The 98-cent Solution - Off-Road Forums & Discussion Groups
Jeep-Short Wheelbase All discussion of short wheelbase Jeeps: CJ, TJ, YJ and JK

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post #1 of (permalink) Old 01-06-2007, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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The 98-cent Solution

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I have just read thru the "Stop Carnage" postings and I have to say that the thread is definitely slipping into that all-to-familiar abyss; you know the one, where minds collide and insults result? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spank.gif[/img] There is SO MUCH good info in that thread that it's almost a course in automotive technology all by itself. When you read posts like the "Carnage" one, you first have to tell yourself that: (1) this is not the first Jeep that was ever built; and (2) that Jeeps have used electric starters for years and years with at least decent success; and (3) if statements (1) and (2) are true, then the Jeep in question HAS THE NECESSARY PARTS AND EQUIPMENT that would enable it to be started with an electric starter without frequent trips to the auto parts counter. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Sooooo... the trick is....and this is where the 98-cent solution comes in......to train your mind to concentrate on, and to understand that the first two statements (1) and (2) are true, and then look for the 98-cent solution BEFORE YOU CHANGE THE CRANKSHAFT! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] (That's just an expression, I know the poster wasn't contemplating anything like changing the crank.) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Of course making a good diagnosis is tougher when you have made a modification because you sometimes think it might be your "new work" and not the "old work", but the same rule still appiles; unless YOU ARE ACTUALLY BREAKING NEW GROUND; if the mod has been done successfully many times before. LOOK FOR THE 98-CENT SOLUTION. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] As far as the "Carnage" thread goes,I personally am of the opinion that the centrifugal advance isn't returning to zero as it is supposed to, and I think THAT is where MY 98 cents would go first. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] In the fifty-something years that I have been wrenching, I have learned over and over to ALWAYS look for the simple stuff first; before you change the crankshft. Don't let yourself look for problems that aren't there. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] A buddy who had a fleet of heavy trucks demonstrated this 98-cent solution business to me over and over. As an example, when one of his trucks seemed to have cronic charging issues, before he let his mechanics swap out the alternator, he had them replace the batteries....PRESTO.....end of trouble. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 01-06-2007, 03:14 PM
 
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Re: The 98-cent Solution

It kind of looked like a 'Hairy Buffalo' to me...
Nothng that hasn't been covered here time and time again.
I'm staying out of it...

I tried to get him to chase it down logically in his first post, but a couple of guys chimed in and talked him right out of actually looking at the problem, so I quit.

I'm much happier when I'm not having to shout over two or three people that are chasing butterflies instead of the problem at hand.

This is so obvious, all us chevy racers and a lot of the Ford guys had the same problem for years.
Takes about 15 minutes to find and fix...

I'm happy with dunking my cat in the toilet when he squats on the seat to do his buisness! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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post #3 of (permalink) Old 01-06-2007, 03:17 PM
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Re: The 98-cent Solution *DELETED*

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post #4 of (permalink) Old 01-06-2007, 03:34 PM
 
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Re: The 98-cent Solution



My grandpa used to say,
"You can lead a horse to water,...
But he'll still sh!t on his heels."


I didn't know what that meant until I got on the Internet...
----------------

I like this one,
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics,
Even if you do get a ribbon, you're still retarded."

-----------------

The other grandpa used to say,
"When an Idiot and a Wise Man argue,
Onlookers can't tell which is which."


Appropriate here,... I think...
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 01-06-2007, 04:33 PM
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Re: The 98-cent Solution

98 cents for sure!

Somehow "back to Basics" is a bad word(s).
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 01-06-2007, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The 98-cent Solution

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] What the SAM HILL is a H-A-I-R-Y B-U-F-F-A-L-O???? And as long as I'm asking....what WAS the problem with the Jeep that ate electric cranking motors for breakfast? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 01-07-2007, 01:38 AM
 
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Re: The 98-cent Solution


Hairy Buffalo is when you are too drunk and you wind up screwing live stock.
May feel all right when you are doing it, but having a holstein call you 'Daddy' in the morning isn't cool!
You kind of just screwed your self...

Hairy Buffalo, Cluster F**k, Circle Jerk, F**king The Pig, SNAFU...
Country kid & military terms for screwing up everything entirely...
----------

All chevy racers have had this problem.
When you get too much advance or compression, or slow starter speeds.

Cylinder fires too soon, trying to drive piston back down the way it came in compression stroke.
The engine was designed with a very specific amount of initial advance when cranking.
Jeep even used the DuraSpark ignition which has Initial Retard built in to achieve this.
No one seems to pay attention to that...

Instead of letting the crank roll over into 'Power' stroke.
If it were taking off in 'Power' stroke, the gear clutch would free wheel...

But since the crank, rod & piston are still on the way up, all the force is transferred to the flywheel and starter teeth.
With the starter gear still locked into cranking mode, it blows the starter gear apart.

Some people refer to it as 'Pre Ignition' but that's not quite right, it's just plain firing too soon...

There are two or three ways to get around this, but since it's turned into an insult fest...
(I've just been in too many of those around here already)

Even LEVE got blasted, for crying out loud!,
No one is listening to anyone, so there is no point in trying to get the guy to track down any problems or implement any fixes...

If this is busting cast starter teeth, how much good do you think it is on cast iron rods, cast iron crank or bearings with no oil to them yet???

It's streaching the crap out of the timing chain! You shoud see how violent this is on the timing chain!

When this happens, think what's happening to cylinder pressures!
I'm guessing a head gasket (between cylinders) or a toss up between a cast piston or cast rod going first...

Maybe when it sends parts of the cast iron rods or pistons through a water jacket or oil pan someone will pay attention... (but I doubt it)

Maybe the engine rebuilder will be sharp enough to catch the problem, and if they don't rebuild, I'm putting a bid in on the Howell system!
I'd like to have cheap fuel injection on mine...

Anyway, it's none of my business and I wish everyone the best!
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 01-07-2007, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The 98-cent Solution

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Since there was a mention of noise coming from the dee- stribbder, could there be a problem with the centrifugal advance? Does the Duraspark do that retard electronically by sensing the current from the cranking circuit? Is the root cause of this carnage simply that the initial advance setting is too much? That almost seems too simple, but ya never know when it's someone else doing the wrenchin'. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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post #9 of (permalink) Old 01-07-2007, 02:11 PM
 
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Re: The 98-cent Solution

I think it's pretty clear.

He had spark knock, hard starting and is killing starters.
His timing light says he doesn't have too much initial.

I tried to get him to look at the basics, but he kept getting distracted by others that had him jumping from one thing to another...

Achems Razor, when you hear hoof beats, think horses before zebras...
Since everyone on the thread has too much education to check the basics,

Like verifying piston TDC, then verifying the balancer outer ring hasn't slipped giving false timing readings...

This problem won't be found easily.
If they would start with the beginning instead of jumping to page 643, then to 223, then to 316, ect. they just might find the problem.

To blow the starter gear apart, the cylinder has to be firing at least 70į too soon, probably more like 90į too soon.

My guess is the balancer ring has slipped, or he's using the wrong rotor.
Some Ford rotors were phased exactly 45į sooner, so combine that with the advance numbers he's talking about...
--------

Having the starter in on the wrong distributor tooth and then cranking the distributor around would screw up your rotor phasing also...
--------

A lean engine (like with fuel injection starting sequence) would exacerbate the situation...
(Wonder if that Howell is for sale yet?)
--------

I used to do a lot of supercharged engines.
Supercharged engines LOVE advance.
So do high compression engines.

Lots of advance is real hard on the starter.
Installing an ignition cut out switch would allow you to get the engine cranking at full speed, and then engage the ignition.
Kept lots of starters on the block, if you know what I mean...

Or you could just fix the inital problem... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
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post #10 of (permalink) Old 01-07-2007, 02:57 PM
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Re: The 98-cent Solution

Dave, I thought Hairy Buffalo was an alcoholic punch drink similar to the wine spodee-o-dee that you may remember Jerry Lee Lewis singing of. Hairy Buffalo is made with hard liquors like rum, tequila, gin, bourbon, etc. and has fruit, fruit juice concentrate or even Kool-Aid powder added to it.

As far as the starter thing, Iím not convinced that itís ignition related. Before there were electronic ignitions, we had points. We sometimes used to advance the spark as much as possible for performance. We knew that we had gone too far when it became real hard to start, the common term was ďbucking timeĒ. There was no mention of being hard to start in the thread and it was stated that the ignition timing was 8 degrees btdc at idle with the vacuum advance disconnected. There is always the possibility of crossed spark plug wires or whatever.

Engines do occasionally kick backwards when starting. Updating LEVEís example of the Overland crank start example, this was a common problem with the kick start on motorcycles and rope pull start lawnmowers. The motorcycle kick start injured many legs and lawnmowers would pull the rope right out of your hand if you were lucky. I just donít see the kickback eating starter gears though. As I said in that thread there is nothing to keep the starter motor from rotating backwards and thatís what I see happening.

If the engine was hard starting because of ignition timing, that would cause a lot of wear and possibly fatigue on the starter gear teeth and the flywheel teeth but again, he didnít mention hard starting.

I think at some point something happened to both the starter teeth and the flywheel teeth. The starter was changed but there is still an engagement problem with the damaged flywheel gear. He said heís gone through five starters since he installed the Howell but I donít know it thatís 2 months or 10 years and I just wasnít interested enough to ask.
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