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post #1 of (permalink) Old 06-07-2007, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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OT...AR 15/M-16 Fans, take a look here...

I've been running one of these new bolts for about a year now and I'm a believer!
Stoppages, and particularly inaccurate head spacing from the bolt doing stupid stuff when it closes, are a thing of the past with this little dude... No more hand feeding for long range accuracy with an AR-15!



Web Site...
New Bolt Design for AR-15

With the added extractor pressure it will extract rounds that it wouldn't previously.
If you are a hand loader for semi-autos, you know what I'm talking about...
It's the bolt lugs that I'm impressed with...
I shot an 8", 800 Yard group today, all strung out horizontally (that means wind was the only factor, and we did have a stiff breeze at the time)...
I had several 10" groups with the same 'Premium' (off the shelf 'match' rounds) 77 grain bullets.

FINALLY, a production bolt that doesn't require you to do 30 hours of work to the bolt and chamber to get the thing shooting!
This is a newer style production barrel and chamber nut, assembled when I got it. I've not bothered to do anything but lapp the bolt in for head space and shoot the crap out of the thing!

NO MORE HAND FEEDING!
I let the bolt cycle and didn't use the forward assist or reseat the rounds!


If you get one, the chamber locking lugs will close up your head space, so be sure to check it for headspacing before shooting!
A 50˘ trigger job and a off the shelf bolt! The two things that AR did wrong are finally fixed. I'm so happy!

Last edited by Junk Yard Genius; 06-08-2007 at 01:52 PM.
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 06-07-2007, 09:09 PM
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did i miss the part where you tell up who makes the bolt and where one can find it?

i'm not in the market for that right now.....but its certainly interesting enough to investigate further

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post #3 of (permalink) Old 06-07-2007, 09:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junk Yard Genius View Post
I shot an 8", 800 Yard group today, all strung out horizontally (that means wind was the only factor, and we did have a stiff breeze at the time)...
I had several 10" groups with the same 'Premium' (off the shelf 'match' rounds) 77 grain bullets.
What is your rifling?... A lot of issues with the AR's is that they're tossed together (Mass produced) from about 95% of the manufacturers... I had a Left Handed DPMS PANTHER BULL... With a Stainless Steel 1" BULL BARREL, Fluted Full Length... 1/10 twist, Extended Free Floating Hand gaurd... Tri-mount w/Russian sniper scope (Mil Spec) = ($1250 Just for the scope)... Competition Grip with Flashlight & Red Light switch... Collapsible/Adjustable stock... Harris Bi-pod (6"-12" extension)... Les Baer internals, (Bolt Carrier/Trigger assembly), Titanium firing pin... 100rd drum... I wanted to get a "Flare Launcher" for the bottom side... But, After spending over $3200 on a rifle which I only shot 3 to 4 times a year I figured I needed to start building the Jeep... I used to buy various ammo from the shops but I didn't like the quality of powder they were using... So, I asked my old man to send me my own personal LEE Reloading Kit (Complete Kit.. Rifles/Pistols/shotguns). My father and uncles used to own a Fishing/trapping/hunting/reloading store... so my father has all of the goodies and info needed packed away.... After my kit arrived I started using his books/charts and loading my own rounds with quality powder... I'll dig the powder numbers out if anybody is interesed... You could spend the money for Hornady Rounds or you could take an hour or so to reload you shells (Once you find the best suited weights/grains per rifle etc)... I have numbers that I should dig out of storage... On a calm low humidity day we shot 300 yards on an incline from a bench using the bi-pod and a stock-rest and we kept our rounds with-in 1 3/8".... My fathers pattern was tight! mine measured 1 3/8" edge to edge... He also had a feather trigger in it... (I could've sworn if the wind would've blown at all... mother WIND would've been tossing rounds down range).
Ahhhh I wish I never sold my Rifle.... Oh-well, now it's time for an up-grade maybe an AR-10 or an STG58 Complete custom with maximum capacity... hahaha OR BIG BERTHA.... The Barrett 50 cal... with clip. (These newer rifles are becoming just as accurate if not more than the older style bolt actions).
So many choices... (My Aunt priced me a Barrett 50 Cal with clip for $5600... her price)... TEMPTATIONS.... I'd have to sell my Jeep so my ole' lady wouldn't kill me...
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 06-07-2007, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
 
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Sorry, I added it to the first post too...

New Bolt Design for AR-15

There is more than one compay making the 'Beaver Tail' dual extractor design, but his little stainless dude seems to work great for long range 'Pumped Up' rounds.

------------------

[email protected],

Quote:
What is your rifling?...
1/9" for 77 grain, 1/7 for 99 grain.

I suggest you grow up a little if you are going to join in on conversations here. Lots of us have several years in this stuff, and we can smell the BS a mile away...

Just a frendly bit of advice...

Last edited by Junk Yard Genius; 06-07-2007 at 11:39 PM.
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 02:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junk Yard Genius View Post
Sorry, I added it to the first post too...

New Bolt Design for AR-15

There is more than one compay making the 'Beaver Tail' dual extractor design, but his little stainless dude seems to work great for long range 'Pumped Up' rounds.

------------------

[email protected],





I suggest you grow up a little if you are going to join in on conversations here. Lots of us have several years in this stuff, and we can smell the BS a mile away...

Just a frendly bit of advice...
No BS here... I'm a Machinist by trade not a gun techy/guru... I like certain things (Guns) and the DPMS Panther Bull back in the day caught my eye and I had the bug... Hence... all the money I spent on it... As for the Les Baer Internals... I honestly didn't see any difference in action/performance.. occasional jam... But, what I had is exactly that... (What I had! ) I paid roughly $1500 for the Left handed DPMS through my Aunts gun shop....
Oh-wait, my bad My DPMS didn't have the Russian scope it had the Zeiss... Damn, brain fart.. but if want to call it BS then it's all good My old mans 7mm Mag has the russian scope... Ooops I even have an old Polish made 6.5x55 with the flip up sites.... that gun is extremely accurate for being so old... but then again the bullet design/weight is better than the .223. We even had a 30-06 mil spec bolt action with Armor piercing rounds..(Stamped Den 42... w/Red primer).. I believe these were 180 gr... But once again Not certain...
You mentioned 1/9" for 77 grain, 1/7 for 99 grain.... What powder are you using?... And what's the muzzle velocity? Or what you believe it to be if you are re-loading your own rounds?.. What type/brand or make of bullets are you using as-well?...
As for keeping a tight pattern with self loaded rounds and having the guns basically clamped and dialed on the table... Dude, it isn't hard nor is it rocket science. That's how we check the accuracy of our rounds... Ideally we'd be on flat land to get "MORE" accurate results but where we are.. the incline isn't too bad.. definitely noticeable but you tend to know or have a good where it's going to hit if you shoot enough. When we Did our re-loads humidity played a part... (Whether or not we did any at all)... if it was too humid we wouldn't re-load... let-a-lone pull the powders from the cool/dry box... Some people laugh and say the humidity or the "slight moisture" in the air won't bother etc... And I totally agree in most cases... my old man was a stickler... he was really anal-retentive when it came to re-loading, it was his way, his thoughts.. and I went with it)... Anway, My AR-15 had a 1-10 twist... We knew that the 1-14 twist didn't hold well over the long range... 1-12 twist was if you want to say "Better"... and I didn't want either... I didn't want anything too low.. And then I seen the DPMS with the optional 1-10 twist... And I thought, "Well, I never shot a 1-10 twist"... and Walla... A month later after I got back from my deployment I picked up my toy dropped more $$$$ in and on it... and that was my weekend joy
Anyway... if you're using the 70gr are you using the Semi Spitzers... or are you using the Spitzer or FMJ?... Either way all of These Bullets have a ****ty BC.. But then again that's why they're not used much if at all for long range shooting... And you being a "GUN GUY" probably knows why with all of the "ins" and "outs"... What was your bullet drop at 800 yrds?...
99gr huh? give me some specs if you would.
post #6 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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First off,
I can tell by the way you write, you have been around someone that knows what they are doing, but you didn't pick it up quite correctly...
Listening intently isn't the same as spending hundreds of hours at the range or in front of the reload press trying to get this stuff right....

Secondly,
I'm not trying to be a jerk here (Which I do quite easily...)
but being around someone and picking things up second hand isn't the same as being there and doing this yourself....

Sweating your ass off, or freezing in the rain at Camp Perry, or at one of the IPSC shoots, praying you have the right rounds for the environmental factors that day, or hoping you brought heavy enough rounds to buck the wind that kicked up in the afternoon is a lot different than cranking out a few rounds and pissing them into the wind at a gun range somewhere where there isn't anything at stake...

Humidity as a factor.
Humidity doesn't effect the powder on reloading because most of use do our reloading indoors, in air conditioned buildings with controlled humidity...
Most powder containers are stored in the same air conditioned building as the brass & press, so humidity isn't a real factor in reloading.

Humidity does effect the flight characteristics of the bullet.
Moist air is heavier, more dense, and will slow the bullet in it's flight path.

Almost everyone I know uses an IMR or equivalent stick powder, and stick powder is moisture sealed so it doesn't absorb small amounts of moisture from the air...
That's also why we seal the primers and bullet in the cases, so moisture isn't a factor.

This is just one example of what I'm talking about...
---------------------------

Quote:
You could spend the money for Hornady Rounds or you could take an hour or so to reload you shells (Once you find the best suited weights/grains per rifle etc)... I have numbers that I should dig out of storage...
I'd like to see the guy that can knock out rounds for my shooting in an hour...
By the time you clean/polish the cases, weigh the cases, size the cases, size the primer pockets, size the primer holes, neck the cases, gauge the cases, weigh the cases again, Lube the cases,...
Test the primers, install the primers, crimp the primers, seal the primers, wait for the sealer to dry,...
Weight the bullets, measure the powder, powder the cases, install the bullet, crimp the cases. seal the bullet/case, size and weigh the cartridge again...
Then there is the paper work...
Documentation is everything when developing and building consistent loads for any particular rifle.

As for your press comments, every single one of the people I know that shoot long range competitively would never use a Lee reloading press...
Lee is fine for hunting or target rounds, but isn't anywhere near accurate enough for competition rounds...
And there is no one that would use a progressive press that would bang out 300 rounds in an hour!
---------------------------

Quote:
On a calm low humidity day we shot 300 yards on an incline from a bench using the bi-pod and a stock-rest and we kept our rounds with-in 1 3/8"....
1-3/8" at 300 yards...
I'd have to see that to believe it with a DPMS upper and bull barrel on a DPMS lower...
DPMS is well known for it's slop between the upper and lower.
There is no way, Especially with a sloppy CAR stock and off a solid bipod on a hard surface... Not to mention the cantilevered Harris bipod you said you had.
You described an absolutely worst case scenario for trying to do any pin point shooting at distance...

DPMS barrels MUST to be stroked where they will shoot 1 MOA groups, and I've done a bunch of them... And I hang with guys that have done bunches of them...
1 MOA at 300 yards from a fixture & tunnel.
(taking the human element out, and taking all error from hardware, like bipods, shaky tables, wind, radiation updraft, ect...)
The best you could do was about 3" with a 1 MOA rifle at 300 yards.

Now, a good 24" hammer forged, 1 MOA fixture barrel may do 1" at 300 Yards... (or less)
And a 24" hammer forged Ordnance steel barrel (Not stainless) on a hand built chassis off sand bags may be able to do 3" at 300 Yards,
But there is no way a DPMS rifle with a short stainless bull barrel, off a bipod on a hard surface, with a short, shaky CAR stock would...

If you actually turned in a 1-3/8" group at 300 Yards with that rifle, you need to frame that target, because it's never going to happen again as long as you live!
-------------------

Now, as for your ammo question...
Most of us that aren't competing in extreme shooting events, buy 'Off The Shelf' ammo now.
Horniday and Black Hills are both making very good 'Match' ammo that shoots as consistently as anything you can hand load unless you take it to the extreme.
Horniday TAP ammo, in particular, is working very well in my .308 AR-10 and in my turn bolt rifles.
Black Hills and Horniday TAP are running neck in neck in the AR-15's with no blockages or stoppages.
The problem now is getting it.
Most of the Horniday and Black Hills ammo in .308 and .223 is going to the middle east for our snipers...

No more hours jerking off the reloading press, no more measuring, weighing, trickling powder until you are blind...
Just walk in and get 20 rounds for around $15 and you are off to the races!
I even shoot the off the shelf stuff out to about 600 yards at some of the smaller competitions...
--------------------

And just for future points of reference,
You can ask a long range competitor what load & bullet he's using...
But don't expect a true answer. The loads we develop are done by long, hard hours on the range and meticulous monitoring of everything that goes into that round.
Most guys would lie to you.
I'd rather decline to tell you rather than lie to you, because I'm trying real hard not to be a jerk here...
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 12:03 PM
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Schools out.
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 01:01 PM
 
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JYG, what do you think of the Savage bolt action 223's? I like my 300 WM from Savage.

I have to agree on the reloading. I used to reload a lot of handgun ammo on a progressive press, and for NRA bullseye or IPSIC, minor variations in the loads were not reflected in scores. I'm also perhaps a snob, and kinda turn my nose up at Lee. For rifle though, I bought match grade ammo (Norma, because I shot 6.5x55), and saved the brass for hunting loads. A good accurate hunting load takes a lot of effort and you sure don't crank them off a progressive press. Not with all the fussing and measuring anyone I knew put into them. The only reason I reloaded for hunting, was because I could use bullets that were not available at that time from the factory. Way too much work for my liking if you are going to shoot them by the 100's.
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post #9 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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Schools Out?
I hope not! I love talking about guns, especially long range rifles!

I have to admit, my favorite is a .22 rifle!
You can shoot all afternoon on $20, doesn't break your ears, your shoulder or your budget!
Rifles like the Ruger 10/22 are CHEAP to buy, but good little rifles that will last for years and are just plain fun to shoot!

Nothing quite so much fun as two or three guys chasing a tin can up a shooting alley just for the fun of it!

Nothing like banging moving targets and just generally having a good time with a .22LR and a few boxes of ammo!
Kids can shoot them, women can shoot them, you don't need fancy ear plugs, and you can shoot all day and still be able to use your arm for something at work tomorrow!
----------

Everyone makes something for them, and most of it works...
There are people that put $5,000 into a rimfire that aren't Olympic competitors, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why!

You can get into small bore competition pretty reasonably, around $2,500, and the small bore competitors aren't nearly the dicks the big bore guys are...
-----------

As for hunting, I can tell you right now, the .22 LR has brought in more pounds of game than any other type of rifle (and shotguns).
Those rabbits, squirrels, coons, ground hogs and other small game add up pretty quickly!
And unlike large bore guns, they don't tear up the game, more usable meat!
That's not as big a consideration now, but when your dinner depended on your aim, that was a biggie!
Before refrigeration, Dinner had to be acquired shortly before preparation or things would turn rancid... A .22 made hunting economical and practical for even the smallest frame people...

And then there is the field of varmint management...
A .22 LR in the hands of a good marksman will keep the 'Critters' out of the stock animals, food supplies, and from tearing up buildings and crops without busting the budget.
------------

It used to be great sport for us kids to sit on the porch and see how far we cold hit walnuts or ground hogs... Nothing like aiming so far above your intended target you can't see it at all, pulling the trigger, and actually HITTING that target!
Good way to train and build confidence...

Probably why the military had us shoot .22's between rounds at the matches.
Kept the 'Flinch' reflex from getting the best of us and kept our eye sharp.
As far as I know, the only way to get rid of the flinch reflex is lots and lots of .22 or pellet gun shooting...

Nothing like a .22 LR!
If I were stranded and only had one common gun, I'd want it to be a .22 LR or .22 WMR (.22 'Mag')

Even with my AR Rifles in .223 I have a .22 LR conversion kit so I can shoot .22 out of my .223 rifles! Keeps me in practice with out breaking the budget and it's tons of fun!

Now that I'm in my mid 40's, my eyes aren't what they used to be, so I have optics on nearly everything.
Everyone will loose the ability to focus in three plains at around age 40, so iron 'saddle' or 'V' notch sights are out, but any of the optics or a far rear 'Peep' or aperture sight is always a good thing!
When we are out 'Plinking' I use the no magnification 'red dot' sight on the 10/22 rifles so it's fair... But everyone thinks I'm using magnification optics for some reason...:eyeroll:
--------------

Anyway, like I said, I hope this isn't the end of the conversations about guns!
We used to have some pretty good conversations about guns here once in a while, but that has slowed down quite a bit...
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post #10 of (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
JYG, what do you think of the Savage bolt action 223's? I like my 300 WM from Savage.
Savage .223 will have to be selected by application, just like any 'Varmint' rifle.
Figure out what you are going to do with it, short/intermediate ranges (under 400 yards) or long range (over 500 to 1,000 yards)...
Light weight 'varmint' bullets will require a slow barrel twist and will limit you to high velocity, light weight bullets that don't carry enough mass to make repeatable shots much over 400 yards.

If you are going to try and reach out to touch something, you will have to use a long, heavy bullet (mass)to maintain momentum.
That will require a fast turning barrel...

You can shoot heavy bullets out of a slow barrel (1:12" or 1:14") but the slower moving (2,500 FPS to 2,700 FPS) heavy bullet won't be accurate.

You can't shoot a fast moving bullets out of a fast twist barrel (1:7" or 1.9"). Period.
Fast bullets (3,000 to 3,500 FPS) are light weight, and they simply strip out in the rifling, turning to fragments.

If you intend to shoot 45 grain to about 60 grain bullets, try an 1:12" barrel, you should have acceptable hunting accuracy with a 1:12" barrel, which is what most Savage off the shelf models come with...
I'd try and keep muzzle velocities between 2,900 and 3, 150 when I was first starting to look for the sweet spot on a hand load...
You may find you can go faster accurately, but his will give you a real solid starting point if you decide to try one with a 1:12" barrel.

Don't forget to CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN that barrel, then break it in correctly, no matter if it's used!
There is no rifle in the world that couldn't use a good barrel stripping/cleaning and burnishing with mid power, jacketed ammo.... (including mine!)
---------------

I like savage for one big ole' reason that most people hate it...
That big, beautiful barrel nut!
Most people hate it because they think it's ugly!.
Shows what they know!

Any caliber barrel that shares the same bolt face size is three minutes away with that barrel nut.
Drop the stock, loosen the barrel nut, remove the barrel...
Insert the new caliber barrel, thread in until you get the correct headspace, tighten the barrel nut, put the stock back on and you are ready to go...

No chamber reamers to set headspace, no silly sh!t...
And you can headspace ANY barrel you can find the same way!
No dedicated barrels for a certain rifle!

Savage generally isn't pretty, but it's simple, strong, well built, and tough in service...
Did I mention STRONG!?
You don't build the same basic rifle... And people still buy it...
For over 100 years without doing something right!

Lots of professional hunters use that Savage...
They have a lot of rifles at home, but when they are headed out in the mountains and weather, they grab the Savage for a reason...
Like the man said, "Savage Rifle and Leupold Scope is all you need...".

I hunt with Remington, simply because I'm never so far out I can't get a cup of coffee before sundown...
But the Remington 700 is a babe in diapers compared to the Savage bolt rifles.
I do wish Savage (and Remington) would adopt a three lug bolt!
That 60° turn and cock on opening would be nice additions!
-----------

As for looks, the Ruger M-77 MkII is a very good looking rifle with classic lines.
Forget about easy anything with a Ruger, the sole exception is the trigger on the Mk II, it IS easy to work with... An oddity where Ruger is concerned.

As for the new rifles out there (and I'm waiting on mine) the new Thompson Center Icon rifles are sweet looking, and finally incorporate things we've needed for years, like a solid top receiver to cut down on twist and Picatinny type rails cut right into the receiver, front and rear of the ejection port...
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