENS the circuit, and there is NO INTERNAL CONNECTION being made anymore.
---------------------

If 'Down' is also an 'ON', then it's a DOUBLE THROW.
Two 'ON' positions means it's a 'DOUBLE THROW'.

If you have a center 'OFF', then it's a 'DOUBLE THROW' with 'CENTER OFF', and the switch isn't making ANY internal connections.
-----------------------

If it were a TRIPLE THROW,
The center position would be a connection also, with 'Up' and 'Down' being connections as well.

CJ7Taz 04-28-2009 06:43 AM

Back again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544392)
The same goes for you, ...

Snappy reply, been hanging around kindergartners have you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544392)
At least know I know where you get all the "intelligence" you claim to have, you hoard books, papers, whatever ...

Intelligence, in that context, is not something you get from books. Intelligence is the ability to learn. You either have it or you don’t. You seem to be short on it. You get knowledge from books. Try opening one sometime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544392)
In electricity, you can't have the correct colored wiring in every piece of romex/bx/mi cable, etc, ...

Well, the black, red (or even orange, purple, blue, etc.), is not a problem. The green or bare in cable has only one use. That leaves only the white. Are you now say that the white is not always the neutral? Isn’t that inconsistent with the statement you made 25 hours before?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booger (Post 1544352)
I call the white wire the neutral, force of habit, ...

The white wire does not signify neutral. The white wire signifies the “grounded conductor”. In single phase/three wire, the grounded conductor is the neutral. In other systems there may not be a neural but white wire still signifies the grounded conductor.

I didn’t learn this stuff out of books. I learned it by experience.

I have no reason to discredit you. You are the one trying to discredit me with your feeble, unjustified and unsubstantiated personal attacks. My concern is with the spreading of lies and misinformation continuing the dumbing of America. You might want to promote it. You may have resented the other kids in the class where tests were graded on the curve because they pushed the curve too high for you.

You can believe anything you want to. You can pretend to be an electrician at social functions. You can dress up as one for Halloween. Spread you misinformation here and I will correct it. I have no need to make it personal. YOU chose to make it personal because you lacked the knowledge and experience to keep to the subject matter. It’s a trick you tried to used to confuse the issues.

Warthog 04-28-2009 03:25 PM

WOW....remind not to post electrical questions again HEHEHE.

Anyway, it's probably a good idea for me to test the fan first to figure out what the 3 wire setup is...I can't seem to find much documentation on the Grand Cherokee fan, so it'll have to be trial and error(and hopefully not blow the damn thing up). I would assume the 3 wire setup would mean it's a 2 speed fan though. Also I don't know what the amp draw is for this fan, so I will need to determine that as well.

And TazCJ7 was partially right in his pointing out what I stated, so I should have worded it differently:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthog
Now I am no wiring genius, but I can follow instructions pretty accurately.
What I meant by this is if I was a wiring genius, I wouldn't have to come here and ask this question. But I was looking for a schematic....I realize that is probably asking a lot of someone. But I figured someone else had probably done a simliar, if not the same setup on here. Which is why I figured it wouldn't have been a big deal to post the question.

Once I figure out the wiring on that Grand Cherokee fan and the amp pull, I'll come back for further details.

My apoligize to the moderators for strating a post that caused so much flak.

But thanks again guys, will post back in a couple weeks when I'm home to test the fan.

Warthog 04-28-2009 04:00 PM

Well after reading up some two speed fans I came to this conclusion. This is assuming the Grand Cherokee fan is a two speed fan. What do you think of a setup like this:

Three position toggle(on/off/on). Use one 'on' postion to turn on the low speed with a thermostat setup like this:

Summit SUM-890016 - Summitģ Electric Fan Thermostat Kits

Use the 'off' position to shut the fan off completely. Then use the other 'on' position to run the high speed. Then wire in the buzzer/warning light with the thermostat if the temp goes over the high end of it.

Something I mentioned before in a previous post was a question on the stock 4.0l temp sensor. Is it essentially the same as the sensor that comes in the above linked kit, or do they act completely different. If they are the same could I not just take the reading from the stock sensor?

Thanks....and hopefully this doesn't start another slaggin war :D

Jim_Lou 04-28-2009 04:18 PM

Quote:

My apoligize to the moderators for strating a post that caused so much flak.
No apology necessary - that's why we earn the big bux. I would have locked this days ago but wanted you to get the info you needed. It's in there somewhere. :)

And I'd answer your new questions, but would rather observe the match from the sidelines. Contrary to what you may think, those guys all know some :censored:. I think they just like clanging heads together from time to time. :rolleyes:

CJ7Taz 04-28-2009 04:32 PM

I assume your Jeep did not come with an electric fan and the temperature sensor you have is for the gauge. With some electronics, that sensor could be used to turn on the fan but probably wouldn’t be worth the cost.

The problem with the fan is we don’t know what the connections do. One could be the armature and one could be the field but doubtful. I would expect the fan to be series wound, armature in series with the fields. There could be two sets of fields. There could be just a resistor between the different leads to provide the low speed.

Without knowing more about the fan, we don’t know if we can connect both leads at the same time of if we need to only connect one at a time. For automatic operation, that would require that the relay that energizes the high speed to de-energize the low speed and vice versa.

Do you know what year Grand Cherokee the fan came from? Do you have the pigtail (plug with some leads on it). I did a search on Grand Cherokee fan and found one with 3 wires that was controlled by the ECU. I could read that the black was ground but it was just a small, almost thumbnail size, picture and when I clicked on it, I got “File not found”.

Personally, I wouldn’t touch the Summit kit without knowing what parts it uses. We can use parts you can readily get replacements for at about any auto supply or salvage yard.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthog (Post 1544466)
Thanks....and hopefully this doesn't start another slaggin war :D

At least it’s kept your thread near the top where you can find it easily.

Warthog 04-28-2009 05:38 PM

The YJs never came with an electric fan(except maybe a small one on any that had A/C, although I have yet to see a YJ with A/C).

We'll from what I've been able to gather on the Grands, is that they only put the 5.9l engine in the 1998 limited models....so it's out of a '98. I tried to find a wiring diagram for that year but haven't been able to turn up anything yet. And yes the pigtail is still on the fan.

Again this may have to wait till I can get home and test the fan.

CJ7Taz 04-28-2009 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthog (Post 1544474)
Again this may have to wait till I can get home and test the fan.

We’ll be here. We may be arguing (… er I mean debating) on this same thread but hopefully not.

In the meantime I’ll see if I can find a factory wiring diagram but I’m sure the fan is controlled buy the ECU and it’s not gonna help a lot.

CJ7Taz 04-29-2009 11:44 AM

How bling do you wanna go? Iíve found these while searching for a temperature switch. That 2000 hour low end on the life expectancy bothers me. The price ainít bad.

Found a dual temp switch for a BMW that would give you two speed if that fan you have is two speed.

I think one of the problems you are going to have is finding places for temperature sensors. You already have one for the gauge. You need another to control the fan and another for the idiot light/buzzer. I donít like the ones that insert into the end of the hose. Iíve seen some that just hang behind the radiator but Iím not fond of those either.

Itís beyond the scope of the assignment so maybe you would rather us leave part selection to you.

RRich 04-29-2009 12:17 PM

A thermostat housing from a later model 4.0 - like a 2000 or newer, has a temp sender hole that the earlier ones don't. It's on the top, so it's getting the hot water from the head, not the pump. The housings are the same mounting. Might be a good place for the fan thermo switch.

I just replaced a fan in a 90 Cherokee - only 2 wires - black is ground, white is hot. If they are reversed, the fan runs backwards. The fan cost me $5 at a wrecking yard. May be the simplest solution.

On house wiring and things like that, white signifies neutral - black is hot - I heard it started that way because black is the burnt color you'll be if you reverse them.

In Automotive, black usually signifies ground. Same for most electronics devices. Decent parts houses carry all the variations of switches you'd need for a fan installation, and they don't have to be mounted in J boxes. No, JC Penny does not carry them, neither does 7-11.

Most of the argument here was based on house/building wiring - unrelated to hooking up a fan. Fortunately after the fan is installed on the YJ (that's a Jeep Taz,) you don't have to call the building department to to get it inspected to make sure you had a permit and did it to code.

Jim_Lou 04-29-2009 12:34 PM

Quote:

On house wiring and things like that, white signifies neutral - black is hot
That always seemed strange. To me it makes more sense to have the hot wire white so it's easier to see, particularly in a dark area. I wonder how that got started.

CJ7Taz 04-29-2009 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRich (Post 1544511)
I just replaced a fan in a 90 Cherokee - only 2 wires - black is ground, white is hot. If they are reversed, the fan runs backwards. The fan cost me $5 at a wrecking yard. May be the simplest solution.

If it only has two leads and reversing them makes it run backwards, that would indicate a permanent magnet field.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RRich (Post 1544511)
On house wiring and things like that, white signifies neutral ...

As I stated, WHITE signifies the grounded conductor. For single phase/three wire, as commonly used in house wiring, the grounded conductor is the neutral but not so on all systems.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RRich (Post 1544511)
In Automotive, black usually signifies ground. Same for most electronics devices.

Make that battery powered electronic devices.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RRich (Post 1544511)
Decent parts houses carry all the variations of switches you'd need for a fan installation, ...

So does Radio Shack and most hardware stores.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RRich (Post 1544511)
... and they don't have to be mounted in J boxes. No, JC Penny does not carry them, neither does 7-11.

Now was that necessary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRich (Post 1544511)
Fortunately after the fan is installed on the YJ (that's a Jeep Taz,) you don't have to call the building department to to get it inspected to make sure you had a permit and did it to code.

Or was that?

Still, fires are so inconvenient.

RRich 04-29-2009 04:38 PM

Jim - An old electrician told me about the black being hot when I was a kid. Yes, we did have electricity back then.

Taz, yes that was necessary since you were quoting electrical codes, obviously YOU had Jeeps and buildings mixed up. If you knew the difference between a Jeep and a building, why did you bother to show building codes?
The poster has a Jeep to put the fan in, not a building. Look at post #1.

Black as ground - Not just battery operated devices, TVs, radios, computers, aircraft, spacecraft, industrial machines, etc. often use black to signify a ground or return.
Using a battery does not change Ohms Law for the rest of the world.


Permanent magnets? Maybe so, I didn't look to see how old they were. You'd rather have something more complicated? (on a Jeep!)
KISS!

CJ7Taz 04-29-2009 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRich (Post 1544527)
Taz, yes that was necessary since you were quoting electrical codes, obviously YOU had Jeeps and buildings mixed up. If you knew the difference between a Jeep and a building, why did you bother to show building codes?

Somebody came along and made some claims about knowing and not knowing electricity and being an electrician or not.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RRich (Post 1544527)
Permanent magnets? Maybe so, I didn't look to see how old they were. You'd rather have something more complicated? (on a Jeep!)
KISS!

More powerful. Series wound like your starter and my Warn winch. Never had a reason to take a wiper or blower motor apart so I won’t make any predictions there. Not really more complicated, they just wrap the wire to the armature around the field pieces.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:07 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1994-2009, VerticalScope Inc. // Off Road forums & discussion groups sitemap
side by side | atv | dirtbike | snowmobile | sandsport | competition | land use | Jeep | Toyota | Ford | GM

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome