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post #1 of (permalink) Old 05-13-2007, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Jeep rescue vehicle...

Hi

So...

I don't want a Jeep that can crawl up a vertical rock....

I don't want a Jeep that can get through 8' deep mud...

I want a Jeep that is capable of going many places (but not necessarily doing the tricks...ie walls, tons of mud) but would like to be able to be like a "rescue" vehicle. Something that can get to where the mud runners are and help pull them out...or to where the rock crawlers are and weld up a broken tie rod...air for tires...etc...

If you were building a Jeep like that, what would you have on it?

Permanent mount winch or one of the reciever hitch mount set ups?
OBA or a PUMA type compressor and tank?
On board welder or a ready welder type product?

What else...?

Thanks for brainstorming with me!
Patrick

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post #2 of (permalink) Old 05-13-2007, 03:37 PM
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sounds like my kind of jeep! I think that I would prefer a 12v OBA, with a tank. while a winch that can be switched from front to back seems cool I think that it is putting alot of pressure on the hich pin. Id add some sort of GPS and comunications to it also. not to mention a lot of others widjets and gizmos.
Good luck
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post #3 of (permalink) Old 05-13-2007, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
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Hi

So...

I don't want a Jeep that can crawl up a vertical rock....

I don't want a Jeep that can get through 8' deep mud...

I want a Jeep that is capable of going many places (but not necessarily doing the tricks...ie walls, tons of mud) but would like to be able to be like a "rescue" vehicle. Something that can get to where the mud runners are and help pull them out...or to where the rock crawlers are and weld up a broken tie rod...air for tires...etc...

If you were building a Jeep like that, what would you have on it?

Permanent mount winch or one of the reciever hitch mount set ups?
OBA or a PUMA type compressor and tank?
On board welder or a ready welder type product?

What else...

Thanks for brainstorming with me!
Patrick
In a "Rescue vehicle" it should be the best and toughest.

Permanate mount winch, the others are fie, but they are nit as strong and bolting it to the frame.

OBA, spend the money and buy a york set up. The others even the oasis is fine for airing up tiires and running some air tools, but to do it all day you need a york. I use my york like shop air.
The ready welder is a nice item, but again if you want to be a "rescue vehicle" I would go onboard with a modified alternator. There are alot of writeups on them.
What eles,,,, where do you want to limit yourself to? I prefer to have a few guys that specilize in one thing,, Like Jim Lou he is a recovery fool, may not have a cresent wrench but he will have 3 winch blocks!

Ya only go around once, best to enjoy it the first trip.
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 05-13-2007, 09:54 PM
 
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"Rescue" should be left to the professionals.

If you mean 'Self Rescue', as in not friggin stuck somewhere all night, then you are on the right track...

I follow the same line of thinking.
I have a 'Trail Jeep'.... I'm shooting for a 'Well Equipped Trail Jeep'.
Before you worry about all the accessories, think about keeping yourself safe.
Fire extinguisher(s), good cage, good seats, good lap belts and shoulder harnesses, padding on the 'Bone Impact' areas.
A comprehensive first aid kit is a must!

Then think about 'Bullet Proofing' your jeep's drive train and running gear.
A well tuned engine with good compression, good clutch, freshened up transmission and transfer case.
Continue with good 'U' joints and drive shafts.
Finish with proper axles. A good set of D-44 or larger up front, and a Ford 9" or D-44 or larger out back.

Use steel wheels instead of aluminum.
Steel you can bend back into shape, you only get to bend aluminum one way...

Some other things you need to think about are how your accessories are going to hold up.

Dual batteries are always a good idea when you have heavy electrical loads.
Electric winches, power inverters or a dead alternator will stop you cold if you have a single battery and it fails in the field.

I would recommend dual starter solenoids to anyone that will listen!
My vehicle starts so much easier with the extra current from the second solenoid, and I've always got a built in backup.

Dual cooling fans are a good idea.
Electric up front of the radiator, mechanical engine driven behind.
Now if you loose a fan clutch, or break a fan blade it's no big deal.

I run dual fuel pumps, one mechanical, one electric. One fails, I'm back in the game with the flip of a switch.
Also a good idea to have a 'Jerry Can' and siphon hose just incase your tank gets punctured or some one runs out of fuel on the trail.

I have dual ignitions.
One drowns out, or craps out, I flip the switch and I'm back in business literally with out leaving the drivers seat.

I have an electric air compressor.
Small compressor and large tank (or portable, or multiple tanks) will do everything any recycled A/C compressor will do and more (like produce air when the engine can't be run... Remember the dual batteries?)
I have an under body tank for my jeep's requirements, and a portable tank in the back so I can take or lend air to someone.
If you need more volume or a back up compressor, it's just two wires away instead of screwing with engine mounts, belt aligned, oilers, oil separators, dozens of pipe fittings, ect...

The only engine accessories you can't easily double up on is the water pump and starter.
I carry a spare water pump and basic had tools.
I've also usually got a water can on the back with the 'Jerry Cans'.
'Rescue Water' is always a good idea just in case...
It won't be fun, but water pumps usually don't fail all at once, and if I have to, I can change one in the field.

I have a clutch vehicle, so I don't need to carry an extra starter...
(Too bad someone hasn't made a bell housing you can install a starter on each side...)

Lets think about engine hoses, lines, belts, fluids, extra oil and oil filter & oil filter wrench, something to clean up spills with if you break a differential or punch a hole in an oil filter or oil pan...

Lets get to your clutch...
If your clutch goes, you are screwed!
There is NO replacement or quick fix for a clutch in the field...
So, make sure it's up to the job, and if you believe it's weak, FIX IT NOW!

Same with transmission or transfer.
If the trans/Transfer goes, you are screwed! There is no 'Quick Fix' or 'Field Expedient' fix for a screwed up trans or transfer case...
Fix any problems now!

You can carry extra drive shafts, axles, 'U' joints, ect... That isn't anything to sweat about.
Extra drive shafts and axles are something you can find used, so there is no reason you shouldn't be prepared...

While we're at it, what about basic tools, some select advanced tools, tire repair kits, High Lift Jack & accessories like good handle, base plate so you don't sink the jack in soft spots, hooks an clevises so the jack can pull or push things...
'Come-A-Long' type hand winches and wratchet straps will be a big deal of you have to work on you undercarrage or strap something down long enough to get back to the trailer or trail head...
This is just the short list, you should take as much as you have room for.

Then think about what you intend to do with things.
If you intend to 'Rescue' someone that is mired in mud or hung on rocks, then you better have a REALLY good winch.
I'd go with a power steering pump driven hydraulic winch rather than electric on one end.
The hydraulic winces just pull like crazy, and don't overheat like an electric.
No constantly killing relays and solenoids either.

You would probably be good with a SECOND smaller winch you could move around from one end to the other end.
(some times you have to run the winch when you can't run the engine, like when you are on YOUR side and need to self 'Rescue')

Don't forget the chains, clevises, shackles, straps, hooks, pulleys and snatch blocks and other such stuff you will need to make a winch actually functional...

As for welders, they are a PITA 99.99% of the time, but the 0.01% of the time you need one they are invaluable.
I personally prefer to weld off an converted alternator or batteries (if you have two batteries, you can stick or MIG weld right off them).
If you have a good set of jumper cables, you can weld right off them and don't need to carry extra 'welding' cables.
You will need rods rated for DC welding, a set of welding goggles, some gloves, chipping hammer, metal stock for repairs, ect., and you will have to understand some basics of welding before you jump into anything.
Most guys don't understand the basics of electricity, so they expect miracles from a 'Home Brew' welder or portable MIG welder and it's just not going to happen.

You may also consider some things like...
An 'Emergency' kit.
Blankets, rain ponchos, a tarp, bug spray and sun screen, high energy food like mixed nuts, jerky, dehydrated soup...
Also, small cooking apparatus, water treatment tabs, climbing rope & carabineer rated for life support, Emergency flairs for both day and night, some 'Glow Sticks' or LED flashlight that will burn all night for a couple of nights if necessary, a large knife/saw/prying tool...
I always carry an insulated jacket and emergency blankets.
Since I carry a 5 gallon potable water container for cooling system emergencies and medical emergencies, water treatment isn't a big deal for me, but if I spend a night in the 'woods', I want food and a way to stay warm...

The best water container, cooking apparatus I've ever seen is a military canteen, canteen cup, canteen cup stove, and canteen cover it all fits in.
You can have a hot meal really quickly and it doesn't weight anymore than the average canteen...

Since I used to go WAAAAAAY out in the field with only what I could carry on my belt, I pay attention to what I'm going to take, and how many things I can make it do!
----------------

Four years ago, some guys were prairie dog hunting in Montana.
They were supposed to mark the map at the lodge for where they expected to be for that day, so incase they didn't return, someone would have a general idea where to start looking.
These guys had a HUGE SUV with tons of brand new guns and such...
And they didn't want anyone to know where they were going to hunt, thinking someone would horn in on their action...

Someone left the interior lights on in the SUV and the (single) battery went dead in an automatic transmission truck...
Radio didn't work because the battery was dead...

Three guys started walking, and for nearly 55 miles the kept walking, in rain and snow flurries at times, seriously cold nights...
Took them nearly 48 hours to cover 55 miles.

When the recovery crew went back to get the SUV, it started right up because they had finally turned everything off and stopped trying to crank the engine over for 48 hours and the battery had recovered enough to start up...

Moral of the story,
Don't go alone, a second vehicle would have been able to jump them.

Don't go unprepaired, a second battery or a $25 solar battery charger would have had them up and running.
$10 worth of beef jerkey and $10 worth of cheap blankets would have had set up for the night, and the truck would have more than likely started in the morining.

Don't go without telling someone where you are going to be...
They would have been found the evening of the first night if they had marked the map like they were supposed to, but no one knew where to look, so we started with the most common places and worked our way out from there...
We would have never found these guys where they went!

The kicker to the story,
They got fined for hunting on private property and leaving a ranchers gate open!
They should have been charged for the county and state search costs.

Last edited by Junk Yard Genius; 05-13-2007 at 10:01 PM.
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 05-14-2007, 12:09 PM
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[Quote]Permanent mount winch or one of the reciever hitch mount set ups?
OBA or a PUMA type compressor and tank?
On board welder or a ready welder type product?[QUOTE\]

I'll to keep this narrowed to your question.
Permanent mounted winch is probably stronger but not near as useful.
I've moved my reciever mounted winch many times from the rear to save being pulled further into the "problem". Also have carried it down to another vehicle, installed it into their reciever and used it to "self rescue" them. (I have a heavy set of pre-made jumper cables). I've also chained it to a tree to retieve a rolled vehicles and keep me out of harms way. You'll need more cable than your winch spool holds and several snatch blocks (I carry 3), cable and/or strap slings, shackles & chains and tree savers.

Dual batteries are a MUST have item to do much prolonged winching. and if your rescuing at night to support all that extra lighting your going to need.

I'm impressed in the York OBA systems (with a tank) I've seen but the big bucks 12 volts systems work very good too. You'll probably make the choice based on $$$$$$, time and space.

On board welder would probably be my choice due to the space requirements.

As previously mentioned, good communication equipment. When winching someone/something out of your view or calling for more help or god forbid 911.

You will need a capable rig your self: Minimun IMHO
a rear locker
some lift
Good gripping tires (not street)
roll cage
extra lighting
dual batteries
winching hook/D-rings front & rear
usual stuff like axe, shovel, high lift jack, tire chains, etc.

You'll need to carry the stuff they should be carrying all ready but probably not. ...... like
extra oil that leaked out on to the ground while they were on their side or upside down.
water, same as above
spare parts and tools to install them
first aid & survival gear
chain saw can be quite useful too!
and most of all you'll need a good atitude .... you'll be dealing with all kinds of folks ........... good & bad ............. sober & drunk .......... smart & not so bright ......... you get the idea.
I think I'm straying from your orgininal questions ......
Good luck and if no one thanks you for this 'service' be sure that a lot of us are glad your willing to help out.

Rockin on!

"The Heep" 73 Commando, 258 I-6, T-18, Scout Dana 300 w/Tera 4:1 Kit, SOA, PS, Thru-dash Cage, Alcans, OBA, ARB's, HEI, Ft disc, MC 2100,Dents, Mud & Rust.
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 05-14-2007, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
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Hi

Thanks for the suggestions thus far! Keep 'em coming!!

A little backround as to plans...I've got a Warn 9000 permanently mounted on the front...wondering if it would be worth it to go with the moveable...

Was leaning toward a Puma air compressor with a small tank...

Had plans to find a Ford 8.8 with disc breaks for the rear...not sure what to do about the front...

Got plans for a full cage...should be in by the middle to end of the summer...

Was leaning toward a ReadyWelder

Notice the "leaning toward" statements...I'm easily swayed by people who know better than me...

To narrow my "vision" a little bit more...

I'm not looking to do this as a business...more along the lines of when with a group of buddies. I don't have the testicles to do alot of crazy stuff...but would like to be able to nimbley by-pass an obstacle to perhaps get on the other side (if need be) to help someone out...

I want to be the guy who has everything to help someone out...though that's tough to do with the limited space of the CJ7...I need to keep the rear seat with a 3 and 2 year old...and I'd rather not carry stuff on top of the cage...I know I'm limiting myself there...

But keep your thoughts coming!!

Thanks,
Patrick

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post #7 of (permalink) Old 05-14-2007, 07:53 PM
 
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Back seat kills your storage space, there goes most of your 'Rescue' stuff.
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 05-14-2007, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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That's what I firgured...

Any create storage ideas other than top of cage or the basket that hangs off the back in the hitch...?

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post #9 of (permalink) Old 05-15-2007, 02:31 AM
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If I were to build a recovery Rig I would start with something bigger then a SWB Jeep. A J20 or M715 would be a better starting point. There is simply not enough room in a CJ for what would be needed in a dedicated Recovery Vehicle.

Winches: one front one rear.
1. Rear 12000 lb minimum, would be PTO or hydraulic with a dedicated hydraulic pump. No electric can compete with a Hydraulic or PTO for continuous duty. Suppose someone blows an engine, transmission or Tcase at the bottom of a half mile of very rough very steep trail, such that the rig may not be simply pulled out. This could lead to pull after pull with a winch to remove the damaged Jeep. This would burnup all but the most over sized electrics.
2. Front would be Electric with power out. Rated atleast 2 times loaded GVW. Shivs and rub blocks provided such that the front winch cable can be run to the rear over the top of the rig. This winch would be used for self recovery and delicate operations like righting a flipped Jeep. Dual Batterys and heavy alternator would be provided. This would also be used as part of Idea 4.
3. At least one quality cum-along with of 5 ton or greater rating. This would be used for very fine adjustments in bending parts and in moving damaged Jeeps short distances when rigging a snatch block is not useful time wise.

4. Appropriately sized box tubing to form an A-frame attached to the rear bumper. A spender that could be staked into the ground could be provided to use away from the recovery Vehicle. The front electric winch could be run over the top of the cab to raise and lower the A-frame, while the rear winch line runs over a block on the A-frame to get better deflection and or lift stuck rigs. This would be very helpful in the mud. Many times by the time someone calls you they are in the mud up to the frame. Trying to pull a rig out of this situation is nearly impossible. However, if it can be lifted and set branches, blocks, rocks or grates it is often easy to pull out.

5. Rope, chain, cable, Blocks and Tackle. The exact list will depend on location type of wheeling and personal preference.

6. Land anchors. Often a tail holt is needed and none is available. Anything that can be driven or pulled into the ground can be most useful. Metal Grate and concrete forming pins work ok in relatively solid soil and tundra. The grate can also be used under wheels in mud or sand.


Power: OBA, OBW, OBP
1. OBA, on board air, Here it is just about imposable to beat the York with 2 to 5 gallons of reserve tank. It works, It's cheap, and it is proven.

2. OBW, on Board welder, this should be of the SMAW (stick welding) or FCAW (flux core arc weld) types, all others should say home. MIG and TIG rely on shielding gas that is a pain to transport and is easily blown way by the slightest breeze. With these processes a lot depends on the chose of electrode or Wire. These should be chosen without regard for deposition rates or cleanness of weld. The only thing that matters are Penetration and ability to deal with contamination. In SMAW electrodes E6010 or E6011 are good depending on DC or AC, In FCAW an E71T-11 or similar is good. These burn very different then E7018 or MIG so practice is a must, they also produce lots of splater. However, they will weld grease and paint covered steel in the middle of a hurricane.
There are several products that clam to turn an alternator into a SMAW or FCAW welder, in addition many have come up with there own methods of removing regulation to the alternator to make welding currents. However, I have yet to see a picture of a weld made by one of these that was any good. Perhaps there are some but I have not seen any. The pictures a have seen have looked like Bird $hit. Weather this is due to operator incompetence or inadequate welding power, I do not know.
On a dedicated Repair Jeep I would either use an purpose built Welder/Generator driven by the engine or driven by a separate engine. As I have said I have not seen a good bead made by a alternator converted to a welder. I still plan to build a welder alternator on the jeep to see what it can do but from what I have seen I expect pore welds.

3. OBP, On board Power, again there are products that calm to turn the alternator in to a 120 Volt DC generator. Perhaps they work but given that these are the same company's that clam their weldernators do such a good job I have my doubts. However, this combines nicely with many engine powered welders that include a generator ability.

Wrenching: Tools
1. Complete tool set including common hub sockets, Pullers, spreaders and the like is needed. Naming all posible Items is a post or 2 in and of itself and the final selection will depend on experiance and Vehicles commonly needing repair.

2. Since we have Air and Power, We should have Air impact wrench, Air ratchet, Air chuck for filling tires, Tire patch kit, Common Tire tubes, Grinder Air or electric, Drill air or electric, Lights, extra.

3. As part of Idea 4 under winching a solid rear bumper with receiver hitches.

4. A vise/anvil mounted on a receiver hitch. I can not imagine life with out a vise and anvil.

Parts: This will depend on the Vehicles commonly needing help/ parts, and whether this is a for profit, deal or a help your buddy's kind of deal as some of these involve large investment.
1. Good selection of conversion U-joints
2. Drive shafts with long splines that maybe cut for use in many lengths.
3. Common Steering boxes
4. Common TRE's
5. Common front inneraxles with long splines that may be cut to any length
6. Common front outer axles that maybe joined to common inners on an as needed basis.
7. Common Rear axles with long splines to be cut to length.
8. And so on and so on.


In the end it depends so much on what you plan to do with said Rig and what your abilities are that the sky is the limit. How about a fully equipped machine shop to be slung in with an CH-54 Skycrane.

Wilhelm

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post #10 of (permalink) Old 05-15-2007, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OIIIIIIIO View Post
Hi

So...

I don't want a Jeep that can crawl up a vertical rock....

I don't want a Jeep that can get through 8' deep mud...

I want a Jeep that is capable of going many places (but not necessarily doing the tricks...ie walls, tons of mud) but would like to be able to be like a "rescue" vehicle. Something that can get to where the mud runners are and help pull them out...or to where the rock crawlers are and weld up a broken tie rod...air for tires...etc...

If you were building a Jeep like that, what would you have on it?

Permanent mount winch or one of the reciever hitch mount set ups?
OBA or a PUMA type compressor and tank?
On board welder or a ready welder type product?

What else...?

Thanks for brainstorming with me!
Patrick
um..... the first thing you need to do is build a Jeep that doesn't need rescue its self.... you need to start with a very solid trail rig.

Who do you plan on rescuing? Where?

Most of us can't carry enough crap in our rigs to save ourselves. That's why we wheel with like vehicles and combine our resources. As long as someone in the group has a welder, we all don't need to carry one. Same with air and air tools. We all don't need to pack a 20 pound sledge hammer either (get the idea).

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