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post #1 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Metal fabbers - comments?

I saw an interesting show on satellite a few nights ago - got me thinking (Oh No, he's at it again.)

For the same thickness and same material, laminated is stronger than solid.
For instance a solid flat plate 1/2" thick bends and cracks easier than a stack of 1/8" plates totalling 1/2".

The reasoning behind that is twofold - stress cracks that start cannot go all the way through the structure - and the junction between layers allows a little bit of movement.

Extrapolating on this - stands to reason that for - say a tie rod - a tube within a tube within a tube would be better than a tube alone, or even a solid bar.

Right?

Interesting - .5x.120 tube slips inside a .75 x .120 tube, which slips inside a 1" x .120, which slips inside a 1.75 x .120 tube etc.

Comments?
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 10:36 AM
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I've actually seen this done.

instead of using one really heavy wall tube, they used 2 tubes that fit over each other. the smaller OD tube on the inside was slightly longer so they could get a good weld.

i think they just tapped the inner tube for the rod end.....but i'm not sure, they could have had a welded insert as well......thats all besides the point

I havent seen the strength info of solid vs laminate before..but sounds interesteing......if it is infact the case (i have no reason to doubt you, and it does make sense in my head ) then the steering setup would be a great idea....do it

I might just do that for my CJ

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post #3 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 10:47 AM
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I think that to get .120 wall tube you have to buy 4130 or 4140, which is pretty darn strong already. DOM sizes typically run in eighths, so you'd get 3/4 X 1/8 wall. A given OD isn't going to go into another piece with the same nominal ID unless you grind it down a few thou.

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post #4 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 10:55 AM
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I did it, and I love it.

My tie rod is DOM sleeved DOM. The inner piece is 1.25" OD x 1" ID. The outer piece is 1.5" OD x 1.25" ID. We made the inner piece 1/4" longer so 1/8 stuck out on both sides, and then chamfered the ends. We then welded in threaded bungs, and it came out really, really good. I tested it at the hammers a couple weeks ago, and it took a beating that I have NEVER been able to get another tie rod to take. I actually dropped the weight of the jeep on it a couple times and it didn't even hardly scratch it. I'm sold.

Here's pics of the finished product. Obviously, I don't have stock TJ steering, but the concept is still there. I decided to go with heims, too. The knuckles are milled to remove the excess taper and then bored through with an end mill. The steering arm is a Blue Torch Fabworks arm on a milled and drilled Ford knuckle.

The DOM was pretty clean to begin with, and we decided to polish it up for the heck of it. It looked so good that we clear-coated it. I know I'll scratch it up eventually, and then I'll paint it black or something, but it sure looks good.

On the Jeep


Close-up view


All finished!

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post #5 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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I've done a few things already with the regular ERW .120 wall slipped inside one another, but never a tie rod.

I'm not so sure DOM is the right way to go. DOM resists bending, and is considered stronger by many - but it is more brittle. It's the same steel but it's work hardened when it's pulled through the Mandrel.
I've used it in my bender - it's definitely harder to bend - but I've also tried crushing it in my press. Regular ERW can be flattened till the sides touch each other. You can see the stress cracks at the sides where it folded, but it stays together. DOM actually shatters - it never makes it to flattened.
I've bent DOM into tight curves, then acid soaked it - yup - stress cracks!
Once you work harden a piece it really isn't very malleable anymore.

I think for a tie rod you'd want some resilience - bounce back ability. I know some of the aftermarket tie rods are advertised as DOM - but is there a better way?

That's why I'm wondering about tube within a tube laminating for tie rods, drag links, track bars etc.

And - makes me wonder too - frames - around stress points, such as steering boxes, spring mounts etc..
Lamination may have some possibilities.

Comments? This could develop into a very interesting thing.
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 11:29 AM Thread Starter
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Pete - looks good!
The Ford knuckles fit on the Jeep axle? Which Ford?

You now have the 2 knuckle arms like the Terraflex - except yours has the top arm removable/replaceable - just in case - I like that option.

Bumpsteer gone now? Or do you drive it in the street?

I've heard that Hiems wear faster than the typical TREs, true or rumor?


BTW - next time you are doing the Hammers let me know. I live only about 12 miles down the road in Landers. In fact, so close I can get there without touching pavement except for the road in front of my house.
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRich View Post
Pete - looks good!
The Ford knuckles fit on the Jeep axle? Which Ford?

You now have the 2 knuckle arms like the Terraflex - except yours has the top arm removable/replaceable - just in case - I like that option.

Bumpsteer gone now? Or do you drive it in the street?

I've heard that Hiems wear faster than the typical TREs, true or rumor?


BTW - next time you are doing the Hammers let me know. I live only about 12 miles down the road in Landers. In fact, so close I can get there without touching pavement except for the road in front of my house.
Actually, I have a complete Ford axle, from hub to hub. It's a full width Ford HP D44 out of a '79 f150. I converted to Radius Arms and adopted the Ford steering setup. It works really well, but it was a LOT of work. The passenger side knuckle is milled and tapped for a Blue Torch Fab high-steer arm. The track bar is a hybrid adjustable setup that we fabbed up in my garage, and the axle mount came from Ballistic Fabrication. We fabbed up the frame mount from scrap I had laying around.

I have ZERO bumpsteer.

I've heard that heims wear faster, too. I imagine it's true, but mine is a dedicated trail rig that sees less than 1500 street miles per year. I've wasted all of the stock tres in the rig, so it won't be all that much different if I waste the heims, except they're cheaper. I'm using 1" teflon coated chromoly heims. They should last at least a season or two, and replacement is wicked-easy.

Also, it's not the Hammers, but you'll still be right down the road: We're gonna go play at Stoddard Valley over the weekend of April 28th. Come on out. It will be fun. A buddy of mine owns the Team Purple comp rig, and he's gonna bring it out to play. Should be a good time.

If you're interested, PM me and I'll give you my numbers and details on where we're camping.

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post #8 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 01:59 PM
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The reason layers are stronger than solid has a lot to do with surface hardening.
Any steel that is rolled tends to be just a little harder on the surface than in the center. Doing multiple layers will then be a little stronger. There are other things going on as well but it would take too long to explain.

As for the tubes....doing two tubes will only be stronger if there is little to no space between the two....i.e., tight fit. The most common failure is the tube getting hit by something. If you have a space then the first tube can start to fail before the second tube comes into play.

You can actually get more strength without adding weight by going to a larger diameter tube....

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post #9 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 07:47 PM
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I just have the 1.5 .250 wall and its not weak at all. Its not easy to hit but i have dropped off rocks and had that be the only thing to keep the tires from hitting the ground. and it would bow some but it always come right back.

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post #10 of (permalink) Old 04-10-2007, 08:41 PM
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It is a common method with dom. I have not heard of one breaking yet, but I have seen photos of one bent pretty good.

The guys at goferrit offroad were making some type of rod that had an enormous ammount of flex, they advertised it with a before and after pic of a jeep sitting with a hydraulic jack under the tie rod. then an after shot. I haer they are really tough.

Ya only go around once, best to enjoy it the first trip.
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